15 Year Old Atheist...

Galvasean

CDfm wrote: »

and also mentions Dawkins with science.:mad:

Yeah, how dare someone mention Dawkins and science in the same breath. He's only a scientist after all.

CDfm

Galvasean wrote: »

Yeah, how dare someone mention Dawkins and science in the same breath. He's only a scientist after all.

the God Delusion is a comic and cant be a serious read. The theology isnt there. Dawkins chief target is Creationism which isnt even mainsream christianity.Professor D is a bit of a media whore.:mad:

Big Bang and evolution are accepted by believers.

I respect the OPs decision not to believe in God and his right to read.

Being an atheist doesnt make him a bad boy whatever or alternative -the OP is the same guy except he doesnt believe in God.Parents and others should respect that. 15 is a bit old to be told what to believe and he is right to read up and make up his own mind.

Denerick

I knew I didn't believe any of that crap since I was about 12/13. Went through all the stages of mass etc. in my teen years until around 17 I just stopped going. My dad is particularly religious and we've had too many arguments over it. He thinks I don't go because I'm not arsed getting up on a Sunday morning. I'm 20 now, and only go at weddings, funerals, once at christmas etc.

My advice is bear with it. Go to mass on a Sunday and devote it to some 'me' time. Really think for that 45 minutes in a world of your own. In that at least, it might be some use.

axer

CDfm wrote: »

the God Delusion is a comic and cant be a serious read. The theology isnt there. Dawkins chief target is Creationism which isnt even mainsream christianity.Professor D is a bit of a media whore.:mad:

Dawkins target is illogic, irational and superstitious beliefs - not just creationism. I think catholicism would then be considered a prime target.

I find it hilarous when the likes of catholics laugh or look down on those who believe in scientology or even creationism.

RHRN

sukikettle wrote: »

Hey 15-year old you'll get a lot of support in here from the same old pie holes spewing their anti-God stuff...you don't know Him because you know nothing about Him. You say you read Dawkins, science books and subscribed to some BBC thing...you never said you read the bible and came to any conclusion and by the way God isn't a catholic or a protestant or any other religion. He's just your Father and mine besmirched by centuries of religious nonsense. You need to peel back the layers kid. God isn't into sacraments and babbling prayers either. He's just into you and who you are...

I was forced to read the bible when I was younger. I had to go to some kids kinda sunday school when my parent's would be at Mass. They'd take all the kids out about half way through and tell them stories from the bible and give us passages to learn off (NEVER saw the point of that by the way) and other stuff. Before my confirmation my religion teacher made our class read the bible (well, not all of it obviously) alot.

Anyway, atheism is the belief that I am comfortable with. If God is into me and who I am, and isn't into sacraments and babbling prayers, surely he doesn't need me reading the Bible constantly.... or am I missing your point here?

Anyway, my decision to personally stop following the Christian faith was not a snap one, I would like to emphasise that. I went through... a sort of half-belief is the only way I can think of putting it as I took a serious look at my religion and why I had been following it all the time and what I came up with was:
My parents told me it was true.
I'd then taken a look at it myself and decided, well I don't believe it. They are many Christians today that just go through the motions (I'm not reffering to you sukikettle, you seem to be a true Christian and I respect that) but surely you must agree that it takes as strong a leap of faith to reject religion as I have, and to follow faith strongly like you and others do? This is just the direction I have taken, and the direction you have taken.

I considered my anaylsis of my religious beliefs something very important. It is not something I regret and I have had no thoughts of returning to the Christian faith, although in the early days I must admit I came close to pulling a Pascal.

Surely God, by whatever name people call him, respects people who are convicted in their beliefs, whatever they may be?

I don't want to start an argument as I know that we are not going to agree on alot of things regarding religion. As I can see, this is going off-topic quickly enough anyway....

RHRN

CDfm wrote: »

the God Delusion is a comic and cant be a serious read. The theology isnt there. Dawkins chief target is Creationism which isnt even mainsream christianity.Professor D is a bit of a media whore.:mad:

Big Bang and evolution are accepted by believers.

I respect the OPs decision not to believe in God and his right to read.

Being an atheist doesnt make him a bad boy whatever or alternative -the OP is the same guy except he doesnt believe in God.Parents and others should respect that. 15 is a bit old to be told what to believe and he is right to read up and make up his own mind.

I know the Big Bang and Evolution are accepted by many believers, just not (seemingly) by my parents. And it seems like a sort of Teenage Rebellion (to them probably) to not just reject Christianity but also their ideas on where the world came from etc.

Thanks for that message aswell by the way.

EDIT:

Sorry for souding like an idiot, but C of E is Church of England, right CDfm?

Also, as Phototoxin said, I would wager I know alot more about Catholicism then most Catholics.
By most Catholics I mean most, if not all Catholics I know personally. Obviously suki and the Christian board would wipe the board with me. It must be admitted that there's a growing trend of religious apathy and people saying "Eh, yeah I'm Christian", when they just go through the motions. In my third year religion class, I'm the only one that knew that the Immaculate Conception reffered to Mary as opposed to Jesus. I'm the only one who knew what happened to Saul on the road to Damascus when our teacher asked us. I could name the three wise men and no-one else could (granted that's more obscure (sorry, couldn't think of any other word) than the others) In fact, its embarrasing that my so-called Catholic class know so little about Catholicism.

Dades

RHRN, ignore sukikettle. Another outburst like that in your thread and she'll be gone (there is a history of thread derailing).

suki - last chance saloon.

lostexpectation

RHRN wrote: »

Ever since I was maybe 10/11 I kinda realised that "Hey.... I actually don't believe this stuff!"


Even though they know I read Dawkins and other atheist writers they seem to think I'm just some sort of intellectual (my bookshelf is filled with all sorts of science books, and I've had a subscription to BBC focus since I was 11), rather than reading atheistic literature because..... Hey, I'm an atheist!!

I'd also like to stress I'm not one of those "LOL GOD IS STOOPID" Atheists, but I mean I really thought about it long and hard before realising I didn't believe any of it.

so how long is the required length of thought?

I also hate having to go through the motions when my family go to mass and having to say prayers to a god I don't believe in, and accept sacraments in a religion I don't really follow.

What I want to ask is, should I tell my parents and family?!

is the consensus that the answers is no.

i wonder if you have any other opportunities to show your independence, or independence of thought, like i dunno going to festival and coming back in one piece or something. opportunities where they see you as person and not just their child which might convince em that you can make your own mind up on things.

Handsome Bob

sukikettle wrote: »

Like I said...same old pie holes. Goodnight kid and watch who you listen to;)

:pac:

I took a shot so I'll let that slide.

meglome

My father isn't that religious but he was brought up by his granny so he was thought that being religious was the right thing to do so it would be right and proper for his children to be religious. When I was 10 or 11 I realised I had no interest or belief in religion but I knew it wasn't going to be well received so I went through the motions. Pretending to go to Mass and just going anywhere but. By the time I was 17 I was getting very bored with this sneaking around so when asked one Sunday morning was I going to mass I said I wasn't and that I didn't believe, full stop. He told me that I wasn't 18 yet so I had to do what I was basically told, not that I was ever one for doing what I was told. So a few months later I was 18 I was asked the same question, "Are you going to mass?" I just said I'm 18 and I'm not going. He looked at me for a moment and left it at that, and never brought it up again. My father in fairness to him is a man of his word. Just thought I'd share, it being the time I'd be normally bunking mass back in the day.

CDfm

RHRN wrote: »

Sorry for souding like an idiot, but C of E is Church of England, right CDfm?

C of E is church of England.

Most of the science is accepted by the Catholic Church and it embraces most science and technology. Most Catholics are ignorant of the Theology.

I wouldnt worry about your parents too much. If you dont believe its not the end of the world.

CDfm

axer wrote: »

Dawkins target is illogic, irational and superstitious beliefs - not just creationism. I think catholicism would then be considered a prime target.

I find it hilarous when the likes of catholics laugh or look down on those who believe in scientology or even creationism.

This isnt about me and me scouring second hand bookshops and charities for copies of the God Delusion to burn.

Its about the OP.

The Mad Hatter

Dades wrote: »

suki - last chance saloon.

And they say atheists have no sense of charity...

seamus

Atheists dont believe there is any God behind the universe. Theists can't prove it.Stalemate.

FYP

One of the biggest things you'll come up against is the notion of it just being "a phase" that you'll grow out of. A lot of people will leave you alone to get the rebellion out of your system, which suits because it means that by the time you're old enough that it's no longer "a phase" (40), nobody will be shocked when you carry on being atheist.

Thoie gives some good pointers though - try to avoid it becoming something that you've made up out of thin air to get out of mass or school events or whatever, show that you've thought about it and that you really mean it.

One thing which many Atheists are unprepared for is the "well you explain it then", counter-attack. When you say that, "No I don't believe that there's a God", the counter-attack is usually one of the big questions; "Where did we come from", "Why does the universe exist?", "Why do we think", and so on and so forth.
This is where many atheists struggle and perhaps look weak because they feel like they need to offer an alternative. However, "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer. Many religious believers feel that a belief system has no credence if it doesn't offer answers to the big questions. After all, this is the point of religion in the first place - making up answers to unanswerable (for the moment) questions. They are wrong - a belief system is perfectly valid, even if it only says, "I don't know the answers". There is no *need* to answer these questions to be happy.
In fact it's one of the most liberating things in life to accept that you will never know the answers to some questions instead of making up some answers to fill that evolutionary bug in your brain which insists that everything needs an explanation.

Ultimately however because you're only 15 you may find that you've no choice but to do what your parents want you to do until you're 18 or so. It's regrettable, but you can make the most of that time - listen to the scriptures, listen to what they're saying and arm yourself, get to know the beliefs of the people who will try to convert you and who will attack your beliefs. There's no better weapon against a raving religious lunatic than to know their religion better than they do.

One thing that you can take out of any pain in this is that you're making an easier path for your younger sibling in two ways:

1. You're showing that there is in fact an alternative, that religious belief is in fact a choice which we're all entitled to make.
2. Older siblings always have to fight harder to get what they want, younger siblings encounter less resistance because parents are more comfortable with loosening the reigns.

CDfm

seamus wrote: »

FYP

One of the biggest things you'll come up against is the notion of it just being "a phase" that you'll grow out of. A lot of people will leave you alone to get the rebellion out of your system, which suits because it means that by the time you're old enough that it's no longer "a phase" (40), nobody will be shocked when you carry on being atheist.

I'm a Catholic and I dont see any of this as rebelion.RHRN if you have doubts you have doubts. If you are looking for proof for Gods existence along scientific lines that could go to a lab and get tested by physicists etc you are not going to get it.

Some atheists go all out and look for a type of Atheism that compensates for the lack of belief in God. Thats all I can come up with for the reason behind Memes etc.

I dont know if thats to fill a gap or what -its what some do.

axer

CDfm wrote: »

I'm a Catholic and I dont see any of this as rebelion.RHRN if you have doubts you have doubts. If you are looking for proof for Gods existence along scientific lines that could go to a lab and get tested by physicists etc you are not going to get it.

Going to a church definitely aint going to give you proof anyway.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

Some atheists go all out and look for a type of Atheism that compensates for the lack of belief in God. Thats all I can come up with for the reason behind Memes etc.

Memetics is a way of modeling the way cultural information moves around culture?

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Memetics is a way of modeling the way cultural information moves around culture?

Wicknight - I am an open minded guy ande this is what I make of Memetics

http://www.freewebs.com/ravensguild/

CDfm

axer wrote: »

Going to a church definitely aint going to give you proof anyway.

So you have the Bible - thats not good enough for you.

A Christian Affiliated Group funds the Voyage of the Beagle and puts a depressed Charles Darwin on the boat and the studies to explain the origan of the species for ya.Still not far enough.

Then a Catholic Priest Creates and explains the Big Bang Theory to you and you are still whinging.

I donno

philologos

RHRN wrote: »

Ever since I was maybe 10/11 I kinda realised that "Hey.... I actually don't believe this stuff!"

10 / 11 is quite a young age to call it a day on the God question. I don't think I was even that sure of my own faith at that stage.

RHRN wrote: »

I never told my parents about it when I was younger becuase I thought they wouldn't take me seriously.
Now, all my friends know I'm an atheist, and they don't really give a **** about it to be honest, neither does my religion teacher.

Of course they welcome your freedom of conscience as guaranteed in the constitution. I of course would argue that you are missing out on quite a lot, but then again that is the theistic mindset. Mind you at 15, I was an agnostic, so your religious views may go into a state of flux and change. Just curious, had you ever read what Christians actually believe (in the Biblical text) before you had dismissed it out of hand? I was actually surprised at some of the things that I had learned about Christianity that I wouldn't have discerned just from being at church.

RHRN wrote: »

But, I have this feeling that my parents most likely won't be as......... tolerable? Maybe thats not the right word but they certainly seem to be quite conservative anyway.

If they love you they will be. I can imagine how it might be difficult for them to come to terms with it at first, but eventually they will.

RHRN wrote: »

Even though they know I read Dawkins and other atheist writers they seem to think I'm just some sort of intellectual (my bookshelf is filled with all sorts of science books, and I've had a subscription to BBC focus since I was 11), rather than reading atheistic literature because..... Hey, I'm an atheist!!

If you want a fuller view of the God question, (I've read the God Delusion by Dawkins myself), you should read some Christian writers on the subject such as C.S Lewis, Lee Strobel, Francis Collins and so on for a start.

RHRN wrote: »

I'd also like to stress I'm not one of those "LOL GOD IS STOOPID" Atheists, but I mean I really thought about it long and hard before realising I didn't believe any of it.

That's somewhat of a relief.

RHRN wrote: »

I also hate having to go through the motions when my family go to mass and having to say prayers to a god I don't believe in, and accept sacraments in a religion I don't really follow.

You don't have to though surely?

RHRN wrote: »

What I want to ask is, should I tell my parents and family? If so, what should I say? I'm completely clueless A&A!

I think you should to be honest and clear about the issue.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

Wicknight - I am an open minded guy ande this is what I make of Memetics

http://www.freewebs.com/ravensguild/

Er, perhaps were are talking about two different things here.

A meme is a unit of cultural information. Memetics is the study of how these ideas move through cultures. It is basically a branch of human cultural studies

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

Er, perhaps were are talking about two different things here.

A meme is a unit of cultural information. Memetics is the study of how these ideas move through cultures. It is basically a branch of human cultural studies

so Memes is not a science

sink

CDfm wrote: »

so Memes is not a science

It's a social science like economics and anthropology as opposed to a natural science like physics, chemistry and biology.

Zombrex

CDfm wrote: »

so Memes is not a science

What?

Your link was to a web page about Psionics, which is producing supernatural abilities in the mind. What has this got to do with Memetics?

CDfm

Wicknight wrote: »

What?

Your link was to a web page about Psionics, which is producing supernatural abilities in the mind. What has this got to do with Memetics?

Memetics is not a natural science and cant be proven by empirical tests - so it is a nonsence as i understand scientific arguments against God beliefs.

It seems to me that lots of the arguments are cherry picked and co-opted without attributing them to their sources.So then the science arguments are billed as "the Facts the Christian Churches dont want you to Know" when in fact the science was developed by believers and was well known.

It that context its would be unfair on the OP to allow him to come away with the impression that he is reading dangerous and surpressed heresies when in fact the material is quite mainstream.

Mickeroo

CDfm wrote: »

So you have the Bible - thats not good enough for you.

A Christian Affiliated Group funds the Voyage of the Beagle and puts a depressed Charles Darwin on the boat and the studies to explain the origan of the species for ya.Still not far enough.

Then a Catholic Priest Creates and explains the Big Bang Theory to you and you are still whinging.

I donno

A book alone does not constitute proof.

Do you think Georges Lemaître is remebered because he was a priest or because he was a brilliant scientist?

CDfm

Mickeroo wrote: »

A book alone does not constitute proof.

Do you think Georges Lemaître is remebered because he was a priest or because he was a brilliant scientist?

Well I know that you dont accept the Bible and I wont go down that route on arguments etc.

Georges Lemaitre is not remembered as an atheist and was honoured by the Church for his work in his lifetime with the title Monsignor which is the rank of Bishop. He did not see any inconsistancies between his work and his faith.

He was a brilliant scientist and thinker whose work was recognised and promoted by Einstein. Einstein initialy disagreed with his Big Bang Theory but later agreed with his physics.

sink

CDfm wrote: »

Memetics is not a natural science and cant be proven by empirical tests - so it is a nonsence as i understand scientific arguments against God beliefs.

Social science works in similar ways to natural science. Even in natural science you can't prove a theory, you can only gather supporting evidence that fit's the theories model/prediction. It is the same in social science. You observe social phenomena and make assumptions to extrapolate a model, you then carry out further observations and/or experiments to try and stress test or disprove your model refining the model as you gather more data. You never definitively prove anything and models are rarely universal in social sciences. But you still rely upon economic theories to work despite their questionable veracity.

CDfm

sink wrote: »

Social science works in similar ways to natural science. Even in natural science you can't prove a theory, you can only gather supporting evidence that fit's the theories model/prediction. It is the same in social science. You observe social phenomena and make assumptions to extrapolate a model, you then carry out further observations and/or experiments to try and stress test or disprove your model refining the model as you gather more data. You never definitively prove anything and models are rarely universal in social sciences.

However what you dont point out is that social sciences use the language and methods of science but they are not sciences. I am not going to pretend that any marketing or economics work Ive done is actual science because it just isn't.

What Im saying is that it doesnt fit as a real theory and is just as provable or not as what it attempts to discredit.

Mickeroo

CDfm wrote: »

Well I know that you dont accept the Bible and I wont go down that route on arguments etc.

Georges Lemaitre is not remembered as an atheist and was honoured by the Church for his work in his lifetime with the title Monsignor which is the rank of Bishop. He did not see any inconsistancies between his work and his faith.

He was a brilliant scientist and thinker whose work was recognised and promoted by Einstein. Einstein initialy disagreed with his Big Bang Theory but later agreed with his physics.

I didn't ask you is he remembered as an atheist, nor did he suggest he was an atheist,he was a priest after all.

I just think he's remembered more for his work as a scientist, nobody would know who he is if it wasn't for his scientific achievments. I don't think it matters he was a priest.