Deadlift: Trap Bar vs Standard Bar

Killme00

Can anyone tell me the difference between a trap bar DL and a standard DL?

Comparing the two on seperate sessions in the last week, i have found that i was far more wrecked after 150 * 6 (standard) versus 180 * 6 (trap bar). I also find the trap bar DL easier to do in terms of technique and this really helps when fatique sets in.

I am just looking for views on the difference between the two and which would be best in terms of building power.

Roper

Lots of stuff.

grip, hands by your side grip for the trap bar enables you to get your shoulders back earlier and without conscious effort. A trap bar is just get in, stand up. Very little coaching required, very safe, and allows for a greater load to be exerted earlier in the training age.

Quick example, tonight I had a girl doing 5x5 with 60kgs and that was her first time deadlifting. If I was using a straight bar, that would have taken a month, maybe two to get to that level of loading.

Basically, more weight=better training effect.

PeakOutput

Roper wrote: »

Quick example, tonight I had a girl doing 5x5 with 60kgs and that was her first time deadlifting.

way to make me feel bad lol i hope when you say girl you mean someone over the age of 18 or im going to feel even worse

Colm_OReilly

A trap bar deadlift is more akin to a squat than a deadlift. As it uses more muscles in a more mechanically efficient manner than a regular deadlift you can lift more.

And more weight = better training effect. Case in point. A leg press uses more weight but it does not deliver a greater training effect.

The Guvnor

I've never used a trap bar but as the lads have said regular deadlifts are technical and let's face it dangerous if done incorrectly.

This thread has reminded me to ask the gym to buy a trap bar! Probably will never happen but worth asking!

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

A trap bar deadlift is more akin to a squat than a deadlift. As it uses more muscles in a more mechanically efficient manner than a regular deadlift you can lift more.

And more weight = better training effect. Case in point. A leg press uses more weight but it does not deliver a greater training effect.

I don't agree... obviously. For a start the leg press isn't as complex a movement as a squat. So comparing leg press and squat isn't the same as comparing trap bar versus straight bar.

The deadlift is great, but there's a lot of things to consider technically, which means that a lot of the time, you can't perform it anywhere near the individuals max strength limits. The trap bar allows you to go heavier, sooner (insert CNS stuff here). There are some differences wrt to the mechanics whch make it more squat like, but it's still a deadlift. We'll disagree on this, but my job is to get the training effect asap. Guys have, if you're lucky, 6 sessions a week to give. 4, possibly 5 of those are going to be skill or sparring, which leaves you with 1 or 2 sessions to do strength training. Teaching the deadlift is a luxury I can't afford.

wasabi

OK, trap bar deadlifts are a bit easier technique wise than standard deadlifts because you don't have the bar in front of you and it's not pulling your centre of gravity forward so much and therefore less likely to make you round your back.

However, the load is still very much through your spine and if you're not aware of your back position and controlling your lower back arch throughout the lift you could definitely hurt yourself. It would not be a good thing for people to read this thread and presume they can just lob hundreds of kilos on a trap bar and yank it off the floor any which way without risking injury

Roper

wasabi wrote: »

However, the load is still very much through your spine and if you're not aware of your back position and controlling your lower back arch throughout the lift you could definitely hurt yourself. It would not be a good thing for people to read this thread and presume they can just lob hundreds of kilos on a trap bar and yank it off the floor any which way without risking injury

I understand all of that and I agree. I just don't worry about people I'm not coaching. If you're dumb enough to try to lift anything really heavy without proper coaching just because you read it on the internet, then you're just dumb and no disclaimer I put on here is going to increase your IQ.

fatmammycat

I find with a trap bar my legs are doing the bulk of the work, but with a straight bar Dl I'm using abs, arms, stabilisers AND legs, so personally I prefer to go lighter and perfect the straight bar technique. Each to their own though, today is DL day for me so I'm giddily waiting to hit the gym. May the power of the calloused hands be with me.

Colm_OReilly

Teaching the deadlift is a luxury I can't afford.

I'm curious now as to how long it takes to teach a deadlift? We can have girls deadlifting within 10-15 minutes, and it's our observation that owing to their hamstring flexibility, they display superior form earlier in the dead.

There are some differences wrt to the mechanics whch make it more squat like, but it's still a deadlift.

What's a hack squat then? Could I call this a behind the back deadlift?

the lads have said regular deadlifts are technical and let's face it dangerous if done incorrectly

Driving is dangerous if done incorrectly, as is eating, drinking, any physical activity really. The notion that something is dangerous if done wrong and therefore should be avoided entirely is ridiculous. Also, there are far more technical movements than the deadlift.

rubadub

I am surprised they are not more popular. Most can deadlift more than they can squat. So if you can trapbar deadlift more than a regular deadlift, and if it is sort of a squat/deadlift hybrid then it is like some superweight squat. I imagine you can move your arms forward or back to make it more like one or the other, hitting the leg muscles differently.

And since it is sort of a cross between the 2 and you can use so much weight then perhaps if you were only allowed 1 exercise, squat, deadlift, or trap deadlift, then the trapbar might be the best option.

I would prefer to have a trap bar over squat stands, I would feel safer doing trap deadlifts than squats or deadlifts. I am only starting doing hip belt squats which I now find great, I am very comfortable doing them esp. as form is not so big an issue with no spinal loading, and if I go to failure there is really no danger.

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I'm curious now as to how long it takes to teach a deadlift? We can have girls deadlifting within 10-15 minutes, and it's our observation that owing to their hamstring flexibility, they display superior form earlier in the dead.

That's as maybe, but I'm looking for simplicity and IMO, the trap bar offers all the benefits I need from conventional deadlifting in a faster, better, safer way. I can have a girl deadlifting in 10-15 minutes but they won't be doing bodyweight in that time. Again I refer you to my practical demonstration of this effect from last night.

What's a hack squat then? Could I call this a behind the back deadlift?

Now we're just debating semantics. If you want I could just call it the trap bar squat. Won't change anything. We're both aware of the mechanics of the exercise and we know what it works and how it does it.

Driving is dangerous if done incorrectly, as is eating, drinking, any physical activity really. The notion that something is dangerous if done wrong and therefore should be avoided entirely is ridiculous. Also, there are far more technical movements than the deadlift.

Agreed. But again I'm into time versus benefit. I think the trap bar offers a greter time/benefit ratio for non-powerlifters.

spiral

Wasabi makes good points , it is easier to use a trapbar mainly due to your grip not being challenged as much and it using a lot more quad strength than a regular deadlift.
There is a lot less spinal loading IMO although again as Wasabi said you need to be mindful of your lower back doing any pulling exercise.
I managed to pull 200kg fairly easily on a trapbar , while 180kg on a regular bar is very very tough for me mainly due to me using a hook grip I think. Over under grip absolutely kills my elbows.

If you stand on a slightly elevated platform 3-4 inches the lift becomes much more like a squat

Killme00

rubadub wrote: »

I would prefer to have a trap bar over squat stands, I would feel safer doing trap deadlifts than squats or deadlifts. I am only starting doing hip belt squats which I now find great, I am very comfortable doing them esp. as form is not so big an issue with no spinal loading, and if I go to failure there is really no danger.

Its nowhere near a full squat though even when you flip the bar over a use the lower handles.

Roper

spiral wrote: »

Wasabi makes good points , it is easier to use a trapbar mainly due to your grip not being challenged as much and it using a lot more quad strength than a regular deadlift.
There is a lot less spinal loading IMO although again as Wasabi said you need to be mindful of your lower back doing any pulling exercise.
I managed to pull 200kg fairly easily on a trapbar , while 180kg on a regular bar is very very tough for me mainly due to me using a hook grip I think. Over under grip absolutely kills my elbows.

If you stand on a slightly elevated platform 3-4 inches the lift becomes much more like a squat

It is a good point, I wasn't disputing that. But my point was that if you're not bieng safe and getting good coaching then you only have yourself to blame. I've had this discussion before and I sound like a príck when I say it but I really don't care about other people's form or the idiotic things they get up to in the gym. I mean, even if we put stuff on the top of this topic saying "seek proper coaching and do not attempt this at home or you could paralyse yourself" the same people would still attempt the same things.

Personally I think the swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional.

spiral

My point was that it was a good point and worth bearing in mind thats all.
Lots of people think theyre being safe and getting good coaching when the reality couldnt be further from the truth. Im not that pushed either what they get up to , but I suppose if they were wondering then its there whether they heed it or not.
I always thought you had a bit more compassion Barry

Killme00

Roper wrote: »

Personally I think the swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional.

Whats this? It sounds like an overcomplication.

Roper

It's not that it's over complicated, or even under-complicated, it's just that if you can't do one you've no business being an athlete.

Killme00

Roper wrote: »

It's not that it's over complicated, or even under-complicated, it's just that if you can't do one you've no business being an athlete.

LOL now i really want to know what it is

Roper

Killme00 wrote: »

LOL now i really want to know what it is

It amazes me when people don't even know some of the most basic exercises in the athletic spectrum. The swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional exercise I've ever used. It gives you strength endurance, max strength, power, stability and functional strength (much, much different to max strength) in one exercise. You hit fast (dark) and slow (white) twitch muscle fibres as well as the often neglected grey fibres in between. If you perform it as part of a HIIT session, you can get cardio benefits too while still hitting all of the above factors.

YES there is a danger of paralysis, and some have been known to develop Gilmore Groin when performing repeated efforts at 80-110% of their max. But what doesn't have dangers that's effective?

BossArky

Roper wrote: »

It amazes me when people don't even know some of the most basic exercises in the athletic spectrum. The swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional exercise I've ever used. It gives you strength endurance, max strength, power, stability and functional strength (much, much different to max strength) in one exercise. You hit fast (dark) and slow (white) twitch muscle fibres as well as the often neglected grey fibres in between. If you perform it as part of a HIIT session, you can get cardio benefits too while still hitting all of the above factors.

YES there is a danger of paralysis, and some have been known to develop Gilmore Groin when performing repeated efforts at 80-110% of their max. But what doesn't have dangers that's effective?

What a 5000th post. Bravo man! :pac:

Killme00

Roper wrote: »

It amazes me when people don't even know some of the most basic exercises in the athletic spectrum. The swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional exercise I've ever used. It gives you strength endurance, max strength, power, stability and functional strength (much, much different to max strength) in one exercise. You hit fast (dark) and slow (white) twitch muscle fibres as well as the often neglected grey fibres in between. If you perform it as part of a HIIT session, you can get cardio benefits too while still hitting all of the above factors.

YES there is a danger of paralysis, and some have been known to develop Gilmore Groin when performing repeated efforts at 80-110% of their max. But what doesn't have dangers that's effective?

That was you 5000th post :pac::pac:

I really cant tell if you are being sarcastic

rubadub

Killme00 wrote: »

Its nowhere near a full squat though even when you flip the bar over a use the lower handles.

Ah yes, never thought of that. Why is it people make such a big deal about going below parallel in the squat if it is ok not to on a normal or trap bar deadlift?

Roper wrote: »

Personally I think the swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional

Must be in a fighting mood

Roper

5,000th post eh? It seems like only yesterday I had a life.

To oversimplify, pushing and pulling are two different things. You're not below parrallel on a conventional deadlift either.

g'em

Killme00 wrote: »

I really cant tell if you are being sarcastic

It's generally easier to work on the principle of trying to figure out when Roper isn't being sarcastic tbh.

Oh and Swiss balls are so 2004. Wobble boards for teh functional win.

rubadub

Roper wrote: »

To oversimplify, pushing and pulling are two different things. You're not below parrallel on a conventional deadlift either.

I still don't get it though. You are pulling with your hands fair enough, but then you have the same force transfered down your spine and to your legs. The weight/force acting on the legs should be the same, albeit at maybe different angles, but if the trap bar is held back the force could be equivalent to a backsquat.

The trapbar deadlift is very similar to a dumbbell squat.

If you were standing on a platform your trap bar handles could be at feet level.

Killme00

g'em wrote: »

It's generally easier to work on the principle of trying to figure out when Roper isn't being sarcastic tbh.

Oh and Swiss balls are so 2004. Wobble boards for teh functional win.

ME Trap Bar DL on a wobble on a power plate, i can only dream of the day that i am that functional :pac:

Roper

The best thing to do is go and do some dumbell squats, some conventional squats and some trap bar deadlifts. I could go into some detailed analysis of what is what and where but without you having done them, there's no point as we'd have no common frame of reference. It also takes up time I could be using to be sarcastic with.

As for knowing when I'm being sarcastic, I thought the 110% of your max thing was a giveaway. I do have a point with my above sarcasm you know, I'm like Brasseye.

kevpants

Roper wrote: »

Personally I think the swiss ball trap bar deadlift is the most functional.

I'll never forget the day I came across a family of puppies trapped underneath a trap bar and a swiss ball on my way to work. I was glad of the functionality then!

Trap bar swiss ball deadlifting is like Scientology. If you drive past an accident you HAVE to stop, because you know you're the only one functional enough to help.

rubadub

Read this on a site just yesterday.

Just spent the weekend on a course that included a couple of crossfit guys, there philosophy towards kipping, at least the way I understood it, was to get the chin above the bar by the most efficient way possible, creating momentum is the easiest way to achieve this, fair enough, will I incorporate this into my training, no. The example he used was, if you are hanging off the edge of a building are you going to concern yourself with form, unfortunately you are hanging off the edge of a building, you can't kip cause there's a building in your way.

wasabi

rubadub wrote: »

And since it is sort of a cross between the 2 and you can use so much weight then perhaps if you were only allowed 1 exercise, squat, deadlift, or trap deadlift, then the trapbar might be the best option.

I'd go for squats personally. They involve more of your musculature supporting the weight, and because of the spinal loading involved in squatting it's supposed to elicit more of a hormonal response than any other exercise.

Trap bar deads are very very good though. I like doing them but I'm only really allowed deadlift once a year at Christmas :pac:

wasabi

Roper wrote: »

It's not that it's over complicated, or even under-complicated, it's just that if you can't do one you've no business being an athlete.

Ha, try the power-plate wobble board trap bar snatch (requires 520 degrees of shoulder rotation and the ability to move your knee joints through time) and then come back and tell me who's an athlete

g'em

wasabi wrote: »

I like doing them but I'm only really allowed deadlift once a year at Christmas :pac:

Club Championships ftw!!! For the people crazy enough to go for 1RMs in the snatch/ clean&jerk/ deadlift/ bench/ squat all in one day!!!

Frickin loonies

BAck OT-ish, personally I've never liked trap bar deadlifts and have never been able to find my groove with them - regular DLs always felt more natural to me. No idea why.

wasabi

Maybe you're less quad dominant?

Roper

Maybe you're non-functional?

g'em

Roper wrote: »

Maybe you're non-functional?

So's yore ma.

wasabi stop encouraging him. You're both poopyheads.

Transform

Emmm with regards to the trap bar deadlifts (90% of readers will possibly never do them as most gyms do not have one) i am very sceptical of posts of trap bar lifts with big numbers and then you discover they were done using a high handle position!!!

Overall deadlift is still for me the purest of all exericses - you either picked the bar off the floor or your didn't, end of story. On squat people can cheat as on trap bar deadlifts with high handle position (which is useful to do from week to week) but i have never seen anyone pull a 400lb regular deadlift off the floor and did not look big/strong.

For me i rotate deadlifts/trap bar deadlifts and then front squats or cambered bar squats on another day.

remember guys and girls your doing WEIGHT TRAINING i.e. lifting porgressively heavier weights when you can.