WTF - John Carthy tribunal cost over €20m

DonJose

Ok you fire 30 rounds at the police in the US and they blow you away, case closed and end of story. Over in Ireland you do the same and theres a fukking tribunal that cost over €20m :eek: Then another payout of €100k to his family :eek: Fukk life insurance, I'm buying a shotgun.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0313/abbeylara.html

arybvtcw0eolkf

I just caught it on the news, sickening.

Terry

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'

twinytwo

comes down to the fact that most people in this country are too politicaly correct... like i mean if a guard hits someone a slap then 99% of the time they prob deserved it right?? A guy is out at a protest starts a riot/ruckas or what have you so get bashed by police as you do and somehow he can sure for assault .. this country is tied up in red tape and legal BS.

pcworldsucks

The bastard cost us ,the taxpayers, €20 milion! I hope they shot him in the bollix first, its the least he deserved for blowing 20 million of our money.

Pyr0

The sickening thing is, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it now. It's typical of people in this country to try and grab at anything they can. "He shouldn't have died" Yeah f*cking right, if you fire 30 shots at the police what do you think will happen ? Oh right silly me, your family will get a nice little payout in the end.

They should have shot him when he raised the gun the first time.

Zadkiel

pcworldsucks wrote: »

The bastard cost us ,the taxpayers, €20 milion! I hope they shot him in the bollix first, its the least he deserved for blowing 20 million of our money.

He's dead though and wasn't aparty to this particular farce and didnt cost us a penny. Its the way the countries run thats at fault.

hunter164

All the way to Longford, all the way to Longford, to shoot a lunatic.

Ironbars

Firstly, he never actually fired at the Garda....... before you crazy people run away with yourselves it wasnt like de niro in Heat.He was inside the house firing at the ceiling/wall and when he was outside the house and within clear range of more than one sniper, they should and could have taken the shotgun arm instead of a head shot .


Grow up and learn to read between the lines..........

ejmaztec

If we complain enough, they'll have another tribunal to investigate why the first one cost so much.

It wasn't me!

Ironbars wrote: »

Firstly, he never actually fired at the Garda....... before you crazy people run away with yourselves it wasnt like de niro in Heat.He was inside the house firing at the ceiling/wall and when he was outside the house and within clear range of more than one sniper, they should and could have taken the shotgun arm instead of a head shot .


Grow up and learn to read between the lines..........

I may be mistaken, but I was of the impression that he fired several rounds at the Gardai over the wall.

Second, I don't recall ever reading that there were snipers there. I don't even know whether the Gardai/ERU employ any or have the tools for them.

Third, that's never, ever the procedure, for excellent historical reasons.

Abbeylara was a stupid tragedy and happened through a failure to enforce the firearms act. As I recall, the investigating officers from other countries found that the main fault of the Gardai at the scene was that procedure wasn't followed and Carthy should have been shot far earlier.

Cathmandooo

Ironbars wrote: »

Firstly, he never actually fired at the Garda.......

Yes he did there were bullet holes in the pillars at the gate where gardai were hiding behind.

Daroxtar

Ironbars wrote: »

Firstly, he never actually fired at the Garda....... before you crazy people run away with yourselves it wasnt like de niro in Heat.He was inside the house firing at the ceiling/wall and when he was outside the house and within clear range of more than one sniper, they should and could have taken the shotgun arm instead of a head shot .


Grow up and learn to read between the lines..........

As far as i remember it -He shot the megaphone the cops were using off the bonnet of the cop car right beside a cop. He also shot the gateposts the gards were crouched behind.Thats too close for comfort with a 12 guage shotgun from 20 yards. The snipers themselves wouldn't try that.

He was shot in the leg first in an attempt to knock him but that failed then as he turned and raised the gun again a second shot was fired which went into his lower back which ricocheted in his abdomen and exited through his groin. I'm pretty sure that was the fatal shot. I do not remember hearing about a deliberate heart/head shot and i took a good bit of interest in the case as I worked with him on the building of a shopping centre in galway about 18 months before this happened and no offence to the poor lad but he was not quite all there. The majority of the shots he fired were fired randomly, but thats just the point.. when faced with a distressed psychiatric patient carrying a loaded shotgun who knows where the next one was going?

Its a tragedy but the cops had very little options left and i doubt anyone wanted to kill him.

twinytwo

Ironbars wrote: »

Firstly, he never actually fired at the Garda....... before you crazy people run away with yourselves it wasnt like de niro in Heat.He was inside the house firing at the ceiling/wall and when he was outside the house and within clear range of more than one sniper, they should and could have taken the shotgun arm instead of a head shot .


Grow up and learn to read between the lines..........

I see your one of those?... if it gets to the point when snipers have to be used , (they are used as a last resort) it is always shoot to kill. Think of the abuse they would get if a sniper shot a suspect in the arm and he still managed to get shot off and killed someone?.... also a suspect dosent have to fire his/her weapon all he/she has to is point it at a guard/person and bye bye

Lizzykins

Well the guards are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If the guy had killed 5 unarmed guards there would have been ANOTHER €20 million tribunal. As someone else said if you were in the states and you piced up a gun what would you expect. And as for the family getting money-crazy.

galwayrush

We are excellent at wasting money in Ireland.:mad: To the powers that be......" sure it's only small money"

Fulton Crown

DonJose wrote: »

Ok you fire 30 rounds at the police in the US and they blow you away, case closed and end of story. Over in Ireland you do the same and theres a fukking tribunal that cost over €20m :eek: Then another payout of €100k to his family :eek: Fukk life insurance, I'm buying a shotgun.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0313/abbeylara.html

Whats the surprise...??

Guards fcuk up in Donegal - Tribunal = Mega bucks.:eek:

Politicians on the take..everywhere....Tribunal mega bucks :eek:

Some crustys trying to save the Redwinged Moorhen in meath ..you've guessed it !

(Them Eco warriors were absolutely right about the Glen o the Downs - that nice new road thats such a boon to commuters has ruined it....well...hasen't it. ??

Oh ! an that crowd of nutters down in Mayo...holding up an gas pipeline and costing the tax payer "millins".

This is Ireland mate - different rules....:eek:

Donny5

Unfortunately.

Terry

Cathooo wrote: »

Yes he did there were bullet holes in the pillars at the gate where gardai were hiding behind.

Those bullet holes were from 1916.

Robbo

I think the moral of the story is that when a local whackjob has a shotgun and asks you for cigarettes, you should probably give him some. That'll be €20 million please.

irish_bob

the guy wasnt the full shilling and had a death wish , it was baschically suicide by cop

as someone said , he would have been blasted away after five mins had it happend in america and been a one day story in the newspapers



THIS COUNTRY

mikemac

Ironbars wrote: »

outside the house and within clear range of more than one sniper, they should and could have taken the shotgun arm instead of a head shot .

First he wasn't shot in the head nor was a head shot attempted
Secondly, training is to shot the mass of the body (chest). I'm always seeing this about hitting people in the arm, but why oh why didn't they disable him....

If an ERU officer shot him the arm and he got another shot and killed someone, we'd have two 20 million tribunals not one

30 shots, that's what they call in America death by cop.
In the US, he'd be killed in minutes and ne'er a word said.

Robbo

mikemac wrote: »

30 shots, that's what they call in America death by cop

Same can be said for holding a wallet. 41 times.

MagicMarker

Who's John Carthy?

johnnyskeleton

Terry wrote: »

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'

And then the builders.

irish_bob

mikemac wrote: »

Ah, you're referring to [URL="xhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo"]Amadou Diallo.[/URL]

You can't compare that to a negotiation that happened for hours and not one, not two but thirty shots.

Should the ERU have waited for forty, fifty shots? A comrade shot?

Only mistakes they made was allowing him to have a firearm and then not taking decisive action sooner.

its difficult for gardai to take pre emptive action against mentally unwell people , take firearems ofd them , have them admitted to hospitals etc , any issue to do with mental health , the liberals own it

mikemac

I fully agree the gardai have a difficult job and I certainly don't want to second guess their decisions. They are the trained experts in this state and I trust them fully to take the correct decision.

blackbox

mikemac wrote: »

Ah, you're referring to [URL="xhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo"]Amadou Diallo.[/URL]

You can't compare that to a negotiation that happened for hours and not one, not two but thirty shots.

Should the ERU have waited for forty, fifty shots? A comrade shot?

Only mistakes they made was allowing him to have a firearm and then not taking decisive action sooner.

+1

If anything the guards were negligent by not shooting him sooner considering the threat he posed.

Why on earth did it need such an expensive enquiry to find out what happened? There was video evidence and a modest number of witnesses.

Dyr

It cost us 20 million in a tribunal because the gardai made a balls of everything up to the point when carthy came out shooting including precipitating the whole tragedy by beating him up while in custody.

Manic Moran

My concern with 'shoot to wound' as a policy is that there is some misconception that you are not using lethal force. A rifle round, even if aimed at a hand or whatever, is lethal force. What would be the outcry if someone tried to use a rifle at non-lethal force criteria by shooting a weapon out of the guy's hand, and the ricochet from the gun goes right through the targets head, killing him? Or if there were no gun at all, say the chap on the other end had a knife and the sniper just plain misses and kills him? If a trigger is being pulled on a rifle, the default position must be that the target poses a threat to life. And if he poses a threat to life, you'd be as best off making sure he is incapacitated quickly.

The highly publicised instance of the sniper shooting the gun out of the hand of a gunman in a wheelchair was subject to a variety of unique criteria and should not be taken as an example of standard procedure.

NTM

K-9

The problem was, they knew he was a "nut case" and had history.

Local Guards would know that type of thing.

They never involved his psychiatrist, even though they knew he had problems.

The tribunals were set up to see if the Guards could learn from this.

Tribunals have shown up Garda problems over the years.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Ironbars wrote: »

Firstly, he never actually fired at the Garda....... before you crazy people run away with yourselves it wasnt like de niro in Heat.He was inside the house firing at the ceiling/wall and when he was outside the house and within clear range of more than one sniper, they should and could have taken the shotgun arm instead of a head shot .


Grow up and learn to read between the lines..........

1. He shot at the police, a garda car was hit and a guard's head was protected when pellets hit the police mega-phone.

2. People are not trained to shot guns out of other people's hands like you see in Hollywood - containing rounds first (shots fired near the armed person to contain them in a certain area) then its either a head shot or a shot at the center of the central mass ie the chest.

3. Its folly, and down right dangerous to think that its an option to shot weapons from someone's grasp, or even a shot to the extremities.

Put in the same situ I'd have absolutely no problem shooting him dead.

bunny shooter

He walked out of the house with the shotgun and refused to put it down............only one outcome............and it happened..........tradegy that it happened for his family...............but the Garda that shot him has to live with that for the rest of his life too

bunny shooter

Cathooo wrote: »

Yes he did there were bullet holes in the pillars at the gate where gardai were hiding behind.

Just to explain how technically wrong your statement is .............. he had a shotgun, the projectile from them are called pellets, bullets are fired from rifles.

Chances are the pellets if fired at a wall won't leave much of a hole even at close range.

pcworldsucks

Can someone tell me tho how it cost 20 FOOKING MILLION? How the hell could it come to that much?

mikemac

Barristers cost over 1k a day, possibly more.

And it's likely several were involved here

Aidric

The real tragedy here is the Irish taxpayer who has to foot the abnormal legal fees for an unwarranted tribunal of enquiry. The case was a simple black and white one, a mentally unstable guy firing rounds at gardai, gardai return fire to eliminate threat, case closed..or so it should have been.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Aidric wrote: »

The real tragedy here is the Irish taxpayer who has to foot the abnormal legal fees for an unwarranted tribunal of enquiry. The case was a simple black and white one, a mentally unstable guy firing rounds at gardai, gardai return fire to eliminate threat, case closed..or so it should have been.

Mmmm, if only it was THAT simple, but this was obviously a hard nut to crack!...


:P

PatrickJr

Same old story.

Little irish man wants justice.

The big boys say "we'll give you justice little guy"

And then hand over hundreds of millions of euros to their lawyer mates, laughing all the way at the little man as he picks up the bill.

And justice, I am yet to see a srious veridt from one of the tribunals.

PCros

Its a joke that it cost 20 million, and that fat judge on TV defending him...yeah more like defending all the lawyers who made thousands out of it.

Also the FBI were brought in to investigate the whole thing back when it happened, as guess what......they stated that John Carthy should of been shot quicker!

arybvtcw0eolkf

PCros wrote: »

Also the FBI were brought in to investigate the whole thing back when it happened, as guess what......they stated that John Carthy should of been shot quicker!

With faster bullets?.

Dyr

Aidric wrote: »

The real tragedy here is the Irish taxpayer who has to foot the abnormal legal fees for an unwarranted tribunal of enquiry. The case was a simple black and white one, a mentally unstable guy firing rounds at gardai, gardai return fire to eliminate threat, case closed..or so it should have been.

Black and white? The judge found plenty of serious flaws in how the gardai handled the situation, including that they didnt tell him the truth on certain issues. Maybe if we had a more accountable police force we wouldnt be shelling out for tribunals to look into their shennanigans and more importantly, this guy might still be alive.

black and white me arse.

Bambi

Bambi wrote: »

and more importantly, this guy might still be alive.

who cares if he's dead? i'm happier he's gone from society.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

more importantly, this guy might still be alive.

.

And wtf sould he still be alive?.

God forbid I'm ever attacked whilst on duty, but if I do I hope one (or all) of my comrades will blown the fvcker all the way back to hell without giving a second thought to 'wooo, what if I'm hit with a tribunal'.

PCros

Mairt wrote: »

With faster bullets?.

Em no. Faster trigger fingers!

Pyr0

Mairt wrote: »

Mmmm, if only it was THAT simple, but this was obviously a hard nut to crack!...


:P

We can call it the "Mairt Tribunal". We could probably get a few boardsies in on it too :pac:

K-9

I don't think the problem was the shooting, it was how the Guards handled the siege. €20 million and tribunals are an expensive way of finding out though.

Firetrap

Feckin' hell. That €20m would have been far better being spent on hospital beds or special needs kids. Not because some nutter was firing shots at the guards all day and refused to drop his weapon. What did he expect? Tea and cakes at the cop shop?

podge3

Bambi wrote: »

It cost us 20 million in a tribunal because the gardai made a balls of everything up to the point when carthy came out shooting including precipitating the whole tragedy by beating him up while in custody.

You must have watched Rambo 1 recently :rolleyes:

Anto McC

hunter164 wrote: »

All the way to Longford, all the way to Longford, to shoot a lunatic.

"On a Longford morning when a new born sun was dawning,
Poor auld Johnny Carthy he was having a one man party,
He's just a little mental (da do do do do),Easily led (da do do do do)
It wasn't accidental when they shot him in the head.

is this the way to Abbeylara,
He only wanted 20 Malboro
and to see his sister, Tara
but they shot him anyway

Sha la la la la la la la Bang bang
Sha la la la la la la la Bang bang
Sha la la la la la la la Bang bang
but they shot him anyway.

danh789

Thank God Jack Bauer isnt Irish or the country would be totally fu!ked paying compensation and tribunals!!!