Motorways and Buses - A new idea

Colm R

OK, I've been thinking about this for a while, espeically as our new motorways come on stream. Will our public transport buses use the motorways or will they remain on the original routes, for both intercity and commuter.

If you take for example the 109 Cavan Dublin route which is a commuter route, albeit a long one.

Upon collecting all passengers in Kells, the bus should proceed to the M3 and travel onto Navan. It should not use the old N3. At the same time you could have a minibus travel between Kells and Navan on the old road picking up passengers at the various bus stops at different points on the road. It could then proceed to a point near a slip road off the M3 which has access only to authorised veichles, process the tickets, and board the passengers onto the main bus/coach coming in the M3.

Implement the same set up between Navan and Dunshauglin, and again between Dunshauglin and Blancharstown.

Timetable the minibus to arrive at the purpose built depot near the motorway 5 min before the main bus, and if the depot is access only to authorised vehicles, the driver can assume that all passengers have paid for the journey thus speed up the boarding.

Implement a system whereby, the main bus will know beforehand if there is anyone at a bus depot to pick up, before exiting the motorway. Unless someone has to get off there.

Obviously the main bus should go into each main town where it has a much more passengers to pick up.

If you move this into the intercity routes, timetables can become far more accurate if the main bus is using the motorway all the way. Someone waiting in Durrow for a bus to Dublin is relying on a timetable where the bus departs Cork. Consequently, a minibus travelling shorter distances is far more likely to get its timetable correct. So you could have a depots somewhere outside Fermoy, Cashel, Urlingford, Portlaoise, Kildare.


Pro: Shortening the overall journey time as the main bus spends more time on the express route.

Con: Requires accuracy and investment. (This could be a pro) Accuracy to get the timetable right and reliable with the buses that do not use the motorway. Investment on buses and drivers as well as the "depots"!!!

Con: Requires passengers to change buses mid journey. This is not a major con, if the reliability is there in the first place. Once you get over the idea of changing buses, the rest of the journey is much faster.

Pro: If it is reliable, it could help getting people out of their cars.

Con: If you build it, they may not come.

Pro: If you build it, they may come.


I'm sure there is massive holes in my argument that I have not thought of.

Let Rip.

Goofy

I've been thinking the same thing recently. I have used the limerick to dublin route a lot. There is a shiny new motorway from Portlaoise to Dublin (pretty much) but the bus turns off right at the first exit and and doesnt rejoin until the curragh. madness!!

If you apply you're idea to this route, have 1 depot beside the motorway near Portlaoise and another in the Curragh and have a bus running between them servicing portlaoise, monseterevin kildare etc. this would knock loads of time of the journey and possibly make it a viable alternative to cars and trains.

The problem with the idea is, as you say,cost. The cost of the new mini(?) busses. The cost of extra drivers. There would be a massive overlap of services.

Brilliant in theory, but in practice........

loyatemu

you'd need pickup\dropoff areas on both sides of the motorway with a bridge or underpass between them. Its a sound idea though - you're essentially using the motorway as a "busway". You could put P&R facilities at the exchanges.

You would need to make sure that the buses continued to have a clear run into the city with appropriate bus priority measures. If they were flying up the motorway only to grind to a halt as soon as they crossed the M50 then it wouldn't offer much advantage over driving in the first place. The local minibus idea also requires more buses and more drivers.

corktina

would it be easier to have alternate buses express and stopping?...the first calling at selected points only and the second timed to meet it at (say) Port Laoise to rtansfer pasengers.

Or you caould have the first bus express Port Laoise to Dublin and the second express Limerick to Port Laoise and timetable them to meet up to transfer passengers.

marmurr1916

We could do with at least four levels of bus service on long-distance routes:

local: stops at all towns and villages en route

eg: Dublin to Cork via all towns and villages on/near N7/M7 and N8/M8.

regional: only stops at larger towns en route; passengers for intermediate destinations get off and change

eg: Dublin to Cork via Naas, Newbridge, Portlaoise, Cashel, Cahir, Mitchelstown, Fermoy.

express: only stops at largest towns en route; passengers for intermediate destinations get off and change

eg: Dublin to Cork via Portlaoise, Cahir, Fermoy.

non-stop: exactly what it says - bus leaves one terminus, doesn't stop until it reaches final destination (one rest-stop at intermediate Motorway Services Area or alternative rest-stop may be allowed)

eg: Dublin to Cork (one rest-stop at Cashel Motorway Services Area when complete; stop at Durrow village pending completion of M8 & MSAs)

However, it would be preferable to have toilets on the coaches (like on many UK coaches) so that no rest-stop needs to be made, allowing for a genuine non-stop service.

Colm R

corktina wrote: »

would it be easier to have alternate buses express and stopping?...the first calling at selected points only and the second timed to meet it at (say) Port Laoise to rtansfer pasengers.

Or you caould have the first bus express Port Laoise to Dublin and the second express Limerick to Port Laoise and timetable them to meet up to transfer passengers.

This is another idea. On the Cork Dublin, I've noticed they do this, but its not predictable. They lay on a second bus to express if demand dictates. So if you are in Cork getting the bus to Dublin, you are actually hoping it will be busy so you can get the second express bus.

What I'm trying to get at here, is instead of letting drivers go, Bus Eireann and the government really need to start thinking of new ways of doing business. For long distance bus journeys in Ireland, you generally have passengers that have no alternative. I don't know anyone who would get the bus to anywhere over 2 hours away if they have a car.

My idea might not be a runner, but the current system is not really a runner anymore either.

If I need to go home to Cork, driving is cheaper than the train. But if I knew the bus would go from the Red Cow to the Jack Lynch Tunnel in 3 hours, I would really consider it. Obviously getting to the middle of the city centers is another problem, but those problems exist now anyway.

From a commuting perspective, a commuter in Kells may consider changing to the bus, if they knew it would stop only 3 times on the way in to Dublin. At present that bus can stop up to 6 times between Kells and Navan alone.

The bus from Ashbourne to Dublin can stop up 6 times between Rathoath roundabout and the M50.

Commuting from Fermoy, Middleton, and more could all be dealt with the same way.

markpb

Colm R wrote: »

This is another idea. On the Cork Dublin, I've noticed they do this, but its not predictable. They lay on a second bus to express if demand dictates. So if you are in Cork getting the bus to Dublin, you are actually hoping it will be busy so you can get the second express bus.

I think someone posted here recently saying that BE weren't allow run expresses to Cork because DoT said it competes with a private operator. Technically those overflow/expresses are illegal.

The problem with these suggestions, and they are good, is political. Until the MoT and DoT gets their collective thumbs out of their asses and does something for the general good, we're going backwards.

Mushy

markpb wrote: »

I think someone posted here recently saying that BE weren't allow run expresses to Cork because DoT said it competes with a private operator. Technically those overflow/expresses are illegal.

The problem with these suggestions, and they are good, is political. Until the MoT and DoT gets their collective thumbs out of their asses and does something for the general good, we're going backwards.

What private company go that route? Cos I would get the bus to Cork more often as its cheaper, bit going slowly through all the towns when there are motorways along the way is painful, so opt for the train.

Colm R

Aircoach operate the route. They don't really do express though.

I have not used them in a long time but they use to skip lots of the M7. Are they skipping lots of the M8 these days?

Mushy

Colm R wrote: »

Aircoach operate the route. They don't really do express though.

I have not used them in a long time but they use to skip lots of the M7. Are they skipping lots of the M8 these days?

Ah yes, got that once, stopped in a few places. Although that was before the motorway was in place, so don't know about now.

Chris_533976

Citylink Galway to Dublin advertise as an Express service, but as it stands they leave the motorway at Athlone and dont join it again until you almost get to Lucan.

Carawaystick

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Citylink Galway to Dublin advertise as an Express service, but as it stands they leave the motorway at Athlone and dont join it again until you almost get to Lucan.

qft, it took the Mother in Law ovr 4 hours to get to Dublin Airport form Loughrea on an express Citylink service.

You'ld imagine running direct from Athlone to Dublin at least every other hour would free up a load of bus/driver time I can't see how much custom they'd get from Rochfortbridge to BSloe or even Galway

Zoney

Not much advantage to the buses using the motorways if they remain limited to 80 km/h as they are at present (mostly they stick to this as to do otherwise would mean hitting intermediate stops too early - but I have occasionally been on buses that not only *seem* to speed - e.g. overtaking lorries and not being overtaken so much by cars - but arrive quite a bit earlier than scheduled).

Carawaystick

some coach companies are renouned for speeding busses, One companies coaches have passed me doing over 70mph a few times.

I doubt it'd be safe to go 80kmh on lots of the old N6 from Kinnegad to Rochfortbridge, let alone travelling at 50 through the towns and villages in Offally and Westmeath on the route. let alone tractor delays etc.

Anyhoo most coaches are limited to 100kmh, And any I've been on seem to drive at that limit where appropriate.

Cleopatra12

All BE coache have tacographs and their speed can be tracked by management so drivers cant speed... plus there are limiters on all of the buses too!

Geogregor

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

All BE coache have tacographs and their speed can be tracked by management so drivers cant speed... plus there are limiters on all of the buses too!

So, speed limit for buses in Ireland is 80 kph? On motorway?
Why? In most of Europe it is 100 kph. Are you motorways somehow substantial to European ones?

Chris_533976

Officially buses are not supposed to go over 80kmh.

However, this never happens, I carry my handheld GPS with me (helps SO MUCH at night to find out how much more of the godawful journey you have left) and yeah, they never stick to 80. Tho I've never seen one go over about 102 (on 100 DCs).

That said, I personally dont mind as I get home quicker Why is there an 80 limit anyway? If it were 100 (or 110 on motorways) the buses would be that bit more attractive than the car.

corktina

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

All BE coache have tacographs and their speed can be tracked by management so drivers cant speed... plus there are limiters on all of the buses too!

limiters can be bypassed and no doubt are...Irish trucks for instance are famous on the M4 in the UK for beiong the fastest vehicles on the road

Vic_08

Zoney wrote: »

Not much advantage to the buses using the motorways if they remain limited to 80 km/h as they are at present (mostly they stick to this as to do otherwise would mean hitting intermediate stops too early - but I have occasionally been on buses that not only *seem* to speed - e.g. overtaking lorries and not being overtaken so much by cars - but arrive quite a bit earlier than scheduled).

Speed limit for all coaches is 100kph on Motorways and Dual Carriageways, 80kph on other roads. Limiters are set to 100kph

Single and double deck buses are only allowed 65kph, limiters are set to 70kph

There is only a significant advantage in using the motorways if you can stay on them for long stretches. On bus routes that still have to stop at major towns the gain made by staying at high speed is lost in the approach roads, numerous roundabouts and longer route mileage.

antoinolachtnai

The idea of using coaches for fast intercity seems to be quite a good one. There is a paper about it here.

http://www.eire.com/2008/04/13/solving-intercity-transport-in-ireland/

It is also mentioned in one of Monbiot's books.

It is also suggested to increase the motorway speed limit for coaches to above the speed limit for cars. On the face of it, this seems like a fairly sensible idea.

To make motorways really work for coaches, you have to do civil works to set up the sorts of stops and interchanges that are described by other posters above. This would cost tens of millions of euros for a route.

But when you look at it, this is inexpensive if you get a decent reduction in journey time. It is certainy very inexpensive compared to building any sort of parallel system, such as a train. It is very inexpensive indeed compared to the cost of car transport.

There is potential to do the same to provide an express service around the M50. Again, not a cheap thing to set up or run, but cheaper than rail alternatives and providing a more flexible service.

Zoney

Better off investing the rail network - after all the motorways are mostly along main routes that have a rail connection.

corktina

Vic_08 wrote: »

Speed limit for all coaches is 100kph on Motorways and Dual Carriageways, 80kph on other roads. Limiters are set to 100kph

Single and double deck buses are only allowed 65kph, limiters are set to 70kph


Is there a definition of "BUS" and "Coach" because as far as Im aware the only difference is usually defined by the standard of seating and therefore you can get abus with coach seats and coaches with bus seats,(usually refered to as "dual purpose" )

Chris_533976

Zoney wrote: »

Better off investing the rail network - after all the motorways are mostly along main routes that have a rail connection.

Agreed up to a point The railways would be far more expensive though.

Plus Cork to Galway will never be viable by rail, once the motorways are done a fast express bus might be a good answer.

spareman

Cleopatra12 wrote: »

All BE coache have tacographs and their speed can be tracked by management so drivers cant speed... plus there are limiters on all of the buses too!

Not true, Ive driven one, No tacographs fitted on shorter routes. eg Dublin to Wicklow, And Ive been overtaken by many a speeding BE vehicle. Drivers are under sever pressure due to shocking running times. eg. Dublin to wicklow 50 mins

dub_commuter

When I've travelled Aircoach to Belfast, it's very noticeable that they speed up as soon as they cross the boarder! However since the regulations changed they seem to be faster in Ireland.

Vic_08

spareman wrote: »

Not true, Ive driven one, No tacographs fitted on shorter routes. eg Dublin to Wicklow, And Ive been overtaken by many a speeding BE vehicle. Drivers are under sever pressure due to shocking running times. eg. Dublin to wicklow 50 mins

Sorry, spareman but you are completely wrong on this one. All of our coaches, double deckers, single deckers and even mini-buses have tacographs fitted.

Drivers permanently rostered on short routes such as Dublin-Ashbourne would not be required to use them, everyone else including Dublin-Wicklow drivers are required to use them and would be incredibly foolish not to.

As for being under serious pressure, I for one don't. If I am late then so be it, I get overtime if I run late and if I can't complete a trip within 4.5 hours then I take my required 45min and leave late.

spareman

Vic_08 wrote: »

Sorry, spareman but you are completely wrong on this one. All of our coaches, double deckers, single deckers and even mini-buses have tacographs fitted.

Drivers permanently rostered on short routes such as Dublin-Ashbourne would not be required to use them, everyone else including Dublin-Wicklow drivers are required to use them and would be incredibly foolish not to.

I meant they were not used on short routes, I thought Dublin to Wicklow was just under the required distance for tacograph to be used, maybe I'm wrong.
Was I right about the incredibly bad running times you boys are expected to operate?

Danno

Nice idea, but how about we kill most of the busses that are ran Dublin to Cork and have shuttle services to the rail station instead? Only run a Dublin Cork bus when there are no trains going. :rolleyes:

Vic_08

corktina wrote: »

Is there a definition of "BUS" and "Coach" because as far as Im aware the only difference is usually defined by the standard of seating and therefore you can get abus with coach seats and coaches with bus seats,(usually refered to as "dual purpose" )

Coach would refer to any large PSV designed to carry seated passengers only. If it is designed or modified to carry standees it is subject to the lower limit.

corktina

ah thank you..that makes sense....

Vic_08

spareman wrote: »

I meant they were not used on short routes, I thought Dublin to Wicklow was just under the required distance for tacograph to be used, maybe Im wrong.
Was I right about the incredibly bad running times you boys are expected to operate?

My understanding is that it is only if all work is under the required distance are you allowed drive under Irish rather than EU regs and not use tacoraphs. As I am spare this would not apply to me anyway so I always use them.

The only running boards in Broadstone that are marked as non-EU are on the 103 Ashbourne, 105 Ratoath 104 Asbourne- Blanchardstown and Balbriggan town service. Of these only the 103 and 105 have drivers that only do these routes. The others are covered by drivers on mixed blocks; one day you would be going around in circles in Balbriggan 20+ times, next day the Dublin-Belfast or Donegal express.


Some routes have bad running times alright, some are far too short and on others particularly off-peak you end up sitting at intermediate points waiting on time. To be fair though I have never been pressured to keep unrealistic times or cut short breaks. It is my responsibility to keep within the regulations and I wouldn't let anyone pressure me into breaking them.