Is Ulster Scots a real language ?

DublinDes

Now since this forum is also about heritage, I thought I'd bring this up. Watching Setanta sports during the ads there is one about this so called ' language ' Ulster Scots that seems to have been ' discovered ' in recent years. These unionist clowns are something else

Ulster Scots Phrase Book

Chapter One - Meeting and greeting people:
Chaipter Wan - Meetin an taakin tae fowk:

English / Inglish Ulster Scots / Ulster-Scotch
Hello! Hi ye daen!
How are you? Whut aboot ye? ('bout ye? -- Ulster dialect)
Are you well? Ir ye weel?
I'm fine Naw [sae / oor] bad
I'm average --> good Mair nor middlin
And you? Whut aboot yirsell?
Thanks / Thank you Cheers / Thanks

What's your name? Whut dae they caal ye?
Where do you come from? Whur ir ye fae?
Where do you live? Whur dae ye leeve at?

Give the site a visit and have a laugh http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

pablomakaveli

DublinDes wrote: »

Now since this forum is also about heritage, I thought I'd bring this up. Watching Setanta sports during the ads there is one about this so called ' language ' Ulster Scots that seems to have been ' discovered ' in recent years. These unionist clowns are something else

Ulster Scots Phrase Book

Chapter One - Meeting and greeting people:
Chaipter Wan - Meetin an taakin tae fowk:

English / Inglish Ulster Scots / Ulster-Scotch
Hello! Hi ye daen!
How are you? Whut aboot ye? ('bout ye? -- Ulster dialect)
Are you well? Ir ye weel?
I'm fine Naw [sae / oor] bad
I'm average --> good Mair nor middlin
And you? Whut aboot yirsell?
Thanks / Thank you Cheers / Thanks

What's your name? Whut dae they caal ye?
Where do you come from? Whur ir ye fae?
Where do you live? Whur dae ye leeve at?

Give the site a visit and have a laugh http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

Sounds like that tv character Rab C. Nesbitt.

To be honest it seems more like a dialect of English than an actual different language.

silverharp

if they could swing it as an A level , i'd be impressed , it would kill the whole education being dummed down

Denerick

Its a dialect, not a language. Nothing strange about that. 'Scots English' is a dialect for heavens sake.

Ponster

It's either a dialect alright but not of English as some may think but of Scots, a different language.

pablomakaveli

Ponster wrote: »

It's either a dialect alright but not of English as some may think but of Scots, a different language.

If your referring to Scots Gaelic thats almost identical to Irish. Ulster scots seems to resemble English. Unless your referring to another Scottish language. Iv never heard of any other one other than Scots Gaelic.

il gatto

"G'waaan te fack and cop yerself awn, wha?". That's Ulster Scots for "I sincerely doubt doubt that it would be considered a language and I am unsure of the criteria for considering such a thing as a dialect".:pac:

karen3212

il gatto wrote: »

"G'waaan te fack and cop yerself awn, wha?".

You see, I think it would be a very difficult language to learn, should it be yersel, or yerself, I must look it up.

On a different note, I'm sure there were other languages associated with Scotand. Weren't there Picts there too. I'll be off to wikipedia now, so I'll fill this in when I get back.

karen3212

Ok, so there were varied Celtic languages, Pictish being a little different to the other two major Celtic languages.

Then various English languages,
and this language: Norn

Norn is an extinct North Germanic, West Scandinavian, language that was spoken on Shetland and Orkney, off the north coast of mainland Scotland, and in Caithness. Norn evolved from the Old Norse that was widely spoken in the Hebrides, Orkney, Shetland and the west coast of the mainland during the Viking occupation from the 8th to the 13th centuries. After the Northern Isles were ceded to Scotland by Norway in the 15th century, its use was discouraged by the Scottish government and the Church of Scotland (the national church), and it was gradually replaced by Lowland Scots over time. Norn died out in the 19th century.

diverdriver

Surely Ulster Scots is merely a variation on 'Scots' which is the language commonly spoken by most lowland Scottish people. Gaelic was the language of the Highlanders. There was a TV programme recently dealing with the history of Scotland which described the difference.

So Ulster Scots is a language as such, although of course in the North it's seems to largely a political attempt by some Unionists to somehow differentiate themselves from the 'Irish'. The language is all but dead in Scotland itself.

McArmalite

DublinDes wrote: »

Now since this forum is also about heritage, I thought I'd bring this up. Watching Setanta sports during the ads there is one about this so called ' language ' Ulster Scots that seems to have been ' discovered ' in recent years. These unionist clowns are something else

Ulster Scots Phrase Book

Chapter One - Meeting and greeting people:
Chaipter Wan - Meetin an taakin tae fowk:

English / Inglish Ulster Scots / Ulster-Scotch
Hello! Hi ye daen!
How are you? Whut aboot ye? ('bout ye? -- Ulster dialect)
Are you well? Ir ye weel?
I'm fine Naw [sae / oor] bad
I'm average --> good Mair nor middlin
And you? Whut aboot yirsell?
Thanks / Thank you Cheers / Thanks

What's your name? Whut dae they caal ye?
Where do you come from? Whur ir ye fae?
Where do you live? Whur dae ye leeve at?

Give the site a visit and have a laugh http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

Well if that's the case theirs just as valid an argument for a Dublin language......

Whacker : " Stooory Anto " - Good day Anthony, and how are you.
Anto: " Bleedin' banjaxed " - I'm feeling poorly today.
Whacker: " Gimme wan of your Johnny Blue will ya " - Could you please give me one of your John Player Blue cigarettes.
Anto: " Doin' the ponies " - Are you going to a betting shop and placing a bet on a few horses ?
Whacker: " Nay, lets have a few scoops " - Lets go to a pub and have a few pints of stout/lager/beer.
Anto: " Bleeedin' deadly " - That's a good idea, let's do that then so.

McArmalite

diverdriver wrote: »

Surely Ulster Scots is merely a variation on 'Scots' which is the language commonly spoken by most lowland Scottish people. Gaelic was the language of the Highlanders. There was a TV programme recently dealing with the history of Scotland which described the difference.

So Ulster Scots is a language as such, although of course in the North it's seems to largely a political attempt by some Unionists to somehow differentiate themselves from the 'Irish'. The language is all but dead in Scotland itself.

" So Ulster Scots is a language as such".....flat earth society time again.......:rolleyes: And what about the other ' languages ' that most of us would call a accent or at most a dialect such as Geordie, Scouse, Aussie, Cockney, Brooklyn, Texan and of course the one I am just after discovering, Dublin or should I say " Dubalin " ? It's great to learn that I understand a few languages taht I never knew before :rolleyes:

The Ulster Scots language thing was just developed by some of our lovely unionists friends as a tacit to block funding for the Irish language in the occupied counties. Whenever SF raised a motion regarding the funding of Gaelscoils, street signs etc the unionists then blocked it saying they wanted equal grants for Ulster Scots, putting the motion into too much expense.

Terrontress

There have been calls by the Ulster Scots movement to have the name of An Garda Siochana to Hannin Polis.

It is definitely an identity different to the mainstream in the rest of Ireland and is a different way of talking although the grammar may be more or less the same as English.

For the most part, the use of Irish in official circles in NI is a political tool. The use of translators in the assembly for example is a pure waste of money. I think the Unionists are just jumping on that bandwagon.

McArmalite

Terrontress wrote: »

There have been calls by the Ulster Scots movement to have the name of An Garda Siochana to Hannin Polis.

Appearently the Ulster Scots translation for special needs children is 'wee dafties'. Serious. Some language!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It is definitely an identity different to the mainstream in the rest of Ireland and is a different way of talking although the grammar may be more or less the same as English.

Yes, just like Geordie, Scouse, Aussie, Cockney, Brooklyn, Texan. But I don't see the people from those places claiming their accent is actually a' language '. In a nutshell, Ulster Scotch is ENGLISH. The only difference being that its typed as the accent sounds. Appearently they had a conference on Ulster Scots, the gathering - with six speakers over the course of a day - was attended by, er, "up to 100 people." Out of a population of 1.5 million. (http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/ulsterscotNov05no4.asp)

For the most part, the use of Irish in official circles in NI is a political tool. The use of translators in the assembly for example is a pure waste of money. I think the Unionists are just jumping on that bandwagon.

To protect something as culturally precious as a genuine language is not a waste of money, most foreigners are puzzled as to why we have such disrespect for ours ( I can give part of the answer, the De La Salle brothers beating the hell out of us ), although I will agree there is a difference between practical spending and wasteful spending.

But still the unionists are also having Ulster Scots at the assembly and trying to throw in having a knowledge of it as a requisite for some jobs.

Ponster

McArmalite wrote: »

The Ulster Scots language thing was just developed by some of our lovely unionists friends as a tacit to block funding for the Irish language in the occupied counties. Whenever SF raised a motion regarding the funding of Gaelscoils, street signs etc the unionists then blocked it saying they wanted equal grants for Ulster Scots, putting the motion into too much expense.

You're in the wrong forum mate. Try to debate the point based on linguistics and not politics.

Hagar

Can't be much of a language, they only have one word, "No".

Terrontress

McArmalite wrote: »

Yes, just like Geordie, Scouse, Aussie, Cockney, Brooklyn, Texan. But I don't see the people from those places claiming their accent is actually a' language '.

Don't black people in the States refer to their own brand of English as "Ebonics" and claim that to be a language?

There are also many varieties of other languages. Swiss German, French Canadian, Pennsylvanian German. Ulster Scots is not an isolated case.

I reckon if the Shinners are allowed to disrupt proceedings by insisting everything be done in Irish, the Unionists should get their tuppence worth.

McArmalite

Ponster wrote: »

You're in the wrong forum mate. Try to debate the point based on linguistics and not politics.

As the OP says, the forum is about history and heritage. But this ' discovery ' is not about maintaining heritage, it's all about blocking the fenians.

McArmalite

Hagar wrote: »

Can't be much of a language, they only have one word, "No".

Totally agreed.

McArmalite

Terrontress wrote: »

Don't black people in the States refer to their own brand of English as "Ebonics" and claim that to be a language?

There are also many varieties of other languages. Swiss German, French Canadian, Pennsylvanian German. Ulster Scots is not an isolated case.

I reckon if the Shinners are allowed to disrupt proceedings by insisting everything be done in Irish, the Unionists should get their tuppence worth.

Well I know there is some form of language encompassing many African words that the slaves brought with them and English ( with a bit of French also thrown in ? ) spoken in the West Indies called Pidgin or something, but it's genuinely indecipherable from English and has been recognised as a seperate language for a long time. As for the others, I think their just dialects, lingustics forum may tell you more.

994

McArmalite wrote: »

Appearently the Ulster Scots translation for special needs children is 'wee dafties'. Serious. Some language!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, just like Geordie, Scouse, Aussie, Cockney, Brooklyn, Texan. But I don't see the people from those places claiming their accent is actually a' language '. In a nutshell, Ulster Scotch is ENGLISH. The only difference being that its typed as the accent sounds. Appearently they had a conference on Ulster Scots, the gathering - with six speakers over the course of a day - was attended by, er, "up to 100 people." Out of a population of 1.5 million. (http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/ulsterscotNov05no4.asp)

To protect something as culturally precious as a genuine language is not a waste of money, most foreigners are puzzled as to why we have such disrespect for ours ( I can give part of the answer, the De La Salle brothers beating the hell out of us ), although I will agree there is a difference between practical spending and wasteful spending.

But still the unionists are also having Ulster Scots at the assembly and trying to throw in having a knowledge of it as a requisite for some jobs.

The scary thing is, I can't tell if that's a real ad or a Newton Emerson parody...

It goes down to the old cliché, "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy". There's no real reason why Sicilian and Tuscan should be considered "dialects" of a single "Italian" language, but Spanish and Portuguese are two separate languages; these things can get very complicated e.g. some argue that Ulster Irish is closer to Scottish Gaelic than to Munster Irish.

delta_bravo

Iim applyen foor de yob foor da translatiin ov dee offisheel parleement busineese. Aye onderstind yar langwage is bollshiite bot I reeley nead a job.

Im already fluent! To me this 'language' seems to be english phonetically translated from a scottish accent with tiny smatterings scots gaelic. Far be it from me to decide what is and isnt a language but im not too convinced. Although it makes enjoyable reading:)

Denerick

Read Rob Roy. 20% of the dialogue is from Highland Scots. If that won't convince you its a distinct dialect of the English language then I don't know what will.

Snickers Man

Hagar wrote: »

Can't be much of a language, they only have one word, "No".

Actually I think it's "Naw", "Nae" or "yer oul head!"

Personally i see nothing wrong in taking pride in a distinctive dialect. It is a neat combination of something that is at the same time a clear mark of one's identity and a means of communication. It is to be celebrated.

But it is a spoken language, not a written one. It's great strength is in the sound of the spoken word. It does not translate to the written page. The written form of it is merely standard English.

There is nothing unusual in this. Several languages have clear differences between the written and spoken form. In French, for example, there are several subjunctive cases that are widely used in journalism and factual writing but are never used in spoken French.

I think the clearest analogy is with music. The standard form of English is like sheet music. It can be written down and should, in theory, only be pronounced in one way.

Dialects like Uster Scots are like jazz. They are for listening to, not for writing down.

Advertising for posts such as a "Temporary chief executive" using the phrase "heed yin the while" just makes a mockery of what Ulster Scots is really all about.

IIMII

994 wrote: »

these things can get very complicated e.g. some argue that Ulster Irish is closer to Scottish Gaelic than to Munster Irish.

Only in English. In Gaelic, both languages are just that - Gaelic. Both countries have CnaG's for for example

IIMII

diverdriver wrote: »

The language is all but dead in Scotland itself.

They use it at Prestwick airport - the offical airport motto is 'Pure Dead Brilliant'

zesman

How can it be a language. It's an English dialect. Nothing more, nothing less.

me_right_one

delta_bravo wrote: »

Iim applyen foor de yob foor da translatiin ov dee offisheel parleement busineese. Aye onderstind yar langwage is bollshiite bot I reeley nead a job.

Im already fluent! To me this 'language' seems to be english phonetically translated from a scottish accent with tiny smatterings scots gaelic.

hahaha, brilliant! Aye, broilleent

the_dark_side

I wonder is there a sign-language version?

the_dark_side

IIMII wrote: »

They use it at Prestwick airport - the offical airport motto is 'Pure Dead Brilliant'

I was there lately, and off the topic... it should be renamed De-Prestwick

Capt'n Midnight

the_dark_side wrote: »

I wonder is there a sign-language version?

Very different forms, catholic version is more like american than the british version , big difference is that ours uses one hand for letters theirs uses two hands

oddly enough sign language is by some accounts the easiest to communicate with to people who don't share other languages

McArmalite

Snickers Man wrote: »

Actually I think it's "Naw", "Nae" or "yer oul head!"

Personally i see nothing wrong in taking pride in a distinctive dialect. It is a neat combination of something that is at the same time a clear mark of one's identity and a means of communication. It is to be celebrated.

But it is a spoken language, not a written one. It's great strength is in the sound of the spoken word. It does not translate to the written page. The written form of it is merely standard English.

There is nothing unusual in this. Several languages have clear differences between the written and spoken form. In French, for example, there are several subjunctive cases that are widely used in journalism and factual writing but are never used in spoken French.

I think the clearest analogy is with music. The standard form of English is like sheet music. It can be written down and should, in theory, only be pronounced in one way.

Dialects like Uster Scots are like jazz. They are for listening to, not for writing down.

Advertising for posts such as a "Temporary chief executive" using the phrase "heed yin the while" just makes a mockery of what Ulster Scots is really all about.

Firstly, WELCOME BACK SNICKERS, things were a bit quite around here, though I did my best to stir things up a bit :rolleyes:. ( BTW, an old friend called Fred has been recently banned, but doubtless he'll be back. Say what you will, at times I find him entertaining )
" Personally i see nothing wrong in taking pride in a distinctive dialect "

Yes Snickers, just like D4 language, " Loike it so totally rocks, man ". It can be studied in - Ross O'Carroll-Kelly's Guide to South Dublin: How to Get by On, Lioke, €10,000 A Day. Roysh.

donaghs

It basically the Scots dialect of English, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language, with a few variations from being in Ireland.
Calling it a separate language is stretching it too far, but is understandable in the context of tit-for-tat Northern Irish politics, and the new promotion of the Irish language.
If Ulster-Scots was so dear to Unionists/Loyalists they would have made some serious attempt to promote during the 50 years in which they ruled Northern Ireland.

getz

Snickers Man wrote: »

Actually I think it's "Naw", "Nae" or "yer oul head!"

Personally i see nothing wrong in taking pride in a distinctive dialect. It is a neat combination of something that is at the same time a clear mark of one's identity and a means of communication. It is to be celebrated.

But it is a spoken language, not a written one. It's great strength is in the sound of the spoken word. It does not translate to the written page. The written form of it is merely standard English.

There is nothing unusual in this. Several languages have clear differences between the written and spoken form. In French, for example, there are several subjunctive cases that are widely used in journalism and factual writing but are never used in spoken French.

I think the clearest analogy is with music. The standard form of English is like sheet music. It can be written down and should, in theory, only be pronounced in one way.

Dialects like Uster Scots are like jazz. They are for listening to, not for writing down.

Advertising for posts such as a "Temporary chief executive" using the phrase "heed yin the while" just makes a mockery of what Ulster Scots is really all about.

so lets take this a little further ,scouse,mank ,geordie, brumie,cockny o and before i forget what about dublin irish lots of books about for the tourists to understand irish speaking peoples

getz

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Very different forms, catholic version is more like american than the british version , big difference is that ours uses one hand for letters theirs uses two hands

oddly enough sign language is by some accounts the easiest to communicate with to people who don't share other languages

the first recorded full use of sign language was by monks in britain in 1644

IIMII

the_dark_side wrote: »

I was there lately, and off the topic... it should be renamed De-Prestwick

It should. It's gas the way the security staff think they work for Ryanair and like to tackle female passengers passing through for having a handbag and another bag showing. They actually make people put the handbag into their travel luggage.. :rolleyes:

Still, it's that silly Brit humour motto (culture aledgedly) or however you'd describe it that annoys me most. Easily annoyed these days, says you..