How do we get rid of the government?

Daroxtar

I my opinion the only way to force an election is to show up en masse in front of leinster house and not leave until we get it. but then we'd have the same people running again and end up with the same parties, just sitting on the opposite side of the floor.
We'd need to get independent candidates to run in opposition to every sitting td with an agreement to form a coalition of independents.
It might cause problems as to who would become Taoiseach or who would fill the ministerial posts so to break the stranglehold of party politics you'd need to form a new type of party....ironic eh?
Maybe parachute candidates into constituencies of current ministers with mandates of replacing them.
Most importantly, we need candidates under 45 years of age right across the board and younger in most cases to appeal to the younger voters because its the youth of the country that dont bother to vote so by getting them mobilised you completely change the script.
OUT WITH THE OLD AND GREEDY - IN WITH THE YOUNG AND HUNGRY.
People might say that you need experience to do this job right. Tell that to Bill gates or any of the young businessmen who who founded hugely successful companies out of nothing.
Its a hugely flawed idea and not really thought through but i've thrown it out there to be worked on
So, has anyone else got any ideas (and is attempted governmental overthrow a treasonous act)?

gnxx

Unfortunately, members of the Dail are so infrequently in Leinster House they probably wouldn't notice the protests.

I'm sure that you remember the protests against the war in Iraq. These protests were ignored and the Americans used Shannon like some sort of outpost with full government support.

Interesting idea though. I'm not an expert in the world of politics, but has a "virgin" political party ever gained power in the first election?

Who would you consider as a leader? It would need somebody already in the public eye?

Scofflaw

Daroxtar wrote: »

People might say that you need experience to do this job right. Tell that to Bill gates or any of the young businessmen who who founded hugely successful companies out of nothing.

A minor point there, which is that you don't really get to start small and work up with government...

It's an interesting idea, but you'll find that the majority of voters believe that [FAVOURED PARTY] will solve [CURRENT PROBLEM] given enough [TIME/MONEY/COOPERATION delete as appropriate].

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

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Daroxtar

Scofflaw wrote: »

A minor point there, which is that you don't really get to start small and work up with government..

as i said , i haven't really thought this through properly and its a flawed suggestion but if you could get a coalition of 30 or so independents elected then you would definately hold the keys to power and could demand major changes to the whole political system.
i completely agree with you that the majority of voters will vote with the existing parties but i think thats because the majority of voters are older people and as you get older you want more familiarity to keep your comfort levels up. Young people want change but dont see how electing wealthy middle aged men will give them this so they just dont vote. If you could convince them all to vote then the demographic of the majority would change and so would its tendency to keep ploughing the same furrow.

Daroxtar

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

so make a constitutional change which prohibits anyone from running for a third term of office. that way you get a limited time to make as big an impact as possible and you dont get the chance to sit on your laurels because when its over you have to go and get a real job, a challenge if you've been shown up as useless and greedy. also, no Dail pensions until you hit 65 so you cant just serve your term and retire at 50 with a guaranteed paycheck.

Zynks

Can we switch to a presidentialist system? I want to vote directly for the head of state.

Daroxtar

Zynks wrote: »

Can we switch to a presidentialist system? I want to vote directly for the head of state.

Thats kind of what i was getting at by suggesting the parachute candidates to oppose the ministers. you'd be voting for someone for a specific job. The presedential system would probably be a good idea, but we'd have to have a referendum to get it first.

conlonbmw

I agree with this thread.

We have to remove the government now.

We need to start acting like the French.

GeeNorm

You will need a party system as the one thing people like less than political parties are independents (from other constituencies obviously) along the lines of Jackie Helay Rae with a purely local perspective.

"Independent TD Jackie Healy-Rae, who supported the farmers, claimed at a meeting in Tralee to have in his hand an account of a baby being snatched by an eagle 100 years ago in Killarney."

That's just to give you an idea of why I (and many others) would not support independents unless you can keep mentlers like that under control.

Solution = Take over the PDs and rebrand as the IDs

Run_to_da_hills

conlonbmw wrote: »

We need to start acting like the French.

Eating frogs legs and snails, no way. :eek:

Het-Field

Unfortunatly, unlike The Lisbon Treaty (which I vigerously campaigned in favour of), we gave the "right" answer in May 2007. The right answer which wont be second guessed !

I am also of the belief that a General Election now, would not be in the country's interest. It would distract from real business, and three weeks is too long a time to have eyes off the prize. Cross party solution must be articulated and accepted. The longer FF keep doing it their way, the deeper a hole we will drag ourselves into.

Daroxtar

GeeNorm wrote: »

You will need a party system as the one thing people like less than political parties are independents (from other constituencies obviously) along the lines of Jackie Helay Rae with a purely local perspective.

"Independent TD Jackie Healy-Rae, who supported the farmers, claimed at a meeting in Tralee to have in his hand an account of a baby being snatched by an eagle 100 years ago in Killarney."

That's just to give you an idea of why I (and many others) would not support independents unless you can keep mentlers like that under control.

Solution = Take over the PDs and rebrand as the IDs

I dont think that re branding a shower of upper middle class holier than thou rejects would do much to entice voters.
You're right about jackie. He's a cartoon politician. was it him who wanted to know what to feed the gondolas? Pity the eagle didn't snatch him.
However you also get independents like Tony gregory to balance that out.

So, can we form a completely new party? Whats required? I still think that mobilising the youth and particularly the studen vote is the key to the future because they ARE the future. What would happen if every student in every college was registered to vote in the constituency of that college and they all voted for a new alternative candidate? even smaller colleges would have approx 5000 votes and that amount of first choice votes would cause havoc among the established parties.

landser

Daroxtar wrote: »

Its a hugely flawed idea and not really thought through

this is about the only point i agree with in your post

you want 166 individuals to make up the next Dail. well that will work...

THe problem that Irish Govt's have been plagued with is the parish pump, whether that be big business or the local school/hospital/road etc. every politician is afraid of alienating its electorate and our Governments rarely see the big picture. Independent or single issue candidates are the worst example of this. all they want is for their patch of locals to be catered for and hang the rest of the State.

Our system is flawed, however. we are over represented to a frightening degree, but no politician will ever vote for redundancy, which is in effect what they would be doing if they reduced the number of TD's. the UK has a population of over 60m and 600 odd MP's. we could easily survive with 100.

I would much prefer to see a German style PR list system, where you vote for individuals and for a party, who then pick their Members of Parliament themselves. THe ex head of UCL was on Dunphy the other week bemoaning that he would love to be in Govt but realised that he would never be elected because he was not an attractive candidate. With a list system, the Govt can pick academics etc into Govt. this does away with the parish pump and, presumablye would cut down on the number of Consultants required by Cabinet to advise them because they dont have a clue themselves.

You get the Govt you deserve.

OhNoYouDidn't

Zynks wrote: »

Can we switch to a presidentialist system? I want to vote directly for the head of state.

You already do.

I presume you mean head of Government?

Daroxtar

landser wrote: »

this is about the only point i agree with in your post

you want 166 individuals to make up the next Dail. well that will work...

THe problem that Irish Govt's have been plagued with is the parish pump, whether that be big business or the local school/hospital/road etc. every politician is afraid of alienating its electorate and our Governments rarely see the big picture. Independent or single issue candidates are the worst example of this. all they want is for their patch of locals to be catered for and hang the rest of the State.

Our system is flawed, however. we are over represented to a frightening degree, but no politician will ever vote for redundancy, which is in effect what they would be doing if they reduced the number of TD's. the UK has a population of over 60m and 600 odd MP's. we could easily survive with 100.

I would much prefer to see a German style PR list system, where you vote for individuals and for a party, who then pick their Members of Parliament themselves. THe ex head of UCL was on Dunphy the other week bemoaning that he would love to be in Govt but realised that he would never be elected because he was not an attractive candidate. With a list system, the Govt can pick academics etc into Govt. this does away with the parish pump and, presumablye would cut down on the number of Consultants required by Cabinet to advise them because they dont have a clue themselves.

You get the Govt you deserve.

I dont want 166 independents and you wouldnt get them but i cant see any of the current parties as a viable alternative so a coalition of independents with a common goal and mandate could form a new type of party that wouldnt be allowed to get complacent as the other members would be able to keep them in check. I know that the greens are a loosely assembled group along similar lines but they have done SFA other than increase taxes without offering solutions because there arent enough of them so they just do what FF tells them

serfboard

To find out what happens to otherwise principled politicians within a party system in a modern parliamentary democracy, read Martin Bell's book on his time as an MP. He makes the point about what the party system does to individuals and how it changes them from having many ideals and principles to having very few.

In this country however, many independents are simply members of political parties (mostly FF) who failed to get selected at their constituency convention. Thus they have their supporters ready to launch an "independent" campaign when the time comes around.

So calling for more independents is all well and good - just make sure that they are not more of the same.

Off-topic, but in relation to younger people voting, whatever the reasons are that young people don't vote the fact is that they don't. If you break down voters by age, the older you are, the more likely you are to vote. This was evidenced most cynically and obviously by the worst Minister for Finance this country has ever had, Charlie McCreevy, in giving medical cards to people who didn't need them. Mary Harney was quite right to try and put limits on it. The reason the government backed down (producing another "independent" FFer Joe Behan), was again for the reasons that the elderly are more likely to vote (and have time on their hands to protest). For the same reason, they will introduce college fees, because younger people don't vote.

landser

Daroxtar wrote: »

I dont want 166 independents and you wouldnt get them but i cant see any of the current parties as a viable alternative so a coalition of independents with a common goal and mandate could form a new type of party that wouldnt be allowed to get complacent as the other members would be able to keep them in check. I know that the greens are a loosely assembled group along similar lines but they have done SFA other than increase taxes without offering solutions because there arent enough of them so they just do what FF tells them

so you want the coalition of independents to get together and work out a common strategy, stand for election on this and form em, er, a new party....

anyone can start a new political party.. Libertas, for example.

The Greens are a political party, but many of their members dont want to belong to a party that would have them as members (to paraphrase Groucho Marx) and feel uneast withe the notion of a party whip etc.

you feel that the other members of this coalition/party could keep the others "in check"... what if they just split and form a new coalition/party. THis how the PD's, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, The Workers Party etc were all formed, breakaway movements.

there is a reason why we have party dominated politics: its the only way democracy can work over any period of time.

In all this, you have suggested precious little by way of solutions yourself. Any ideas of how to handle the situation without raising taxes, imposing levies. I'm not saying that the current Govt policies are right, but you should be able to add something other than, they're all useless!!

Your idea of a party of young people and for young people is interesting... what happens when you get older? Are you planning a Logan's Run type society??:)

Zynks

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You already do.

I presume you mean head of Government?

Ah, of course, you are referring to our version of the queen of England.... nah, I mean the one who runs the show.

Hagar

I think Biffo would love to loose an election tomorrow, he could just sit on the opposition benches and snipe at Enda for hours on end without a worry in the world.

Forums

Hagar wrote: »

I think Biffo would love to loose an election tomorrow, he could just sit on the opposition benches and snipe at Enda for hours on end without a worry in the world.

This Biffo name calling is ls similar to something you would hear in the school yard.
The whole world is in turmoil. Obama is loved over here but on tv stations like msnbc he is not doing the business. we will be in bad shape until the USA and China does something so the world economy gets better. Rhetoric(Change, yes we can)is one thing but getting us out of this mess is going to take longer and is more serious than anything that was expierencd before. Who ever is in will have to face a lot hard choices as do we and we will have to take alot of hits.

Hagar

Nice first post. Who are you normally?

I, like many others, refer to our beloved Taoiseach as Biffo because he is a Biffo. Simple really.

Saabdub

It's notable that for some time the only solutions to problems have been coming from the opposition parties. The Government say they have no intention of: guaranteeing deposits and loans, recapitalising banks, nationalising banks, cutting public service pay, etc. Then are forced at the eleventh hour to climb down and do exactly what the opposition suggested weeks earlier. This suggests that the government no longer has the ability to plan and make decisions, but is being forced into taking action by external events i.e. threats by bankers and bond dealers. A similar paralysis affected the John Major Government in its last months. A spell on the back-benches would do the Government a lot of good. I remember that when Fianna Fail came back into Government in 1987 they were a lot more decisive (remember Mack the Knife) than they had been 1982.

Saabdub

nhughes100

The events of the past 6 months have made me think that maybe we should introduce a constitutional change that in the event of a Taoiseach resigning/government collapse then there should be a general election called.

I also think that ministers should be directly elected as the relevant minister and not as a normal TD. In my opinion it would be quite impossible to maintain your job effectively as a local TD as well as be a Minister of any portfolio. Could be interesting in that we would have different party representatives in government. Unfortunately party politics could block a minister not in their party but the US operates with a president of one party and the house/senate often controlled by the other.

Daroxtar

landser wrote: »

so you want the coalition of independents to get together and work out a common strategy, stand for election on this and form em, er, a new party....

anyone can start a new political party.. Libertas, for example.

The Greens are a political party, but many of their members dont want to belong to a party that would have them as members (to paraphrase Groucho Marx) and feel uneast withe the notion of a party whip etc.

you feel that the other members of this coalition/party could keep the others "in check"... what if they just split and form a new coalition/party. THis how the PD's, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, The Workers Party etc were all formed, breakaway movements.

there is a reason why we have party dominated politics: its the only way democracy can work over any period of time.

In all this, you have suggested precious little by way of solutions yourself. Any ideas of how to handle the situation without raising taxes, imposing levies. I'm not saying that the current Govt policies are right, but you should be able to add something other than, they're all useless!!

Your idea of a party of young people and for young people is interesting... what happens when you get older? Are you planning a Logan's Run type society??:)

I havent a clue how to solve the problems we have - I'm looking for ideas. Thats why i started the thread. I'm trying to ask questions rather than answer them.
Libertas were formed by a multi millionaire businessman backed by elements within the us military with an agenda of ensuring that the EUs development was stifled and coerced to agree with pro neo con thinking so by that model not everyone can start a new party.
As for the youth being involved, - what i'm suggesting is that we need to get young people with fresh ideas on board rather than having sterile old businessmen and high end professionals, all with vested interests running everything as they do now. and as i said earlier, if you had to give up your govt job after 2 terms with no pension until 65 then you'd try harder to create an enviornment with sustainable long term employment. How many current TDs got their jobs years ago through Daddy and are under no threat of financial hardship because they have a nice fat pension coming?
Biffo, Kenny, the linehans, the o Malleys, DeValeras, Cosgraves, Andrews- the list goes on and on. Its the same families who've been mismanaging the country for 3 generations. We need new blood.

Boggle

I personally think you should elect a leader(who appoints his own staff) to run and represent the country and also a local representative to run and represent each local area. Obviously checks and balances would have to be introduced, including local processes to bring the system closer to the people, but I won't attempt to work out the details on the back of an envelope....

...Its not like I'm in Fine Fail or anything!!

Forums

Hagar wrote: »

Nice first post. Who are you normally?

I, like many others, refer to our beloved Taoiseach as Biffo because he is a Biffo. Simple really.

who am I ?
The reason I registered is this name calling reminds me of bullys in school thats all. Brian Cowen is well capable of looking after himself.

ejmaztec

Forums wrote: »

who am I ?
The reason I registered is this name calling reminds me of bullys in school thats all. Brian Cowen is well capable of looking after himself.

Pity he can't look after the rest of us as well.

Forums

ejmaztec wrote: »

Pity he can't look after the rest of us as well.

This I agree with:D

landser

Daroxtar wrote: »

As for the youth being involved, - what i'm suggesting is that we need to get young people with fresh ideas on board rather than having sterile old businessmen and high end professionals, all with vested interests running everything as they do now. and as i said earlier,

We need new blood.

your comments are ageist and pretty pureile. you assume that if you are young (although i am not sure what you mean by young and what is not: >30, >40, >10) you will not be corrupt etc.

you then complain that there are dynasties of families running the country. While it is the case that there are a number of such in the Dail, you forget that 1. they were elected and 2 invariable each of the members mentioned were young when elected Kenny, Cowen, Coveney etc were all in their 20's when elected, which is young (unless you're 8, in which case it's ancient)

we might need new blood, we might need a new government, we might need a whole new system but we dont need a change because you dont like the age profile of the current Oireachtas

whether you like it or not, the people of the state voted for the current Dail... the people may well be idiots but as i saaid earlier, you get the Govt you deserve

anyone for Fascism????;)

Daroxtar

landser wrote: »

your comments are ageist and pretty pureile. you assume that if you are young (although i am not sure what you mean by young and what is not: >30, >40, >10) you will not be corrupt etc.

you then complain that there are dynasties of families running the country. While it is the case that there are a number of such in the Dail, you forget that 1. they were elected and 2 invariable each of the members mentioned were young when elected Kenny, Cowen, Coveney etc were all in their 20's when elected, which is young (unless you're 8, in which case it's ancient)

we might need new blood, we might need a new government, we might need a whole new system but we dont need a change because you dont like the age profile of the current Oireachtas

whether you like it or not, the people of the state voted for the current Dail... the people may well be idiots but as i saaid earlier, you get the Govt you deserve

anyone for Fascism????;)

Most of the afforementioned were initially elected into the posts that their late fathers/ uncles / whoever left behind by their constituents out of sympathy. Its like the bloody X factor,"Votes for dead dad". I'd also bet that when they did get voted in they worked harder and fairer than now because they were raw and lacked the complecency they have now hence the suggestion that you get 2 terms and no more.
How is it ageist or pureile to look to the people who will be left to pay the bills for the next 50 years for solutions? I'm not suggesting for a minute that younger people are less likely to become more corrupt. What i'm saying is we need to get under 35s to show a far greater interest in their own long term futures and involving them as opposed to treating them with disdain is the way to do it.
What do people want in their public representatives? Honesty, Hard work, and a sense that they are in touch with the mindset of the public. They like to see vigour and exuberance and hunger and desire and these are all traits assosciated with youth. Thats why Kennedy beat nixon and obama beat macain. Its why blair led labour to power.
Yet you believe that wanting these things is a call for fascism? Its a call for change.