Arctic ARW units and RAF in rescue mission in Glen of imaal.

cyrusdvirus

vulcan57 wrote: »

Excuse me, my friend, I am not suggesting or implying, for one minute that the SAS were in Wicklow yesterday, nor did it even enter my mind!. The RAF sent an MRT over without thought along with a rescue helicopter from RAF Valley, fair play to them, and the ARW did a sterling job putting their arctic training to good use. All I was suggesting was exactly as I had written it that maybe if a similar situation arose in the UK that the Irish would respond with equal enthusiasm as the British did in this case.

I DID say i was in a mischievous mood!

I was just reading it from 'outside the box' so to speak... You saying that the ARW would go to England on an SAR when they are the elite unit in the Irish Defence Forces to turn the tables..... Kinda implies that the SAS (as the elite unit in the British Armed Forces) were here on this SAR....

twinytwo

gatecrash wrote: »

I DID say i was in a mischievous mood!

I was just reading it from 'outside the box' so to speak... You saying that the ARW would go to England on an SAR when they are the elite unit in the Irish Defence Forces to turn the tables..... Kinda implies that the SAS (as the elite unit in the British Armed Forces) were here on this SAR....

You mean one of the elite units...... If you were in a "mischievous mood" why not stick in the mitty ??.. thats what its there for:pac:

cyrusdvirus

cos i don't know how to move an entire thread

Morpheus

This is my thread.

I dont want it moved.

SAS were not involved, ARW were, im sure if british requested it we would send all we could including military specialist rescue / EOD etc teams if necessary.

NoQuarter

DELTA were involved too



/end trolling

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

nipplenuts wrote: »

Who is going to foot the bill? For two men old enough to know better. I am of the opinion there should be insurance in place before people go "hill walking" in what are patently unsafe conditions. Or they should have to pay from whatever means they have.

What would the cost of this have been?

GTFO, AH is that way

---

>

I am sure you would take out the chequebook immediately after being rescued. Pfft!!!

Fishtits

The guys were found all OK, Good outcome.

But, "they lost their map"

Piss poor performance to put it mildly,

I get the feeling that they were buddy's of the local rescue organisations, hence the lack of criticism and the "every" resource available being called...

Local-womanizer

The conditions were perfect when they set off.

Weather deterioreted rapidly,map blew away.These two where experiance hikers where they not?

The fact that the ARW took time out of their training to search for these people must have some indication to the conditions.The climbers could hear the chopper above them but couldent see it because of the fog.

Who gives a s***e what the cost were in fairness.How do you think their families would feel if they had died because nobody looked for them for fear of public backlash over the cost.

Fair play to all involved in the rescue imo.Its good to know people are willing to risk there lives for strangers.

Its a sad time when people start putting a price on peoples lives.........

BigDuffman

Nice to see people putting a value on human life... who cares about the cost I'd prefer to shell out a few shillings than leave to lads out to die.

Also its good to see we have so many super-men on this board. After reading an account of the ordeal it is glaringly obvious that this could of happened to even the most experienced of us. White out conditions, no map and with nightfall steadily approaching I'm sure ye keyboard warriors and chairborne rangers could of skipped merrily down the side of the mountain.

The very fact that it took experienced MRTs and the ARW so long to find the lads even though they were in contact by mobile phone is an indication of how treacherous the conditions were.

According to accounts, one of the lads in question actually lived in the shadow of the mountain and knew it like the back of his hand. The fact that both were experienced mountaineers probably saved their life.

BeardyGit

Fishtits wrote: »

I get the feeling that they were buddy's of the local rescue organisations, hence the lack of criticism and the "every" resource available being called...

You're very mistaken. That's a bit of an offensive presumption you've made there....

Mates Rates don't apply for Mountain Rescue. We'd mobilise every required asset and resource to rescue anyone who needs it, whether or not they know people on an MRT. The simple fact is that MRT members are mountaineers, and therefore know or will have at least met at some time other mountaineers. Especially those who visit the same hills we train and operate on - It's an inevitability I guess....

Your suggestion is akin to inferring a member of the fire brigade would use the 'better' tools to cut a friend from a car wreck than he would a normal Joe Soap. Does that sound offensive to you? Because it certainly does to me.

As to whether or not MRT's were 'critical', I'd suggest you review the facts pertaining to the incident, not just your cursory knowledge gleaned from misreports in the media, apply some common sense and relevant personal experience (which I suspect you may not have as a mountaineer), then come back and tell me exactly what we should criticise them for. The guys had a mishap, lost their map to a c70Kph wind (I lost my glove to the same wind when trying to change radio channels), and ended up spending a hellish night on an exposed mountainside in truly arctic conditions. What would you criticise in the middle of an operation to save them?

In fact, tell me when we're EVER critical of someone who's found themselves in need of our care and services. Go on....you won't find it. We'll certainly alert people to an opportunity to do things differently in future, but what purpose will it serve to publicly hammer two men who've genuinely suffered through an ordeal like that?

We're simply happy we could all play a part in saving the lives of two men. Who or what they are doesn't matter to us. A second night on the hills would have killed them, I've no doubt in my mind of that, having spent 9+ hours near the summit myself on Monday night.....

Thanks for the support from those of you in the Defense Forces all around this country who never fail to wade in with your local MRT's, and to the Irish public in general for helping us out by fundraising and donating towards our costs. It's genuinely appreciated and is the difference between having our service or not.

Gil

www.dwmrt.ie

Rew

Sleipnir wrote: »

The SAS don't do rescue. THe ARW was just helping out, that's all

Really? What about hostage rescue? I aslo belive that the SAS were deployed in to Lowes Gully in Malaysia to rescue 18 brit soldiers who got lost/trapped. They also were involved in the imediate aftermath of a passanger plane crash in the UK (pure chance that they were driving by when it happend). So i reckon they do plenty of rescue jsut not in this case.

BigDuffman

Rew wrote: »

Really? What about hostage rescue? I aslo belive that the SAS were deployed in to Lowes Gully in Malaysia to rescue 18 brit soldiers who got lost/trapped. They also were involved in the imediate aftermath of a passanger plane crash in the UK (pure chance that they were driving by when it happend). So i reckon they do plenty of rescue jsut not in this case.

Very off topic bu was that an Andy Mcnabb or Chris Ryan book that detaild the "Them" stopping to lend a hand at the crash site?

Rew

BigDuffman wrote: »

Very off topic bu was that an Andy Mcnabb or Chris Ryan book that detaild the "Them" stopping to lend a hand at the crash site?

No it was in another book (or two) that I compleatly forgot the name of it but it had nothing to do with either of them.

Rew

Rew wrote: »

No it was in another book (or two) that I compleatly forgot the name of it but it had nothing to do with either of them.

Found it, SAS The Soldiers Story


Bit of googling to remind me of the title:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/British-Midland-Flight-092

In the book SAS The Soldiers Story an SAS trooper named Johnny Two-Combs describes how, on the way to a training course, he and his troop were traveling along the M1 when the air crash happened. The unit offered to help and in the news footage of the wrecked aircraft, a member of the team can be seen rappelling down from the tail of the plane. The Army truck is also visible in some photos.

My memmory of the book is that he said the photos showed their climbing gear securing the tail of the aircraft from moving/falling not that someone was abing off it!

tricky D

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Its a sad time when people start putting a price on peoples lives.........

Well actuaries put prices on lives all the time and would likely point out that the cost to the economy of losing just one person in these circumstances would be much much greater than the rescue costs. Anyway that's merely an academic argument.



Anybody knows a bit about rescues, who has been involved and/or who lives by the sea or other dangerous area, would think that making anyone pay for rescuing is an absurd notion. Most rescues are due to accidents, they happen, plain and simple. Very, very rarely is sheer stupdity or wilful negligence to blame which would only usually be established after the fact anyway.


Tip o' the hat to all involved.

trentf

I have a question. Nobody seems to have asked this. What was the RAF doing on our soil? Did we need them? Could this not have been handled by the arw in conjunction with the irish coast gaurd? I mean they have the equipment so just curious as to why the raf or members of the raf were called into what is essentially soverign terroritory.

If we asked them then i have an issue with this as it raises some questions as to why we couldn't have handled it ourselves seeing as it was on our territory.

The following line i find unusual.

'

A RAF Sea King helicopter also flew in a specialist military rescue team from RAF Valley in Wales while an Irish Coast Guard helicopter from Waterford also transported a civilian rescue unit across the Irish Sea from the Ogwen Valley.

Lugnaquilla is about 925m (3,035ft) high and its base is located close to Glenmalure, about 105km (65 miles) south of Dublin.

The RAF admitted it was unusual for its personnel to get involved in an Irish mountain rescue operation.

Yes thank you very much RAF but they are citizens of the republic of ireland not the u.k. I am happy they found the climbers but why do we have to rely on the u.k for these things? Surely in 2009 we should have our own mountain rescue specialist teams. I mean i know during times of major disaster, earthquakes, tsunami's etc countries send rescue teams to help other countries but this was 2 hikers lost on a mountain near our capital. I am the only one uncomforable with this? I don't mind interoperability in the irish sea but on our soil, over our airspace?

“It is very unusual for UK assets to deploy in this way, especially a civilian team, but when lives are at risk everyone with the expertise who can help wants to help,” said a spokesman for the RAF Rescue Centre at Kinloss in Scotland.'

Yes its also very unusual and presumptious of the RAF to assume we needed the help or that you had a right to deploy over irish territory. This has now set a prescendent as it means the RAF have operated sending a 'military specialist' team over our territory with little or no reaction from the irish public. In fact most of the comments here are thanking the RAF?? So in the future the RAF can operate over our airspace and what we do nothing? They are obviously testing us to see our reactions. In the end of the day this is a seperate country from the u.k although over the last few years i notice how the british media and elements of it has increasingly included the republic of ireland as part of their territory in weather broadcasts, commericals, business enterprises, this and how our politicians seem to always mimic parlimentary decisions in the u.k.

Seems like they didn't need to fight a war to take us over after all.

It wasn't me!

I sincerely doubt the assistance was unwelcome. Only a complete plank would refuse help when two lives are at stake. In those conditions, the more manpower on the ground, the better the survival chances of the two climbers. If we as a nation still have a chip on our shoulder that prevents us accepting the intervention and assistance of a superbly trained unit to save the lives of our citizens, then we've got a massive problem and need to grow up and move on and operate alongside our international counterparts.

It comes down to what's more important: some arrogant assumption that we have plenty of manpower and shouldn't accept international assistance, especially from the British, or the lives of the two men. I for one am glad the RAF were happy to help, as I'm sure are those two men and their families and friends. We need to be able to work together, and this operation is a wonderful example of mature cooperation.

So in the future the RAF can operate over our airspace and what we do nothing? They are obviously testing us to see our reactions. In the end of the day this is a seperate country from the u.k although over the last few years i notice how the british media and elements of it has increasingly included the republic of ireland as part of their territory in weather broadcasts, commericals, business enterprises, this and how our politicians seem to always mimic parlimentary decisions in the u.k.

Seems like they didn't need to fight a war to take us over after all.

You have got to be feckin' joking, right? Yeah, I really think the British are thinking of reviving their colonial past, starting here. Good man. We're two nations with the fact that we're islands in common, just off the west coast of Europe; we share a lot of common attributes and are clearly the same market to commercial interests, as well as sharing weather patterns. Any similarities in our parliamentary decisions are a product of the fact that our circumstances are largely the same in nature if not in scale and our tendency to elect weak governments who don't make their own decisions well. Seriously, this national chip on our shoulders is ridiculous at this point. Will we have Gordon Brown making snide comments about Hitler in talks with Germany next?

trentf

Yes im glad the two men were saved too. Im not complaining about that. Im saying in 2009 we should have all the assets we need to carry out this operation on our own without the need for a team to be flown from the u.k.

It wasn't at some far flung point between ireland and the u.k, it was near our capital on our territory. Why we need an RAF military specialist team flown from wales is beyond me and more worryingly nobody sees a problem with it.


If a french military specialist team fly over london to help rescue 2 men there would be uproar in the u.k, here we thank them instead of asking why we didn't have the resources to do it ourselves. What happens if more then 2 men go missing in the future this has now set a prescendent as i have pointed out because it would mean we would need more 'outside' resources to help. Don't understand the logic behind it at all and suspect there are more sinister reasons behind it, i.e more presence of the RAF over our airspace.

Interoperability is fine with the u.k in times of major disaster or on neutral grounds between 2 countries or when the assets are required i.e not when 2 men are missing.

It wasn't me!

trentf wrote: »

Yes im glad the two men were saved too. Im not complaining about that. Im saying in 2009 we should have all the assets we need to carry out this operation on our own without the need for a team to be flown from the u.k.

It wasn't at some far flung point between ireland and the u.k, it was near our capital on our territory. Why we need an RAF military specialist team flown from wales is beyond me and more worryingly nobody sees the problem with it.


If a french military specialist team fly over london to help rescue 2 men there would be uproar in the u.k, here we thank them instead of asking why we didn't have the resources to do it ourselves. What happens if more then 2 men go missing in the future this has now set a prescendent as i have pointed out because it would mean we would need more 'outside' resources to help. Don't understand the logic behind it at all.

We don't invest in our defence forces/armed forces/rescue personnel to the extent that Britain does, unfortunately, and we don't have the money allocated to do so. It is of course a problem, but we currently don't have a government that cares enough to invest in such areas and is happy to rely on outside help.

trentf

It wasn't me! wrote: »

We don't invest in our defence forces/armed forces/rescue personnel to the extent that Britain does, unfortunately, and we don't have the money allocated to do so. It is of course a problem, but we currently don't have a government that cares enough to invest in such areas and is happy to rely on outside help.

I think we do have enough resources, especially since it was near baldonnel. We have 6 arw helicopters, 8 actually, 2 coastgaurd helicopters and 50 arw members plus rescue mountain teams and emergency personnel. We can invest in more and need. I'd gladly fork out taxpayers money to avoid the embarrassment and unwillingness of having the RAF flying over our territory.

trentf

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I sincerely doubt the assistance was unwelcome. Only a complete plank would refuse help when two lives are at stake. In those conditions, the more manpower on the ground, the better the survival chances of the two climbers. If we as a nation still have a chip on our shoulder that prevents us accepting the intervention and assistance of a superbly trained unit to save the lives of our citizens, then we've got a massive problem and need to grow up and move on and operate alongside our international counterparts.

It comes down to what's more important: some arrogant assumption that we have plenty of manpower and shouldn't accept international assistance, especially from the British, or the lives of the two men. I for one am glad the RAF were happy to help, as I'm sure are those two men and their families and friends. We need to be able to work together, and this operation is a wonderful example of mature cooperation.



You have got to be feckin' joking, right? Yeah, I really think the British are thinking of reviving their colonial past, starting here. Good man. We're two nations with the fact that we're islands in common, just off the west coast of Europe; we share a lot of common attributes and are clearly the same market to commercial interests, as well as sharing weather patterns. Any similarities in our parliamentary decisions are a product of the fact that our circumstances are largely the same in nature if not in scale and our tendency to elect weak governments who don't make their own decisions well. Seriously, this national chip on our shoulders is ridiculous at this point. Will we have Gordon Brown making snide comments about Hitler in talks with Germany next?

A chip on the shoulder. Right so you think having a military specialist team flying from a country we have had a history of war with on our territory is ok for the rescue of 2 men? Ok then, call me a nationalist then cause thats what i am and thats what the silent majority of this country is too

Im not saying im not glad that they helped, i say thanks very much appreciate it but we'll do it ourselves in the future. Interoperability is fine i say on neutral ground, or if really needed not for the rescue of 2 men near our capital over our airspace. Im not anti british i admire them.. from a distance of course.

BeardyGit

The RAF Valley Mountain Rescue Team happen to be based out of an RAF base, with a combination of serving & retired RAF members and civilians within their team. The RAF Sea King helicopter is a Search & Rescue helicopter and is used solely for that purpose. It's absolutely normal for this air asset to deploy mountain rescuers (not just RAF) throughout the UK when requested to do so....and in this case, just across the water to Wicklow.

The RAF Valley Mountain Rescue Team and Ogwyn Valley MRT were asked to assist due to the nature of the terrain under snow. The operating conditions are quite unfamiliar to Irish MRT's but are common for those teams operating in Wales during winter.

Likewise, the Irish Coastguard liveried helicopters based in Dublin and Shannon frequently operate rescue missions over UK soil, not just over sea. In this case, an Irish Coastguard helicopter from Waterford flew to British sovereign territory, landed, and returned to Ireland with the Ogwyn Valley MRT onboard. Do you think they've made a song and dance about it?

You can bet they haven't. Nor have the presented a bill. Any of them. Would they do so again in the future? You bet they would, at the drop of a hat I'm sure....and we'd do the same in return.

I've travelled with members of our MRT to Wales for specialist medical training at our own expense so we can operate in the UK if they ever ask us to help....and who's to say when that might be. The last time we did so was to recover the remains of the deceased on a helicopter crash up north...not pleasant. Do you think the locals up there were as ungrateful? No....so, what's your excuse?

For anyone interested, this is not the first time the RAF have assisted us in a search and rescue operation on Lugnaquilla either. Back in the early 60's before we'd bought Alouette's we had the pleasure of their assistance, all paid for by the British taxpayer, to help in recovering the 3 Irish men who fell through a snow cornice at almost the exact same place the two guys were found on Tuesday.....

It's been 47 years or thereabouts, but we were as grateful for their assistance on Tuesday as our predecessors would have been back then. The Irish Coastguard, Air Corps and Gardaí were all delighted to have them here, and why wouldn't they be? To have a crew RISK their safety operating over mountainous terrain to help the rest of us trying to get the job done - That's priceless. Go stick that on your mastercard Trentf..... :rolleyes:

BeardyGit

trentf wrote: »

A chip on the shoulder. Right so you think having a military specialist team flying from a country we have had a history of war with on our territory is ok for the rescue of 2 men? ....blah blah blah

The press described them as a Military Specialist Team. That's not what they are. They're a mountain rescue team who happened to be transported here in the equivalent of our Coastguard helicopters.... What's the issue? Are you just looking for some weak assed reason to whinge? Soon enough the RAF will cease to be responsible for civilian SAROPS, just as was the case here. And that'll be a sad day for everyone who needs rescue....

trentf

Gil_Dub wrote: »

The RAF Valley Mountain Rescue Team happen to be based out of an RAF base, with a combination of serving & retired RAF members and civilians within their team. The RAF Sea King helicopter is a Search & Rescue helicopter and is used solely for that purpose. It's absolutely normal for this air asset to deploy mountain rescuers (not just RAF) throughout the UK when requested to do so....and in this case, just across the water to Wicklow.

The RAF Valley Mountain Rescue Team and Ogwyn Valley MRT were asked to assist due to the nature of the terrain under snow. The operating conditions are quite unfamiliar to Irish MRT's but are common for those teams operating in Wales during winter.

Likewise, the Irish Coastguard liveried helicopters based in Dublin and Shannon frequently operate rescue missions over UK soil, not just over sea. In this case, an Irish Coastguard helicopter from Waterford flew to British sovereign territory, landed, and returned to Ireland with the Ogwyn Valley MRT onboard. Do you think they've made a song and dance about it?

You can bet they haven't. Nor have the presented a bill. Any of them. Would they do so again in the future? You bet they would, at the drop of a hat I'm sure....and we'd do the same in return.

I've travelled with members of our MRT to Wales for specialist medical training at our own expense so we can operate in the UK if they ever ask us to help....and who's to say when that might be. The last time we did so was to recover the remains of the deceased on a helicopter crash up north...not pleasant. Do you think the locals up there were as ungrateful? No....so, what's your excuse?

For anyone interested, this is not the first time the RAF have assisted us in a search and rescue operation on Lugnaquilla either. Back in the early 60's before we'd bought Alouette's we had the pleasure of their assistance, all paid for by the British taxpayer, to help in recovering the 3 Irish men who fell through a snow cornice at almost the exact same place the two guys were found on Tuesday.....

It's been 47 years or thereabouts, but we were as grateful for their assistance on Tuesday as our predecessors would have been back then. The Irish Coastguard, Air Corps and Gardaí were all delighted to have them here, and why wouldn't they be? To have a crew RISK their safety operating over mountainous terrain to help the rest of us trying to get the job done - That's priceless. Go stick that on your mastercard Trentf..... :rolleyes:

Fair enough as long as long as your confirming irish teams operate over the u.k on their territory. Doesn't change the fact that we still need to improve our own operations and put more funding into it though. I doubt the u.k invites irish speicalist teams over for the rescue of 2 men on their territory.

Local-womanizer

This is turning abit walter mitty tbh.The Brits testing our capabilities?:rolleyes:

We Co-operate with the Brits and them with us in many ways,both politically and econmically,is there a problem with that?

If the people involved with the rescue(professinals soliders,pilots and mountain rescue teams) are glad to have that extra support,then why cant you appreaciated it?

Do it ourselves in future?If I was a AC pilot I would take all the help I was offered.It would reduce the time I would have to be out there for and reduce the risk to all those involved.

concussion

trentf wrote: »

I mean they have the equipment so just curious as to why the raf or members of the raf were called into what is essentially soverign terroritory.

trentf wrote: »

Yes its also very unusual and presumptious of the RAF to assume we needed the help or that you had a right to deploy over irish territory.

Do you see a contradiction there trent? They didn't decide to pop over unannounced after watching the 6.1 news - their assistance was requested.

trentf

Local-womanizer wrote: »

This is turning abit walter mitty tbh.The Brits testing our capabilities?:rolleyes:

We Co-operate with the Brits and them with us in many ways,both politically and econmically,is there a problem with that?

If the people involved with the rescue(professinals soliders,pilots and mountain rescue teams) are glad to have that extra support,then why cant you appreaciated it?

Do it ourselves in future?If I was a AC pilot I would take all the help I was offered.It would reduce the time I would have to be out there for and reduce the risk to all those involved.

I agree they should be thankful for all the help they get. But they don't get funding from the government and this must change. Simple solution to a simple problem.

sgt.bilko

Some years ago (pre-good friday), a viable explosive device was located in Derry. It was made safe and the bomb disposal team returned to their base. A politician in Derry decided to ring the BA in Derry to thank them only to be told that his unit weren't involved but to contact another BA unit who may be able to help. In total 4 BA units were contacted and the politician was given the same story, their bomb disposal unit was not involved as they were on a training exercise. Eventually, the bomb disposal unit involved was located and had Irish reg plates on their vehicles.

In relation to Irish Coast Guard Helicopters landing in UK, all you need to do is have a look at youtube.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Would it be right to say, that maybe, the RAF were better equipped? Their air vehicle had better equipment to deal with the situation? Just a thought...

return guide

The two guys were on TV3 this morning, being asked about it by some wooden Plank and a skirt.

All went well, video of choppers, MRt's et.

The guys knew there stuff and it was plain to see that this was not a case of two strollers taking a walk in the snow and not having a clue .

But with the last comment of the Plank mentioning Brokeback Moutain and giggling, the camera cut to one of the guys who looked like he was going to bounce the Plank all around the studio walls.