Wimmin jokes - funny or fallacy?

g'em

Bear with me here, this may be a little waffly (what's new...)

Ever since I started Moderating tLL I've noticed a not-so-subtle shift in my perception of a variety of women's issues. In my pre-tLL days I was (rather ashamedly) bored silly whenever the topic of femisism reared its head in on-line or real-life conversations. I equated the f-word with bra-burning, hairy arm-pitted types who were more than likely vegetarian and whose problems would likely be softened by a good ride now and again.

I'll readily admit that it was a horrifically ignorant view to have, and more than a little ironic given that I'm the first one to start whining and moaning when anyone jumps to the conclusion that women who lift stuff almost certainly look like blokes.

But my opinion has changed rather radically since then, and I've realised that feminism is less about setting underwear on fire and more about recognising what I, as a woman, am entitled to given that I can do many (most?) things equally as good if not better than any given man and the kind of treatment that I deserve as another human being.

I still know very little about the ins and outs of complex feminist theory - and if I was being completely honest I'd admit that I'm not sure I want to know, I tend not to enjoy extreme and unreasonably polar views on any topic - but I struggle to know where 'everyday' feminism begins and ends. Most worringly for me, I'm starting to wonder where feminism begins and my sense of humour (or apprent lack thereof) ends. An example:

Recently I was having a PM conversation with a couple of fellow (male) Mods. I made a comment about how my mind was liable to change depending on the mood I was in. One of the Mods retorted with that boards.ie/ intarweb favourite "Fixed that for ya"

This, of course, is subject to change at a moments' notice and depending on what kind of mood I'm in hormone level.

Now, a few months ago I probably would have chuckled to myself and put it down to boys' being boys, sure aren't they just little rogues yadda yadda yadda.

But actually it irked me. A lot.

I realised that I now see this kind of comment as being some kind of reductionary tactic. Obviously it's not possible for me to be capable of changing my mind in a rational way. Oh no, it must be *dum dum duuuum*... dem hormonals.

I know the comment was made in jest, but I really didn't find it funny. I'm all for having a laugh at myself but this felt more like a cheap and lazy shot (when in doubt pull out the "wimmins are insane with the hormones" crowd-pleaser).

But am I taking this too far? Are these throw-away comments something to be tolerated with a bitten tongue, are they really all that bad, is it being overly sensitive to have an issue with it?

When does being a feminism mean not being able to be fun?

ntlbell

most women get ancy when the decorators are in.

I don't see what it has to do with feminism.

it's true?

Silverfish

Well, I could write all day on this topic, but it appears I've lost my sense of humour along with you

An interesting thing happened in work the other day though.

Something important happened, and there was a few people up in arms.

Two of the lads were giving out YARDS in a meeting, ranting, raving, totally losing the head. That was grand. I got a bit riled up (sitting the other side of the camp, as it were) and in order to get my point across, raised my voice to shout over the ongoing yelling, in a 'WELL IF YOU JUST READ the list there it shows clearly yadda....'

The general consensus was the two lads are 'real go-getters, assertive, demanding, etc etc' where as I was asked if it was 'my time of the month'.

When I took issue with that, it was 'Ah have a ****ing sense of humour' *cue twenty lads laughing their heads off*


So what I learned was, if a man does something like that, he's looked up to. If a woman does something like that, she's a 'looper'.

Like I posted somewhere before:

When you're in the minority, but each one person from the majority decides to make one, or two 'throwaway' comments, they all add up.

e.g I work with 20 or so blokes. I'm the only female. For my first week, each of those guys made one 'throwaway' generic 'women! pfft' joke.

For them, it was one.
For me it was twenty. Times five.

Times 2 years.

So its just not funny any more.

GirlInterrupted

g'em wrote: »

But actually it irked me. A lot.

I realised that I now see this kind of comment as being some kind of reductionary tactic. Obviously it's not possible for me to be capable of changing my mind in a rational way. Oh no, it must be *dum dum duuuum*... dem hormonals.

I know the comment was made in jest, but I really didn't find it funny. I'm all for having a laugh at myself but this felt more like a cheap and lazy shot (when in doubt pull out the "wimmins are insane with the hormones" crowd-pleaser).

But am I taking this too far? Are these throw-away comments something to be tolerated with a bitten tongue, are they really all that bad, is it being overly sensitive to have an issue with it?

When does being a feminism mean not being able to be fun?

I don't think there's much that I'd find more insulting. Its a way of explaining away any difference of opinion, any change of behaviour, any argument, without acknowledging any individuality or validity on the woman's part.

Its horrible, and its something I don't like to let go, and it makes me feel thought of as ''less than..''

I do sometimes tolerate it with the bitten tongue because the circumstances may not be up to drawing attention to the comment, but overall, it's unacceptable to me.

lynsalot

i think silverfish made a good point - if any kinda of derogatory slapstick humour is directed at you for long enough it can wear thin. I would take a joke as much as the next person and "wimmin" jokes at that wouldn't bother me but it would start to grate if i heard 25 comments week in week out - then yes it is insulting and intimidating and not acceptable. I work on a team of mostly girls - 2 men who always get slagged about being pimps, one of the girls, and all of this. They have no problem with it. Now it would never be anything insulting - from our point of view - and from what i can see they take it in jest. so is it a case of the difference of the sexes... men's humour not being understood or tolerated by women - i would think the best thing to do is look at each case separately

Wibbs

ntlbell wrote: »

most women get ancy when the decorators are in.

Some do yes, some don't. If someone does because of that(and previous experience with her suggests that) I won't comment. Unless I purposely want to píss her off.

I don't see what it has to do with feminism.

It does when its used as a catchall to ignore or denigrate based on gender.

I would equally irritated if its used as an excuse for childish behaviour by some women. Quite a few I must say IME. Of course sometimes it is a valid excuse. If I was being kicked in the guts every ten minutes I wouldn't be the font of all niceness or rationality either.

GirlInterrupted wrote:

Its a way of explaining away any difference of opinion, any change of behaviour, any argument, without acknowledging any individuality or validity on the woman's part.

This would sum up my take on it too.

WindSock

I agree it does feel tiresome that for some reason every time I am pissed off it is down to my 'time of the month' and not the fact that the guy who pissed me off is a complete incompetent fcukwit. Funny how I am always at that time of the month all month round though...

g'em

ntlbell wrote: »

most women get ancy when the decorators are in.

But our menstrual cycle is not the sole cause and reason for changes in mood. We, like men, can have fluctuating moods for a variety of reasons.

ntlbell wrote:

I don't see what it has to do with feminism.

It's to do with the perception of women being allowed to have chaning moods and emotions the same way as men will without it being reduced "hormones" like as if we should be embarassed or ashamed and hold oour heads and apologise for our irrational behaviour. And if you want to take a more extreme view it insinuates inferiority and instability.

ntlbell wrote:

it's true?

No, not really. Changing ones mind does not automatically = PMS.

Wibbs

lynsalot wrote: »

I work on a team of mostly girls - 2 men who always get slagged about being pimps, one of the girls, and all of this. They have no problem with it. Now it would never be anything insulting - from our point of view - and from what i can see they take it in jest. so is it a case of the difference of the sexes... men's humour not being understood or tolerated by women

TBH I think it's as much about the fact that men can be more confident simply because they're men. Even on a subconscious level. I have to admit for me anyway(though I suspect for a lot of men) if a woman is slagging me on the basis of my maleness, there is defo a feeling of "ahh bless, silly thing". It's subtle though and not conscious, but thinking about it that's what a lot of it is. It's a different dynamic than if a man is engaging with me. In that case the subconscious thing is more along the lines of "can I take this fool".

I do think we all carry this subconscious thing re the genders that male is somehow better. A lot of women too. If a woman dresses in "mens" clothes, no one bats an eyelid, if a man dresses in women's clothes he is seen as somehow lesser. I think beyond the homophobia, he is seen as lesser, because the feminine is itself seen as somehow lesser, so why would a man signal that "inferiority".

spurious

g'em wrote: »

feminism is less about setting underwear on fire and more about recognising what I, as a woman, am entitled to given that I can do many (most?) things equally as good if not better than any given man and the kind of treatment that I deserve as another human being.

Welcome to the sisterhood.
The (in my experience almost non-existent in reality) bra-burning, man-hating stereotype is the reason many young women will not call themselves feminist while holding obviously feminist opinions. Some men genuinely can't even understand how a man could be feminist.

ntlbell

g'em wrote: »

No, not really. Changing ones mind does not automatically = PMS.

no but it is true that most women or to reduce the generlisation.

the vast majority of women i have ever encountered (maybe i'm unlucky)

get out of whack with things that in the other 3 weeks they wouldn't

so it's TRUE that women do go ga ga during that week

and tbh if men had to put up with it we would be twice as bad during that week.

but the whole feminism thing is getting out of hand

Dudess

You don't have to be a man-hater or compromising of your femininity to be a feminist whatsoever. In fact, those with a misandrist agenda, I personally would not consider feminists. I'd urge women who enjoy what feminism helped achieve, yet have a negative view of feminists, to research what feminism originally meant. Also addressed in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055509588

g'em wrote: »

Ever since I started Moderating tLL I've noticed a not-so-subtle shift in my perception of a variety of women's issues. In my pre-tLL days I was (rather ashamedly) bored silly whenever the topic of femisism reared its head in on-line or real-life conversations. I equated the f-word with bra-burning, hairy arm-pitted types who were more than likely vegetarian and whose problems would likely be softened by a good ride now and again.

I'll readily admit that it was a horrifically ignorant view to have, and more than a little ironic given that I'm the first one to start whining and moaning when anyone jumps to the conclusion that women who lift stuff almost certainly look like blokes.

While I consider you one of the most awesome people on Boards (ha! I've embarrassed you . Conspiracy theorists - it's not sycophancy... well ok, maybe it is, but it's true! ) that is something I noticed about you a couple of times and I did consider it strange.

I still know very little about the ins and outs of complex feminist theory - and if I was being completely honest I'd admit that I'm not sure I want to know, I tend not to enjoy extreme and unreasonably polar views on any topic

No, I think examining complex feminist theory opens the mind rather than closing it. In my opinion, it's having narrow views that leads to the man-hating.

On topic: it depends on the joke. It's a sign of confidence to be able to laugh at oneself, but yeah, those period "quips" are just yawnsome at this stage, not to mind sexist. There's a lot of misogyny on Boards.ie - especially in After Hours - and it's given free reign. Women and female sexuality and the female body are spoken of appallingly but it's ok because it's just their opinion... yet Boards.ie isn't a democracy. Or something.

Right now on After Hours there's a discussion on au pairs - no doubt several geniuses will just have to make "hilarious" comments about how awesome it would be to have a hot chick living in your house whom you could lob it into... etc. :rolleyes:

I haven't come across those type of comments irl that much so I can't say much about it, but on boards yeah there's a lot of that tastless lacking in humour, "humour". The thing is, there's also a lot of "well it's hard being a woman haha mood swings" and blaming everything on hormones and sure isn't it grand to act like a psycho once a month because that's what women do.
I really don't think that's helping anyone either.
I suppose you could add in the constant men moaning "oh I just don't understand women", which some might find easier to write off as just being hormonal, so they don't need to try understand anything about "women" [as opposed to the specific individual in question :rolleyes: ] anymore.

That said if I was in silverfish's position I'd be inclined to give one of them a sock in the mouth ¬.¬
That kind of stuff is just pure ignorance.

so it's TRUE that women do go ga ga during that week

Some, maybe. The majority, maybe. I don't encounter one guy with a specific trait and assume it's true for 100% of the male population however, and it might just be nice to treat people as you find them, and wondering if they're in a bad mood for a specific reason instead of taking the lazy "oh, hormones, I don't have to put any effort in then" route.

ntlbell

bluewolf wrote: »

I haven't come across those type of comments irl that much so I can't say much about it, but on boards yeah there's a lot of that tastless lacking in humour, "humour". The thing is, there's also a lot of "well it's hard being a woman haha mood swings" and blaming everything on hormones and sure isn't it grand to act like a psycho once a month because that's what women do.
I really don't think that's helping anyone either.
I suppose you could add in the constant men moaning "oh I just don't understand women", which some might find easier to write off as just being hormonal, so they don't need to try understand anything about "women" [as opposed to the specific individual in question :rolleyes: ] anymore.

That said if I was in silverfish's position I'd be inclined to give one of them a sock in the mouth ¬.¬
That kind of stuff is just pure ignorance.



Some, maybe. The majority, maybe. I don't encounter one guy with a specific trait and assume it's true for 100% of the male population however, and it might just be nice to treat people as you find them, and wondering if they're in a bad mood for a specific reason instead of taking the lazy "oh, hormones, I don't have to put any effort in then" route.

EH?

so if every guy you met had the same trait but only during 1 week of the month you would never after years and years of the same thing make an assumption?

not trying to fire personal abuse but that sounds more like a learning difficulty to me.

Dudess

bluewolf wrote: »

The thing is, there's also a lot of "well it's hard being a woman haha mood swings" and blaming everything on hormones and sure isn't it grand to act like a psycho once a month because that's what women do.
I really don't think that's helping anyone either.

That's so true bluewolf. Similar kinda thing: on a PI thread recently, some woman was bemoaning the fact that she was 35 and living alone in her own house and single and had no social network... she's lonely and looking for love - fair enough to ask for help. My heart went out to her. At the same time though, she was all "yeah I know, 35-year-old single woman - I'm pathetic".

"Pathetic"? Because some narrow-minded tools say so? Caving into such attitudes is hardly going to cause them to crumble. Nobody ever calls a 35-year-old single guy pathetic - unless he's a mammy's boy. If he's got his own house, he's a "catch".

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

not trying to fire personal abuse but that sounds more like a learning difficulty to me.

:rolleyes:
God forbid I suggest people be individuals. I also said one guy, perhaps you have a reading difficulty?

cbreeze

Silverfish wrote: »

Well, I could write all day on this topic, but it appears I've lost my sense of humour along with you

An interesting thing happened in work the other day though.

Something important happened, and there was a few people up in arms.

Two of the lads were giving out YARDS in a meeting, ranting, raving, totally losing the head. That was grand. I got a bit riled up (sitting the other side of the camp, as it were) and in order to get my point across, raised my voice to shout over the ongoing yelling, in a 'WELL IF YOU JUST READ the list there it shows clearly yadda....'

The general consensus was the two lads are 'real go-getters, assertive, demanding, etc etc' where as I was asked if it was 'my time of the month'.

When I took issue with that, it was 'Ah have a ****ing sense of humour' *cue twenty lads laughing their heads off*


So what I learned was, if a man does something like that, he's looked up to. If a woman does something like that, she's a 'looper'.

Like I posted somewhere before:

When you're in the minority, but each one person from the majority decides to make one, or two 'throwaway' comments, they all add up.

e.g I work with 20 or so blokes. I'm the only female. For my first week, each of those guys made one 'throwaway' generic 'women! pfft' joke.

For them, it was one.
For me it was twenty. Times five.

Times 2 years.

So its just not funny any more.

The name for this behaviour is sexual harrassment. Is there a workplace policy on bullying etc? It is easy to put up with it - but in the end it wears you down. Get back at them by never losing the cool, but request clarification on any perceived put down. Those workmates sound like the kind of chumps who probably would not be able to visualise the insulting statement if a non-white non-Irish national was substituted every time women/'girls' were the target.

ntlbell

bluewolf wrote: »

:rolleyes:
God forbid I suggest people be individuals. I also said one guy, perhaps you have a reading difficulty?

I do as it happens.

g'em

ntlbell wrote: »

the vast majority of women i have ever encountered (maybe i'm unlucky)

get out of whack with things that in the other 3 weeks they wouldn't

so it's TRUE that women do go ga ga during that week

Go ga ga? You mean insane? irrational? Do you see how insulting that kind of phraseology is?

ntlbell wrote:

but the whole feminism thing is getting out of hand

Well the "whole feminism thing" is rather a large topic. I'm simply talking about what is considered reasonable to joke about and what topics shouldn't be made light of at the expense of roughly half the population.

Dudess wrote:

that is something I noticed about you a couple of times and I did consider it strange.

Yeah, I'm actually quite embarassed about some of the views I used to hold. Actually, no that's not true, I'm embarassed at the lack of a view I held on things that affect me quite profoundly. Merci buckets for the kind words though (am experiencing a accute attack of the "aw shucks"'s atm)

Dudess wrote:

I think examining complex feminist theory opens the mind rather than closing it. In my opinion, it's having narrow views that leads to the man-hating.

Hmm, maybe I just haven't given it the time it deserves. I think I was exposed to some fairly misandrist writings at some point and I found the flipped ineqailty very difficult to swallow. I shall re-open my mind and explore it further.

GirlInterrupted

ntlbell wrote: »

EH?

so if every guy you met had the same trait but only during 1 week of the month you would never after years and years of the same thing make an assumption?

not trying to fire personal abuse but that sounds more like a learning difficulty to me.

Are you seriously telling me that every woman you've met behaves in the same manner every month, for a week? Maybe its not them, its you.

And it certainly seems like firing abuse to me, since your stated intent is belied by your words.

ntlbell

g'em wrote: »

Go ga ga? You mean insane? irrational? Do you see how insulting that kind of phraseology is?

I don't see it as insulting as it's the reality of the situation, or has been ime.

ntlbell

GirlInterrupted wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that every woman you've met behaves in the same manner every month, for a week? Maybe its not them, its you.

And it certainly seems like firing abuse to me, since your stated intent is belied by your words.

maybe I'm hormonal once a month for a week? very possible tbh.

not abuse no, just an observation.

Dudess

g'em wrote: »

Yeah, I'm actually quite embarassed about some of the views I used to hold. Actually, no that's not true, I'm embarassed at the lack of a view I held on things that affect me quite profoundly.

Ah... you gotta have at least one flaw.

Merci buckets for the kind words though (am experiencing a accute attack of the "aw shucks"'s atm)

Oh that could only be your hormones...

Hmm, maybe I just haven't given it the time it deserves. I think I was exposed to some fairly misandrist writings at some point and I found the flipped ineqailty very difficult to swallow. I shall re-open my mind and explore it further.

Well yes, unfortunately the penis-cutter wannabes got their voices heard in the form of literature being published... just make sure you're careful what publications you read.

brianthebard

Tbh saying that a woman is acting in a certain way becuase of hormones, whether in jest or seriously, doesn't seem to me to be all that far away from the quackery of female hysteria, an until recently common diagnosis for all this perceived to be bad or wrong or whatever about women. And from there its about half a step to make the assumption that because women are hormonal/hysterical they have no control over their minds. I know some will say this is overegging the situation, but its easy to see what a throwback this hormone issue is when you look at silverfish's example.

Dudess wrote: »

Well yes, unfortunately the penis-cutter wannabes got their voices heard in the form of literature being published... just make sure you're careful what publications you read.

IMO Germaine Greer and others like her have a lot to answer for in setting back the image and study of feminism decades with their carry on.

Wibbs

ntlbell stop stirring. End of. Or you will be taking a break from here. If you don't think you are fine, but that's how it's coming across. At least to me, so I'm watching you and anyone else who starts niggling on this thread.

brianthebard

ntlbell wrote: »

EH?

so if every guy you met had the same trait but only during 1 week of the month you would never after years and years of the same thing make an assumption?

not trying to fire personal abuse but that sounds more like a learning difficulty to me.

If I were to suggest that every ignorant statement you make is caused by the hormonal response men feel when threatened as they get a burst of testosterone, and thus denigrate or ignore your statement (which actually might not be ignorant at all, but well though out) on the basis of said hormones, how would you feel?

ntlbell

brianthebard wrote: »

If I were to suggest that every ignorant statement you make is caused by the hormonal response men feel when threatened as they get a burst of testosterone, and thus denigrate or ignore your statement (which actually might not be ignorant at all, but well though out) on the basis of said hormones, how would you feel?

I'd think you might be on to something there (you could be) and i'd investigate it

radioactiveman

Hi OP
good post, you don't have to be an extreme feminist to see that a lot of guys in Ireland have a stone age attitude to women. In my experience it is done more snidely through emails and things like that as well as just remarks (in the workplace), but it can be fairly cutting.

I worked for while in Sweden a few years ago and they seem to have a very different approach to promoting equality. E.g. I went to an aircraft museum, and they had a special film running and banner up with the theme "starka kvinnor" which basically means "Strong women", showing the exploits of women in the Swedish air force/army and promoting the idea that girls can also join the Swedish air force and become pilots and also the idea that this is normal. I don't think we are as "organised" about this here. If women end up getting discouraged or even edged out of the workplace because of smart comments then they're not going to show their true potential even if there are HR policies/laws that say otherwise.

ntlbell

radioactiveman wrote: »

Hi OP
good post, you don't have to be an extreme feminist to see that a lot of guys in Ireland have a stone age attitude to women. In my experience it is done more snidely through emails and things like that as well as just remarks (in the workplace), but it can be fairly cutting.

I worked for while in Sweden a few years ago and they seem to have a very different approach to promoting equality. E.g. I went to an aircraft museum, and they had a special film running and banner up with the theme "starka kvinnor" which basically means "Strong women", showing the exploits of women in the Swedish air force/army and promoting the idea that girls can also join the Swedish air force and become pilots and also the idea that this is normal. I don't think we are as "organised" about this here. If women end up getting discouraged or even edged out of the workplace because of smart comments then they're not going to show their true potential even if there are HR policies/laws that say otherwise.

sorry but do the same emails not get sent around by women regarding men

there is both men and women in this issue not just men

plenty of women have bad attitudes as wibbs mentioned the aul "aw bless sure he's only a man"

but when women send these emails around about men they're having the craic and if a man does it about a woman he's a sexist pig living in the dark ages?

right..

g'em

ntlbell wrote: »

but when women send these emails around about men they're having the craic and if a man does it about a woman he's a sexist pig living in the dark ages?

If it concerns you why not start a thread. This one is about jokes at women's expense.

ntlbell

g'em wrote: »

If it concerns you why not start a thread. This one is about jokes at women's expense.

it doesn't concern me at all, I was just trying to bring some equality to their post.

Wibbs

Stay on topic.

Stheno

Silverfish wrote: »

Well, I could write all day on this topic, but it appears I've lost my sense of humour along with you

An interesting thing happened in work the other day though.

Something important happened, and there was a few people up in arms.

Two of the lads were giving out YARDS in a meeting, ranting, raving, totally losing the head. That was grand. I got a bit riled up (sitting the other side of the camp, as it were) and in order to get my point across, raised my voice to shout over the ongoing yelling, in a 'WELL IF YOU JUST READ the list there it shows clearly yadda....'

The general consensus was the two lads are 'real go-getters, assertive, demanding, etc etc' where as I was asked if it was 'my time of the month'.

When I took issue with that, it was 'Ah have a ****ing sense of humour' *cue twenty lads laughing their heads off*


So what I learned was, if a man does something like that, he's looked up to. If a woman does something like that, she's a 'looper'.

Like I posted somewhere before:

When you're in the minority, but each one person from the majority decides to make one, or two 'throwaway' comments, they all add up.

e.g I work with 20 or so blokes. I'm the only female. For my first week, each of those guys made one 'throwaway' generic 'women! pfft' joke.

For them, it was one.
For me it was twenty. Times five.

Times 2 years.

So its just not funny any more.

I understand exactly how you feel, I'm in a team of 22 with two other women, and I've found the only comeback can often be an equally cutting response back, but to be honest, just can't be bothered. I work with one complete neanderthal tho who can occasionally come out with seriously inappropriate comments and he's skated pretty close to the wind in terms of being reported a couple of times.

I do have a mate who manages a team of 20 odd blokes, and one day they were bemoaning the lack of women on their team. She asked them why they thought this was the case, and when given their opinion that women wouldn't be able to cope in their job, replied "Lads, have you looked at the top of the departmental org chart recently?" Cue sheepish grins from said blokes when they realised what they'd said and to whom.

cbreeze wrote: »

The name for this behaviour is sexual harrassment. Is there a workplace policy on bullying etc? It is easy to put up with it - but in the end it wears you down. Get back at them by never losing the cool, but request clarification on any perceived put down. Those workmates sound like the kind of chumps who probably would not be able to visualise the insulting statement if a non-white non-Irish national was substituted every time women/'girls' were the target.

Tbh, I would have the opinion that in the case of a lot of blokes who behave like this, firstly they wouldn't see it as harassment/bullying, and secondly it would most likely have a seriously negative impact on the woman reporting them, she still has to work with them, or find alternative employment. It's one area of employment law that is a minefield in terms of resolving as often it has to be dealt with in situ and it can result in people walking on eggshells.

E.g. I had a male boss years ago, who sat a particular way in his cubicle, so that he could "check out the good looking girls who were on the way to the bathroom" in his computer monitor (I kid you not) and he happily informed his female staff of this (maybe we were exceptionally ugly and not work checking out ) Anyway this bloke was a complete out and out bully, and a sexist twat, myself and another woman reported to him, I ended up suffering from 15 minute bouts of vomiting every morning when I woke up for work and he was going to be there (if he was off, I didn't) ended up with severe stress that caused me to become physically ill, (requiring referral to a neurologist and two months of tests) and the other woman ended up ill also through stress.

He finally ended up ill himself and was out of work for long enough that the Department head at the time commented to the replacement manager how much better the quality of the work from his team was. So everything came out and was dealt with via the "anti-harrassment/bullying" policy.

It took SIX months, partly due to management inertia and fear of dealing with the situation. Even worse, it involved sitting down with the bully in unsupervised meetings and "discussing" how his behaviour affected his staff.

Finally he was removed from people management responsibilities, but we still had to work with him, and it remained very strained.

And yes, I could have reported him sooner, management could have dealt with things better, the meetings could have been supervised, but imo far too many people/managers/companies would rather not have to deal with this situation, the policies are there, but more so as lipservice than a reality.

Coincidentally I've come across three cases in my career of men using anti bullying policies also, and in each case they ended up departing the relevant companies on very bad terms.

JC 2K3

I never make comments about women and their hormones etc., and this might sound like an odd opinion, but I honestly don't believe that women go through any more hormonal related mood swings than guys, women's are just more cyclic and thus noticible. I mean, take Silverfish's first post for example, those guys shouting at each other in argument, nothing to do with testosterone? It's similar with the issue of depression and how many young guys are affected by that. The idea that guys are more rational or stable than women is a load of crap.

So I don't think that "wimmin" jokes are very funny. But I also recognise that there are a whole range of psychological and social problems affecting my own gender too, many of which are directly related to the issues women face. For this reason, I'm not too keen on the idea of feminism, because although I haven't done much reading on the subject, it seems a bit one sided to me. It seems pro-women rather than an attempt to understand both genders and why we view each other the way we do.

I'm not sure I put that very coherently, I've had trouble finding the words to try and express my sentiments, but I think you'll find that a lot of men feel the way I do, if even just subconsciously, and I think you see it on this board when male posters will interject in a topic and complain that guys face similar issues or w/e. I feel that if there were more feeling of unity amongst guys, more support for the issues we face, that as a whole, guys would be more inclined to empathise with women and you'd see a reduction in misogyny.

Stheno

JC 2K3 wrote: »

The idea that guys are more rational or stable than women is a load of crap.

Imo it is too.

I've had more than one/two/three occasions to ask a boss/colleague if a male colleague was ok, in all instances there were personal issues affecting that individual's work performance, and personally as a manager I've taken blokes aside and listened to their problems/seen them cry about how their personal lives are affecting all of their life if that makes sense.

Whilst I listened, and did my best to help, or went to lunch with a boss who wanted to talk about someone's difficulties, I've never put it down to hormones, either privately or by publicly ridiculing someone.

Everyone regardless of gender, has issues to deal with, be it the death of a beloved pet, a family bereavement, moving house, marital breakdown, a kid not doing well at school, depression, grief, whatever.

Some people are more private than others, and might confide in a manager as they have to, to facilitate leave, then struggle on through their work day as best they can.

I have never, ever, ever, in 12 years of working in male dominated environments, heard someone ask a bloke if he's hormones are in overdrive, but I've heard far cruder comments in relation to women.

So yes, it's a load of crap as you say that men are more stable than women, but it's also true, that the fact we menstruate gives men an easy excuse for what they percieve as "hormonal" behaviour on the part of women.

But I also recognise that there are a whole range of psychological and social problems affecting my own gender too, many of which are directly related to the issues women face.

Absolutely, the suicide rate amongst young males in Ireland is one extreme example I can think of, and it's something that deserves attention.

For this reason, I'm not too keen on the idea of feminism, because although I haven't done much reading on the subject, it seems a bit one sided to me. It seems pro-women rather than an attempt to understand both genders and why we view each other the way we do.

And here we will disagree, personally I think feminism is about affording equal rights and choices, not which gender is better than the other

b3t4

The moon effects everyone on this planet. It was Thaed who cottoned me onto that one. What with us lot being made up predominantly of fluid and all. Werewolf, anyone??

Men are definitely as moody as women but don't tell anyone that, it's a secret.

Ya see I don't get what men, who use these 'jokes', are trying to achieve other than trying to demean the person it's being said at. I mean what is there to achieve? It, seriously, doesn't make any sense to me.

Thankfully in my workplace I've never experienced such juvenile behaviour. In the beginning, I do generally have to force the point with some people (generally men) that I do know what I'm doing. Once I've gotten over the initial hurdle they know not to question me though.

If someone did behave in such a manner towards me I hope that the deathly silence and sheer look on my face would give them indication enough that they are anything but funny. That's the ideal reaction of course but I'm thankful to not have experienced such nonsense.

From the, apparently, hormonally psychotic and incapable,
A.

Black Swan

Does anyone like being placed into a category at the sacrifice of their individuality, be they female or male? Sweeping generalisations about gender, or physiology, or whatever do that, are unfair to the person, and make an unwitting fool out of the joker.

amacachi

Just to stick to the topic coz if I go slightly off-topic I'll end up going very off-topic. :P

I personally will joke about anything and everything. Including crude jokes about female body parts. And male body parts too! I do my best not to do it in front of people who'll be offended or made uncomfortable by it. That's just a little thing called decent manners.

The only time I'll make reference to a woman's hormonal stuff affecting her mood is if she's one of the quite sizable % of women (in my own experience) who use the 5-7 days a month they're on their period as an excuse or license to be complete arseholes and don't feel like they need to apologise.

To me it seems like it's women who feel inferior in themselves when it comes to certain jokes. If me and my mates are hanging out there'll be jokes about everything. No-one takes offence. Say something about a woman and she takes it personally. IMO because she thinks we're gettin onto her about being a woman, despite the fact we've slagged each other about being ugly, not being able to get it up, being infertile, having a small dick, being a dumbass, everything. Girls don't seem to notice when men make "sexist" or derogatory jokes about men, only about women and overreact.

Meh, I'm sure there'll be plenty of disagreement of my post. There are other things I'd like to reply to on this thread but like I said, I want to try to stay on topic. :P

amacachi

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Does anyone like being placed into a category at the sacrifice of their individuality, be they female or male? Sweeping generalisations about gender, or physiology, or whatever do that, are unfair to the person, and make an unwitting fool out of the joker.

Honestly I don't care what people make fun of me about, and believe me, there's plenty to choose from.

Crumble Froo

excellent thread.

a lot of good posts and points.

personally, for me, it would all depend on context. most of my mates are male, so every now and then, i do get a sexist type comment, which is meant entirely in a jokey context, and i know that it's just a joke, i'll usually laugh, tell them to get fucked, or attempt a come back. (usually easiest to laugh and tell them where to go...). it is just a laugh though, same way they take the piss out of me for being irish. in no way meant to be offensive, just a laugh. in all fairness, the poor bastards (particularly the one who'se most likely to make the joke) have been there as shoulders to cry on/vent at and chill out with on the occasion* where my hormones do go a little crazy and they'll never say a word about it then.

if i was to get it from someone at work though, it is just not acceptable and i'd have absolutely no problems in telling them that and making a genuine complaint if it was repeated.


*possibly 4 times a year, a combination of sickness, tiredness and that time of the month, do send me a little cuckoo.

WindSock

As for being in the workplace, I also work with 20+ men, I never have had the oppertunity of any of them saying that I am hormonal, I have been working here for almost a year and I have never had the fact that I am a woman come into anything. My job is not really an important decision making kind, unless I have to order more stationary so I rarely have the need to get angry at my peers. I think I am lucky that I am not in the eye of the storm sometimes, but at the same time I know anything that would be said would be done so in jest. I am not part of the camaradarie that goes on, perhaps because they are afraid to offend me? Sometimes I wish the lads would try and take the piss and accept me to be a person who is like 'one of them' that they don't have to tiptoe around the elephant in the room. So you see, it's a double edged sword.

jellie

In my experience the hormonal "joke" is only ever used by immature men who either dont really know what theyre talking about or realise theyve lost the argument and its a last ditch effort to save themselves. Ive only ever heard it used against a woman in a joking friendly situation where everyone was joking & we knew it was a joke. Ive probably heard it used against more men than females to be honest "oh haha it must be his time of the month".

i wouldnt particularly mind it between friends because i know its purely a joke, but if anyone attempted to use it against me in work i wouldnt be happy especially because I work on a team where Im the only female, and Im fairly sure a couple of the men look down on me already because im a woman.

i do get extremely p*ssed off on occassion in work (due to people being idiots) & itll be obvious but theres always a valid reason for it. To be honest im very tempermental in general in work but i dont let it show unless someone has pushed me over the edge, & its nothing whatsoever to do with my hormones, usually in a stressful situations like a day to a deadline. Admittedly i do go crazy at certain times of the month, if you looked at me the wrong way id probably cry, but at this stage ive recognised when this is coming & have enough sense to leave the room if i think im gonna go mental about something. I probably act more normal at my hormonal times.

Dragan

I always find it very interesting when topics like this come up. I seem to be the only person on boards who works in a female dominated environment.

Before i get too far into things i will just say that as far as I am concerned...EVERYTHING is funny and fair game. Different people have different rules and until you have a good idea what someones line is you leave things be but the basic truth for me is that everything is funny because a smile is always better than a tear.

Anyways...

Silverfish wrote: »

When you're in the minority, but each one person from the majority decides to make one, or two 'throwaway' comments, they all add up.

I would agree with this, to a large degree. I work in a heavily female dominated environment. I am the only guy on my team, in my Dept I am one of very few males. I am leaving at the end of the this week and if i went into some of the **** that "women" have been saying to me in work recently I'm sure it would raise a few eyebrows. That said, i am taking it as all being jokes, as opposed to implying anything specific about my gender.

Now then, i have no doubt people will be happy to dismiss everything I say because i am a bloke, but **** em.

I will allow someone the line that this type of joke is not funny ONLY if they can say, under whatever oath they feel is most important, that they never make similar jokes about anybody else, for any reason.

As you can see, if you think about it, I would say 100% of people can't do that. Sometimes things just set us off, sometimes we ourselve speak without thinking about the impact on the people who will hear the words.

g'em wrote: »

But my opinion has changed rather radically since then, and I've realised that feminism is less about setting underwear on fire and more about recognising what I, as a woman, am entitled to given that I can do many (most?) things equally as good if not better than any given man and the kind of treatment that I deserve as another human being.

With regard to Feminism....i think the above is a sure sign of an advancement of your train of thought about Feminism g'em! That said, i still see the above as almost being the problem with Feminism...in my opinion. You are not entitled to ANYTHING because you are a woman my dear, you are entitled to EVERYTHING because you are a PERSON.

It does matter what you can do better or worse than any bloke....it only matters that you do these things becuase you want to and are entitled to do so for the same reason.

I think the last part "as another human being" is the part the should be hinged on.

The interesting thing is, your anger only got up because it was a MALE Mod who said this to you, is there anychance that this male Mod wasn't talking to a woman, but rather to a person?

So, to sum up. Yes, things are just funny and often times the upset person may be interpreting something that simply is not there.

Any time in the past we would have given each other **** about the "failings" of our genders we were doing it as people i think, not as a man and a woman silently at battle.

Silverfish

I can guarantee you Dragan, I have never once made any inappropriate or even personal comment to any of the people I work with.
Unfortunately to be viewed as a professional, I have to act like one.

Dragan

Silverfish wrote: »

I can guarantee you Dragan, I have never once made any inappropriate or even personal comment to any of the people I work with.
Unfortunately to be viewed as a professional, I have to act like one.

I wasn't talking about work, i was talking about the general "jokes" than can occur anywhere.

As in, some gentle joke to boyfriend/partner about "men"? Brother? Father? Friend? etc

Silverfish

Dragan wrote: »

I wasn't talking about work, i was talking about the general "jokes" than can occur anywhere.

As in, some gentle joke to boyfriend/partner about "men"? Brother? Father? Friend? etc

Well, you quoted me when I was talking about work, so I assumed thats the point you were making.

I'm not quite with you, because I may have gone 'Men! :rolleyes:' at someone for making a comment or doing something, that means I deserve what I get in work?

I never take something which causes them pain, hurt and illness and make a mockery of them for it, no.

Dragan

Silverfish wrote: »

Well, you quoted me when I was talking about work, so I assumed thats the point you were making.

I'm not quite with you, because I may have gone 'Men! :rolleyes:' at someone for making a comment or doing something, that means I deserve what I get in work?

I never take something which causes them pain, hurt and illness and make a mockery of them for it, no.

No, what i am saying is

1) the person who makes the comment may not MEAN to cause offence
2) the person who hears the comment may actually just be in **** form at the time and read too much into it.
3) If you are the type of person who also makes similar comments then you REALLY need to refer to points 1 and 2.

Thats about it.

Pyr0

g'em wrote: »

If it concerns you why not start a thread. This one is about jokes at women's expense.

Doesn't stop the poster from raising perfectly valid points which I believe are in line with the thread, this is a discussion after all. If we were to create a thread for every opposite side of the story the number of threads in TLL would double.

shellyboo

amacachi wrote: »

The only time I'll make reference to a woman's hormonal stuff affecting her mood is if she's one of the quite sizable % of women (in my own experience) who use the 5-7 days a month they're on their period as an excuse or license to be complete arseholes and don't feel like they need to apologise.

But those women are just idiots, no? Anyone who uses pain or hormones to excuse bad behaviour is an idiot - yes, it may explain a bad mood, but it certainly doesn't excuse it. If you treat someone badly, you apologise, no matter WHY you did it.

Re the original topic...
A gentle ribbing in good humour, i can take - my housemate came in last night, spied my hot water bottle, and out came a barrage of painter/decorator/aunt flo jokes until I threw the hot water bottle at his head. I laughed along with him. That I can handle.

But as a putdown, a legitimate argument, or at work? Unacceptable. It's a cheap and easy shot and shows more about the person's lack of intellect than anything else.

Basically, if someone thinks I'm being stupid or an assshole, I'd rather they just said I was being stupid or an assshole. Call me on it. Don't make allowances for me because I have a womb, or ask me if it's my time of the month. A period is not a get-out clause.

ntlbell

shellyboo wrote: »

B
A period is not a get-out clause.

It would be nice if more women stopped using it as one.

WindSock

ntlbell wrote: »

It would be nice if more women stopped using it as one.

Some women do suffer from terrible cramps and I fully support that they may have reduced mobility for a couple of days. It is more difficult to guage PMS and decipher if it is normal stress or hormone related or both. That's why writing it off as just 'hormones' and nothing else is a bit invalidating and insulting.