How to improve a BER rating?

newtoboards

Just checked and the landlord isn't - I was hoping to be able to claim rent relief when the house was sold (note of optimism) but we'll have to get this sorted asap as I want to have rights as a tenant!

Carlow52

newtoboards wrote: »

Just checked and the landlord isn't - I was hoping to be able to claim rent relief when the house was sold (note of optimism) but we'll have to get this sorted asap as I want to have rights as a tenant!

AFAIK tax relief not available if he not registered.

have a peep on this site
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/archive/index.php

dunie001

Just to clarify a point about the draught lobby that seems to have been looked by everyone on this topic...

An unheated draught lobby in the form of an external porch should NOT be counted as part of the area of the dwelling. However, the door between the dwelling and the porch is an element adjacent to an unheated space and its U-value should be calculated accordingly.

Basically, if the draught lobby is within the building envelope i.e. not external then it doesn't matter if it is heated or not. However if the draught lobby is an external lobby then it must be heated to be included in DEAP.:cool:

sinnerboy

dunie001 wrote: »

Just to clarify a point about the draught lobby that seems to have been looked by everyone on this topic...

An unheated draught lobby in the form of an external porch should NOT be counted as part of the area of the dwelling. However, the door between the dwelling and the porch is an element adjacent to an unheated space and its U-value should be calculated accordingly.

Basically, if the draught lobby is within the building envelope i.e. not external then it doesn't matter if it is heated or not. However if the draught lobby is an external lobby then it must be heated to be included in DEAP.:cool:

you clarification needs clarification

If a draft lobby "is within the building envelope" - its area is counted .

If it is unheated and outside the the insulated external envelope its area is not counted

But if it fulfills the DEAP criteria for a Draft lobby ( in either case ) - you can enter "yes" in the ventilation section

dunie001

thanks sinnerboy for the clarification of my clarification!!! lol!:D:D

I just wonder if anyone else has noticed that most draught lobby's in older houses are only 1.8 - 1.9m2 in area and cannot be included....despite the fact that the house may have been built in 70's or 80's and nobody could have known that in 30yrs it would have to be a min area 2m2, seems a bit unfair on older houses that already have a bad energy rating...just a thought!

nodenrg

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough!

I think if it's under 2 sq.m. but you can park a buggy in it while you open the inner door after closing the outer one it would be harsh not to count it.

(I hope that was clear!)

sydthebeat

ive just completed a BEr on a per 1900 single storey cottage with 94-99 dormer extension...

it came out as a G rating.. .fair enough..

suggested upgrade the cottage walls from 2.1 to 0.27 reduces energy value by 1517 kw/hr..

however...

suggesting going from 0 - 100% LELs along with new cylinder with 80mm factory insulation RAISES the energy value by 680kw/hr... WTF!!???

whats happening here??

topcatcbr

nodenrg wrote: »

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough!

I think if it's under 2 sq.m. but you can park a buggy in it while you open the inner door after closing the outer one it would be harsh not to count it.

(I hope that was clear!)

It may be harsh but a fgure has to be agreed to avoid confusion and in this case it is 2m. This is not a large porch in my opinion and is a fairly minimal figure.

sinnerboy

1980's hollow block E1 rating 308 kwh/m2/year

Increase lagging jacket from 30mm to 100mm - rating goes to .....
316 wh/m2/year

Remove lagging jacket - i.e. enter 0mm Rating jumps to D2 - 282 kwh/m2/year

( advice to client - strip the lagging off and skip it ??? )

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

1980's hollow block E1 rating 308 kwh/m2/year

Increase lagging jacket from 30mm to 100mm - rating goes to .....
316 wh/m2/year

Remove lagging jacket - i.e. enter 0mm Rating jumps to D2 - 282 kwh/m2/year

( advice to client - strip the lagging off and skip it ??? )

wheres the logic?

if DEAP assumes the cylinder acts as space heating instead of water heating, then the elemental u values come into it...

im confused....

one for SEI i think

dunie001

Try restarting DEAP and see what happens. Also check all your figures to make sure you didn't make a silly mistake that may be throwing the whole BER off.

This happened to someone in another post and I think he entered one of the figures in wrong, which is what threw the whole thing off...

sinnerboy

Done that . Also transferred back into DEAP 2 so "pinks" were all highlighted and checked .

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

ive just completed a BEr on a per 1900 single storey cottage with 94-99 dormer extension...

it came out as a G rating.. .fair enough..

suggested upgrade the cottage walls from 2.1 to 0.27 reduces energy value by 1517 kw/hr..

however...

suggesting going from 0 - 100% LELs along with new cylinder with 80mm factory insulation RAISES the energy value by 680kw/hr... WTF!!???

whats happening here??

topcat figured out what my problem was...

i inputted 0.3 instead of 30% for secondary heating efficiency

many thanks TC!!!

dunie001

I'd say you're the fourth person i've heard of to make that mistake...at least it's solved now anyway.

I'm surprised it wasn't flagged as an error in DEAP the way other things usually are.

What is the energy rating now out of curiosity?

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

topcat figured out what my problem was...

i inputted 0.3 instead of 30% for secondary heating efficiency

many thanks TC!!!

Snap - sort of .

Wrong entries in fuel data for water heating ...

corrected values are

30mm Jacket E2 372
0mm Jacket F 397
100mm Jacket E2 367

TC - you are well named !

topcatcbr

:oIm getting all embarresed now.

dunie001

:oIm getting all embarresed now

topcatcbr you deserve all the praise you're getting...plus you managed to pounce on it before me, so I must say I'm gutted that I didn't get there first!;)

Anyway to get this topic back on track...

Other things to improve rating...

1. Completely block up the chimney or replace open fire with a stove. Although I think blocking up the chimney is a cheaper solution, however most people can't do without their "Tíne" in the house.

2. Put thermostat on cylinder and get new cylinder with factory fitted insulation.

3. Get walls pumped.

4. Insulate the attic.

5. Admit defeat and buy a new house!:rolleyes:

6. Buy a better boiler.

Anybody have any idea how or why installing new radiators doesn't affect the BER or why they haven't been accounted for anywhere in the DEAP software???:o

Some people spend fortunes getting more effective radiators installed only to discover that it doesn't matter a damn because DEAP doesn't care how old/new the radiators are...

maybe this is an issue that should be raised with SEI...anyone agree?

sydthebeat

all radiators do is regulate the rate at which heat is dispersed into the atmosphere....
the only way the could affect a BER is if they affected the responsiveness catagory... which is doubtful...

older rads simply convect slower than newer ones.. the fuel consumed to produce the heat is the same...

dunie001

Surely though the quicker radiators can convect heat into the room to the required temperature then the less time the Heating will need to be running to achieve the required temp....

and surely if that is the case then the boiler won't be firing for as long and therefore less oil/gas is burned meaning the entire system is running more efficiently..

sydthebeat

dunie001 wrote: »

Surely though the quicker radiators can convect heat into the room to the required temperature then the less time the Heating will need to be running to achieve the required temp....

and surely if that is the case then the boiler won't be firing for as long and therefore less oil/gas is burned meaning the entire system is running more efficiently..

no.

There is convector heaters, and there are radiant heaters.

Its all about control.

A convector heater (incorrectly called radiators) disperses heat directly to the rooms atmosphere. However this heat first has to heat up the colder denser surfaces including walls and floors, before it begins to heat the air. In order for the air to be heated up quicker, these rads are set at high temperatures, thus need to burn more fuel to reach these temps.

Radiant heaters are designed to heat a dense material source, which, when heated to a set temp, switches off the fuel source. The heat within the material is then slowly radiated into the rooms atmosphere. This heating source uses less energy.

For a practical example, say you had two identical rooms. One is heated by an electric oil heater, the other by an electric storage heater. If the room stats are set to the temp, and left over 24 hours i can guarantee you that the oil heater would use a significantly more amount of energy in those 24 hrs.

dunie001

For a practical example, say you had two identical rooms. One is heated by an electric oil heater, the other by an electric storage heater. If the room stats are set to the temp, and left over 24 hours i can guarantee you that the oil heater would use a significantly more amount of energy in those 24 hrs.

Thats true syd, however it's also true that if the storage heater isn't set "just so" then you'll end up walking round the room nekkid and with all the windows open...cursing the damn storage heaters which just keep pumping out heat regardless of what temp the room is!

So sometimes an electric oil heater (i.e. cold spell in summer) would actually be more efficient because once they are off, then that's that. Of course having both systems would be the most effective...

Anyway, my rant was about bog standard steel radiators fed by a boiler. I'm basically wondering because we have 80's radiators downstairs and modern radiators upstairs....there always seems to be more heat in the rooms upstairs. Although I'm well aware that that heat could simply be "radiating" from downstairs to upstairs which is also better insulated.

Although the heat in the newer rads seems to be better dispursed around the entire radiator as opposed to the older radiators which just seem to ever get hot at the top of the radiator, while the rest of it is stone cold...

edmund r

Hi sydthebeat

you previoulsy mentioned this in a old posting

ive just completed a BEr on a per 1900 single storey cottage with 94-99 dormer extension...

it came out as a G rating.. .fair enough..

suggested upgrade the cottage walls from 2.1 to 0.27 reduces energy value by 1517 kw/hr..

however...

suggesting going from 0 - 100% LELs along with new cylinder with 80mm factory insulation RAISES the energy value by 680kw/hr... WTF!!???

The reason I'm asking is I have a report here and I cant figure out how the kwh/day is being calculated for example a roof.
Assuming area of 161m2 and assuming mineral wool with a conductivity of 0.04W/mk and an overall U-Value of 0.156 W/m2K the energy savings would be 19.5 kwh. How is he going about calculating the energy savings per day? May seem a stupid question but would appreciate your help as it's wrecking my head!!

cheers

caesarthechimp

The u values are in w/m2/K

The results are in different units; kwh/m2/year

d'Oracle

edmund r wrote: »

The reason I'm asking is I have a report here and I cant figure out how the kwh/day is being calculated for example a roof.
Assuming area of 161m2 and assuming mineral wool with a conductivity of 0.04W/mk and an overall U-Value of 0.156 W/m2K the energy savings would be 19.5 kwh. How is he going about calculating the energy savings per day? May seem a stupid question but would appreciate your help as it's wrecking my head!!

cheers

Hi edmund.

The only way someone could calculate a kWh/Day would be heavily averaged to the point of irrelevance. It would involve getting the Per annum kWh consumption output from DEAP and dividing it by 365 and subtracting it from a pre altered value.

The problem is that, as I'm sure you know, one day ain't the same as the next. Frankly it suggests poor understanding of the process involved in DEAP.

So while this figure will give you an indicative saving, its not a very accurate one.

senordingdong

nodenrg wrote: »

An extra layer of 200mm quilt insulation over the joists laid at right angles will make a difference. As well as Wall2wall's comments consider draught proofing windows and doors, dry lining where practical and introducing a draught lobby or porch if possible, though this must be a minimum of 2 sq.m. Even curtains can make a difference!

How much would it cost to lay some down in the attic?

sheff the ref

An open fire seems to be the death knell of a high rating in a BER cert.

senordingdong

sheff the ref wrote: »

An open fire seems to be the death knell of a high rating in a BER cert.

I plugged mine up with a fifteen euro chimney balloon.
Worth investing in.

MOTM

Bear in mind that the chimney baloon doesn't impact the BER rating. It is a temporary restriction (although, yes, while it is in place it will reduce the draft in the chimney).

senordingdong

MOTM wrote: »

Bear in mind that the chimney baloon doesn't impact the BER rating. It is a temporary restriction (although, yes, while it is in place it will reduce the draft in the chimney).

Really? I would have assumed that stopping the draft would count some way to improving insulation.

MOTM

senordingdong wrote: »

Really? I would have assumed that stopping the draft would count some way to improving insulation.

Not if its a temporary blockage (such as a chimney balloon) according to DEAP manual section 2.1 (and its not the insulation it would improve anyway, its the ventilation loss).