Nimrod, the ultimate NWO conspiracy.

mysterious

Barack Obama 2009-2012 Illuminati NWO End Times Conspiracy Exposed (1/7)

1.2012NewWorld type this also for the full videos.
This is the title. Of the youtube link. I'm researching alot into the history. Of the beginning of the "powers of be". The foundation the true rebel "god"

2.http://www.metacafe.com/watch/816473/nimrod_rising_do_you_remember_when_america_changed_forever/
Here is a metcafe link. Also worth a watch.of

3. http://www.truveo.com/NWO-Rise-of-Babylon-Morning-Star-Venus-Alignment/id/669064539
Another video. I'm a bit skeptical about the galatic alignements. I beleive alot of the astrology and symbolism, is a way for us the masses to get all distracted too. You decide.
4. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/801618/are_you_ready_for_nimrod_rising/



The interesting thing, there is not much youtube links to nimrod. ! ! !
Alot are deleted;) Here are some links on NWO in relation Nimrod.
A bit about Nimrod http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nimrod.html

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/New_World_Order.htm
http://www.illuminati-news.com/articles2/00221.html http://www.quicksilver899.com/Euphrasia/Euphrasia.html
http://www.hlinc-zionsake.org/Babylon/02-Nimrod-sun_god.html


The interesting thing to me.
Nimrod, was the first king in pre geneisis. The ruler of Iraq(babylon) first true empire. The country US government are now controlling funnily enough. It's not just coincidence. It's all connected with the NWO and the order of events that the past has affected turn of event's till today. The ancestors of Nimrod, would then be actually in reality fufilling the purpose.


Is Iraq the grounds they want to start the NWO. The beginning of all the first empire sumeria. The 33 degree masons are the ones that have all the knowledge to the current plan.

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=41100.0
This is interesting in context to the lisbon treaty our country in relation to the NWO... if you want to have a peek.


I personally believe, Nimrod, is a creation or interference by the annukai. (anti christ) rebel against the creator and the divine. The Annuakai are using Nimrod and the NWO to further enslave humanity, the tool basically. There is plenty of evidece to suggest E.T interference since before the sumuerians and egyptian times. With new advances in technology, sophiscated maths, physics. The building of the pyramids, which was built on this knowledge and nobody knows where this alien knowledge comes from. No ones knows why they are so many pryamids built all over the planet and how they were built. How we evolved so fast in a space of a few thousands years. How the sumerians knew of the 12 planets including the Sun and the moon. Etc etc. etc.... I could go on. But my point is. It just seems that the beginning of this civlisation is the result and purpose of the NWO. Which the annukai want. Why they want it, we do not fully know.

The true creater god, us and the higher power does not manipulate or control humanity. We were given free will. Or so we think. God created the dust and life moulds from it. The evil or manipulators, are other interdimensional beings manipulating humanity through this NWO. to Enslave humanity. I DONT believe the annukai created us whatsoever. They want to control us. Well this is just my opinion on summeria.

Would love to hear what you all think.:)
EDIT: History of Sumeria/Babylon present day Iraq.
http://www.geocities.com/iraqinfo/index.html?page=/iraqinfo/sum/hist/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t94879-350.html.

There is very little information about sumeria and the ancient Annukai on the net thats actually informative. Watch the space.!

espinolman

This is a brilliant op you have done mysterious . Absolutely brilliant . They have gone to great lengths to suppress information regarding this.

humanji

espinolman wrote: »

This is a brilliant op you have done mysterious . Absolutely brilliant . They have gone to great lengths to suppress information regarding this.

They didn't do that good a job. The first post is full of links. They just don't make world orders like they used to.

mysterious

humanji wrote: »

They didn't do that good a job. The first post is full of links. They just don't make world orders like they used to.

Do you realise, that the links ive posted, are only a skim of what knowledge is out there. You will find little to nothing on the Annukai and the enki on the net. it's actually pre school information....
People like myself have posted much on the net, later to find out that its taken off or blocked
The powers of be will allow the general conspiracy theories to be on the main board, to keep the low profile of the truthers, busy and happy.

P.s i took you off mi ignore list.:D

I know alot. There is people out their that no far more. It's 2,000 years of repressed knowledge. You do the maths.

bonkey

I'm with humanji on this one...

We're supposed to believe that information has been suppressed over a period of 2000 years, but that whoever is able to do that isn't able to stop an intrepid investigoogler, or indeed to silence them properly when they do find something...

I dunno....if I had the power to suppress information over millenia and across entire civilisations, I'd make sure to control all new media forms properly.

Its a point that's been made often in terms of other conspiracies, but the proof that ther isn't this great suppression that you claim, is the fact that you've been able to make the claim in the first place...and repeatedly, at that, if one is to believe you.

mysterious

bonkey wrote: »

I'm with humanji on this one...

We're supposed to believe that information has been suppressed over a period of 2000 years, but that whoever is able to do that isn't able to stop an intrepid investigoogler, or indeed to silence them properly when they do find something...

I dunno....if I had the power to suppress information over millenia and across entire civilisations, I'd make sure to control all new media forms properly.

Its a point that's been made often in terms of other conspiracies, but the proof that ther isn't this great suppression that you claim, is the fact that you've been able to make the claim in the first place...and repeatedly, at that, if one is to believe you.

I agree with you completely.

But human;s are imperfect. And any secret society cannot and will never be able to disclose all information. Secret's impossible to be maintained over 2,000 years. the societies, all have the same aim. Power.

You forget one thing, weakness. There is far more of us, than there are of them.

One simpleton, finds all info. Get's shot.
Next simpleton finds all info gets shot
Next one and so on.

The powers of be know they can't hold it all. So they allow the underage info and trivial details on the net. to keep the truthers distracted.

I'm perfect witness to this. Since I've been blocked on many conspiracy in relation to the nerve pointing question's and theories i've put myself into.

You have to look at the bigger picture. There is far more important agendas that the masses do not know about. And rightly so, most simpletons are not able to contain such knowledge. For example. Two years ago anyone who said NWO was completely laughed at. Now in the present people are willing to listen more.

Another example. Nasa know alot more than they lead on the mass to beleive. Because to much info to us simple people just doesnt register with our brains

Conclusion. No one being on this planet has the perfect capability of disclosing all information about anything. Afterall we all live on the same planet and no being is greater than other in finding knowledge.

humanji

But you do see where the debunkers are coming from, though, don't you? Your claims that there's these great secrets being kept from us is no evidence that you're telling the truth.

You say you have witnessed to this. But have you really? I mean, if you're are a believer, then you can't see things with an unbiased view. For example, if you request some info from some agency and are refused, you could see it as the powers that be blocking your investigations for some reason, when there could be any number of non-sinister reasons.

Personally, I've seen many, many examples of supposed truthers who, despite 100% real and accurate evidence to the contrary, believe the most non-sensical things. Conversely, I'm sure you youerself could say the same about evidence for what you believe and debunkers who don't believe it. The point is, if you believe something, no matter how open a mind you have or say you have, you'll always interpret events to what you want to see. As you say, humans are imperfect.

Also, humans being imperfect is also a pretty good reason why a centruies old secret organisation is unlikely to exist. Humans are greedy, imperfect animals. Even the most fanatical of cults tear themselves apart by individuals looking after their own interests. It's human nature and it simply can't be denied.

thecommander

Its one things believing that a select few are trying to run the world and enslave us, but its a completely different kettle of fish when you believe in inter-dimensional beings and predictions of time.

mysterious

humanji wrote: »

But you do see where the debunkers are coming from, though, don't you? Your claims that there's these great secrets being kept from us is no evidence that you're telling the truth.

Well your a skeptic and doesnt research yourself. So no evidence will pop in front of you:):rolleyes:

You say you have witnessed to this. But have you really? I mean, if you're are a believer, then you can't see things with an unbiased view.

Well It's not about what I believe. I've clearly shown facts, document's, links history, dates and evidence to my case.

Beliefs is another thing. I research. It's about a human being using all his senses to the full, and knows timing of event's and ask's himself the questions that are not answered. This is gaining knowledge about thing's.
Second point is having awareness to understand the environment around and understand yourself. This is called learning.
Thirdly is one who Knows how to discern and disect what is displayed out in front of them . This isn't about my beliefs. This is called fact checking. This is called realising what holds true and what is reality.

This is what my objectives are..

It has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I did state my personal beliefs on the end of my post clearly stated as my belief's. Argue that as you wish. Thats up to you to disect. There is plenty of evidence in that post from history proving where I'm at least coming from. Stop defferng your ignorance to the facts I've posted.

For example, if you request some info from some agency and are refused, you could see it as the powers that be blocking your investigations for some reason, when there could be any number of non-sinister reasons.

Yes when it happens not once, but a few dozen times, when your aware of the nature of what your putting yourself into. Hence I projected something, I got the intial reaction i.e been blocked. I do it a second time and a third time. The same reaction appears again. Does this simple analogy hold any logic here. It's knowing what your up against and knowing the reactions leads you to think that your up against something.

I'm well aware of the things I'm putting myself into. When the opportunity arises I come up against friction and denial. Timing here proves the agenda. I could explain more in detail via pm

Personally, I've seen many, many examples of supposed truthers who, despite 100% real and accurate evidence to the contrary, believe the most non-sensical things.

Just because you say it or percieve it to be non sensical doesnt hold true whatsoever, infact it proves how closed your own mind is.

Conversely, I'm sure you yourself could say the same about evidence for what you believe and debunkers who don't believe it.

I'm all up for people challenging my beliefs.

The point is, if you believe something, no matter how open a mind you have or say you have, you'll always interpret events to what you want to see. As you say, humans are imperfect.

Well the beauty of imperfection, is to understand it. That's my only goal. I'm not one to waste my time, going into nitpicking as your doing. There is no logic to what your actually trying to really say.

Also, humans being imperfect is also a pretty good reason why a centruies old secret organisation is unlikely to exist.

That is utter bull****. You obviously don't research. :rolleyes: Just because human's are imperfect does not stop for one second to think that any such person wants to hold a secret organisation. God your arguments are laughable.

Humans are greedy, imperfect animals.

Well done. You finally said something that's worth a point. Greed is one thing that pushes certain people to do very very bad things. Most obvious when you look at how power runs right now.

Even the most fanatical of cults tear themselves apart by individuals looking after their own interests. It's human nature and it simply can't be denied.

There is plenty of evidence with that among the secret societies today.

nyarlothothep

humanji wrote: »

But you do see where the debunkers are coming from, though, don't you? Your claims that there's these great secrets being kept from us is no evidence that you're telling the truth.

You say you have witnessed to this. But have you really? I mean, if you're are a believer, then you can't see things with an unbiased view. For example, if you request some info from some agency and are refused, you could see it as the powers that be blocking your investigations for some reason, when there could be any number of non-sinister reasons.

Personally, I've seen many, many examples of supposed truthers who, despite 100% real and accurate evidence to the contrary, believe the most non-sensical things. Conversely, I'm sure you youerself could say the same about evidence for what you believe and debunkers who don't believe it. The point is, if you believe something, no matter how open a mind you have or say you have, you'll always interpret events to what you want to see. As you say, humans are imperfect.

Also, humans being imperfect is also a pretty good reason why a centruies old secret organisation is unlikely to exist. Humans are greedy, imperfect animals. Even the most fanatical of cults tear themselves apart by individuals looking after their own interests. It's human nature and it simply can't be denied.

skull and bones and freemasons have been going for a while now.

thecommander

nyarlothothep wrote: »

skull and bones and freemasons have been going for a while now.

So have scouts, and the catholic church, and the royal college of surgeons, and the magic circle, and the ica. Doesn't prove anything though.

mysterious

thecommander wrote: »

Its one things believing that a select few are trying to run the world and enslave us, but its a completely different kettle of fish when you believe in inter-dimensional beings and predictions of time.

Yes, so shocking! It's a big big universe out there. Knowledge is power. And there is alot of knowledge out there that none of you realise. Why well its there but hidden. That is what I want to find out and expose. If this is branded as a kettle of fish.

Then I'm level headed enough to carry through.

Ancient cultures, have ancient knowledge in areas such as, physics, astrononmy, quantum physics, astrology, occult, and the ancient kabbalah that none of us have any access too.

But the kettle of fish you describe, is that some people know about this. You call it a kettle of fish, cus you have never come across it. That is understandable. This is the very reason none of you are truly aware the extent of the knowledge that is truly hidden.

nyarlothothep

thecommander wrote: »

So have scouts, and the catholic church, and the royal college of surgeons, and the magic circle, and the ica. Doesn't prove anything though.

well, Humanjis point was that its rare or virtually impossible for select organizations to exist over several centuries if not millenia. I don't see these organizations letting up any time soon.

thecommander

mysterious wrote: »

Yes, so shocking! It's a big big universe out there. Knowledge is power. And there is alot of knowledge out there that none of you realise. Why well its there but hidden. That is what I want to find out and expose. If this is branded as a kettle of fish.

Then I'm level headed enough to carry through.

Ancient cultures, have ancient knowledge in areas such as, physics, astrononmy, quantum physics, astrology, occult, and the ancient kabbalah that none of us have any access too.

But the kettle of fish you describe, is that some people know about this. You call it a kettle of fish, cus you have never come across it. That is understandable. This is the very reason none of you are truly aware the extent of the knowledge that is truly hidden.

Off you go, find out and expose the secret societies by typing "Nimrod" and "NWO" into google & youtube.

If none of us have access to this knowledge either, so how can you think it even exists?

mysterious

thecommander wrote: »

So have scouts, and the catholic church, and the royal college of surgeons, and the magic circle, and the ica. Doesn't prove anything though.

I have to stress this point. LAY OFF the ignorance please. I'm mean this clearly. thecommander I can understand you been skeptical. But please stop sitting there like a closed book. If you think there is no proof, go prove yourself right.

People find out such things, to prove their case or arguement.
Have you ever heard of bohemian grove.

This is where, people have cot, on camera secret meetings going on with the skull and bones and masons. All previous president's excluding the bushes and the Clintons have been reported there. It was not meant to be known, but it got leaked.

It's your ignorance to the whats around you is the only problem that's stopping you from waking up to reality

mysterious

thecommander wrote: »

Off you go, find out and expose the secret societies by typing "Nimrod" and "NWO" into google & youtube.

If none of us have access to this knowledge either, so how can you think it even exists?

Well you certainly wont find anything with that attitude. Seriously listen to yourself. Knowledge is there If you get off your behind and go look. it's your responsiblity to look for it. No one else.

Have you bothered to read the above links that I provided?

thecommander

mysterious wrote: »

I have to stress this point. LAY OFF the ignorance please. I'm mean this clearly. thecommander I can understand you been skeptical. But please stop sitting there like a closed book. If you think there is no proof, go prove yourself right.

People find out such things, to prove their case or arguement.
Have you ever heard of bohemian grove.

This is where, people have cot, on camera secret meetings going on with the skull and bones and masons. All previous president's excluding the bushes and the Clintons have been reported there. It was not meant to be known, but it got leaked.

It's your ignorance to the whats around you is the only problem that's stopping you from waking up to reality

And bohemian grove is related directly to antichrist/babylon/pyramids/ETs/alien knowledge how?

You posts are a conspiracy theory cliche.

mysterious

thecommander wrote: »

And bohemian grove is related directly to antichrist/babylon/pyramids/ETs/alien knowledge how?

You posts are a conspiracy theory cliche.

You asked me a question on evidence of secret societies. I answered your question, giving an exact location to where such meeting's were presented.

Now I can clearly see your trolling.
I would prefer to stick to the topic than have to put up with your ignorance towards me.:)

You haven't asked anything on this topic, So my question is this, other than trolling what are you doing here??????

thecommander

mysterious wrote: »

You asked me a question on evidence of secret societies. I answered your question, giving an exact location to where such meeting's were presented.

Now I can clearly see your trolling.
I would prefer to stick to the topic than have to put up with your ignorance towards me.:)

You haven't asked anything on this topic, So my question is this, other than trolling what are you doing here??????

OK, I have nothing to ask if Im honest. I just find it comical that you find documents on Metacafe, Truveo & Geocities that point to this societies when all the organisations that you point to seemingly control media, and are super secretive.

I find it hard to believe that anything can predict the future, same goes for the antichrist etc. That takes faith in a god, which I don't believe in.

Im not trolling, just trying to find out why you are so believing in a thread that both CTer and skeptics don't.

mysterious

thecommander wrote: »

OK, I have nothing to ask if Im honest. I just find it comical that you find documents on Metacafe, Truveo & Geocities that point to this societies when all the organisations that you point to seemingly control media, and are super secretive.

I find it hard to believe that anything can predict the future, same goes for the antichrist etc. That takes faith in a god, which I don't believe in.

Im not trolling, just trying to find out why you are so believing in a thread that both CTer and skeptics don't.

Stop trolling. And stop putting ur pathetic issues on this thread that have no relevance to the topic.

You already said you haven't even looked at the link's and you just laughed at them. So please go and use your freetime dumping ur stuff on something else.

I want to stick to the topic.

that point to this societies when all the organisations that you point to seemingly control media, and are super secretive

I never said media, or super secretive on this thread.

Please be elsewhere.

thecommander

mysterious wrote: »

You already said you haven't even looked at the link's and you just laughed at them.

No I didn't. Facts straight please

mysterious

Can I ask a moderator, for somebody to stop thecommander de railing the thread. Thanks.

humanji

mysterious wrote: »

Well your a skeptic and doesnt research yourself. So no evidence will pop in front of you:):rolleyes:

And even reading your "evidence" I still see that it is worth little research.

mysterious wrote: »

Well It's not about what I believe. I've clearly shown facts, document's, links history, dates and evidence to my case.

You've shown little of substance and warped it to mean what you want it to.

mysterious wrote: »

Beliefs is another thing. I research. It's about a human being using all his senses to the full, and knows timing of event's and ask's himself the questions that are not answered. This is gaining knowledge about thing's.
Second point is having awareness to understand the environment around and understand yourself. This is called learning.
Thirdly is one who Knows how to discern and disect what is displayed out in front of them . This isn't about my beliefs. This is called fact checking. This is called realising what holds true and what is reality.

This is what my objectives are..

It has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. I did state my personal beliefs on the end of my post clearly stated as my belief's. Argue that as you wish. Thats up to you to disect. There is plenty of evidence in that post from history proving where I'm at least coming from. Stop defferng your ignorance to the facts I've posted.

You believe you are right. This is the point I was making. No amount of evidence will ever sway you because you believe in your heart that you are right. That's the difference between the truthers and the debunkers. The truthers will always cling to their ideas, regardless of them being true or false. A debunker questions the ideas, as anyone should. Blind faith is useless to an analytical mind.

And low-key hostility won't add much to your argument.

mysterious wrote: »

Yes when it happens not once, but a few dozen times, when your aware of the nature of what your putting yourself into. Hence I projected something, I got the intial reaction i.e been blocked. I do it a second time and a third time. The same reaction appears again. Does this simple analogy hold any logic here. It's knowing what your up against and knowing the reactions leads you to think that your up against something.

I'm well aware of the things I'm putting myself into. When the opportunity arises I come up against friction and denial. Timing here proves the agenda. I could explain more in detail via pm

If I come up against a locked door, I'll think little of it. If I continue to come up against locked doors I'd be foolish to jump to the conclusion that there's a conspiracy. As I said before, that's not to say there is no conspiracy, just that it's best to analyse all avenues.

mysterious wrote: »

Just because you say it or percieve it to be non sensical doesnt hold true whatsoever, infact it proves how closed your own mind is.

And as I said, just because it makes sense to you doesn't make it true, which proves that you have a closed and blinkered view of the subject. Two sides of the one coin.

mysterious wrote: »

Well the beauty of imperfection, is to understand it. That's my only goal. I'm not one to waste my time, going into nitpicking as your doing. There is no logic to what your actually trying to really say.

You've just contradicted yourself. I'm questioning what you are saying, as you claim is the key to understanding imperfection.

mysterious wrote: »

That is utter bull****. You obviously don't research. :rolleyes: Just because human's are imperfect does not stop for one second to think that any such person wants to hold a secret organisation. God your arguments are laughable.

But it does point out that their imperfections will show through and corrupt themselves. Absolute power, and all that. Just because you can't understand my point is no need to get upset.

You're contempt for me is showing through and not doing you any favours. I'm not a skeptic as you claim. I'm skeptical of unbacked, biased claims with little evidence, as anyone should. Show me 100% incontrovertable proof that you're right and I will 100% believe you. Give me a few internet links and what would you expect me to think? What would you, if I gave you a few links that I claim were evidence of the floating teapot, think? You'd think I was either joking or mad, and you'd be right to.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

well, Humanjis point was that its rare or virtually impossible for select organizations to exist over several centuries if not millenia. I don't see these organizations letting up any time soon.

But none of those organisations are in their original form. They've gone through countless changes and, more importantly, are not secret. To have an organisation span at least 2000 years and not be known to anyone but a few internet users isa bit of a stretch, don't you think?

thecommander

mysterious wrote: »

Can I ask a moderator, for somebody to stop thecommander de railing the thread. Thanks.

Use the hazard sign to the left of the comment you are unhappy about. I have done nothing to derail the thread, all I've done is disagree with you, so have others. Report them too.

mysterious

humanji wrote: »

You've shown little of substance and warped it to mean what you want it to.

trolling...

You believe you are right. This is the point I was making. No amount of evidence will ever sway you because you believe in your heart that you are right.

Back on ignore list. I don't need to argue with someone who puts words and affirmations into other's people's mouth and my mouth. I've already explained myself to you about this. It seems you have an agenda.

But it does point out that their imperfections will show through and corrupt themselves. Absolute power, and all that. Just because you can't understand my point is no need to get upset.

Ok.

But none of those organisations are in their original form. They've gone through countless changes and, more importantly, are not secret. To have an organisation span at least 2000 years and not be known to anyone but a few internet users isa bit of a stretch, don't you think?

I never said once they were all so secret. I said certain aspects in relation to knowledge is secret and there is a purpose for that:p See their you go put word's in my mouth.

Kernel

mysterious wrote: »

Do you realise, that the links ive posted, are only a skim of what knowledge is out there. You will find little to nothing on the Annukai and the enki on the net. it's actually pre school information....
People like myself have posted much on the net, later to find out that its taken off or blocked

They're known as the Annunaki, rather than the Annukai. Ancient Sumerian mythology. Zecharia Sitchin wrote about them and brought them to 'conspiracy' light, however, from my understanding, his interpretation of the Sumerian tablets differs from every other scholars, so I'm not a believer in these prophecies. The origins and unusual orbit of the moon are indeed strange, part of Niburu?? I'm not closed to that possibility, nor am I convinced. There was also speculation on the lack/deformation of Earth's crust on the Pacific side of the planet, anyone have more info on this?

mysterious wrote: »

I know alot. There is people out their that no far more. It's 2,000 years of repressed knowledge. You do the maths.

A 2,000 year orbit? Where is the destruction which occurred 1,990 years ago?

nyarlothothep

humanji wrote: »

But none of those organisations are in their original form. They've gone through countless changes and, more importantly, are not secret. To have an organisation span at least 2000 years and not be known to anyone but a few internet users isa bit of a stretch, don't you think?

The Freemasons and skull and bones are most definetly secret. What changes have they undergone?

thecommander

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The Freemasons and skull and bones are most definetly secret. What changes have they undergone?

How do you know about them then? Other than youtube etc.

Kernel

thecommander wrote: »

How do you know about them then? Other than youtube etc.

Because inevitably, it's impossible to keep something 100% secret. There will always be those through the years that talk.

nyarlothothep

and they are self proclaimed secret societies, thats almost their raison d'etre. No one knows what really goes on in them beyond the snippets of info we have.

humanji

mysterious wrote: »

Back on ignore list.

God forbid you should ever need to have an adult conversation. Why do people bother going on a public message board when they can't cope with people asking them anything? It's bizarre.

Or maybe he has an agenda...:rolleyes:

Kernel wrote: »

Because inevitably, it's impossible to keep something 100% secret. There will always be those through the years that talk.

And yet, the OP claims there is such a secret organisation that nobody talks about and has somehow only come to the fore in recent history. For example, what are the chances of a secret society remaining hidden for thousands of years with only a minimum of information about it's existence being released, when organisations like the Masons are relatively new (well 200 years, but that's not much when compared to 2000), can have huge amounts of information found out about it over such a short amount of time? It just seems highly improbable.

nyarlothothep wrote:

The Freemasons and skull and bones are most definetly secret. What changes have they undergone?

Well a simple example is that the Skull and Bones started out as one group and split into three over various internal disputes, which is actually a good example of groups tearing themselves apart (although it's a group run by college students, so a good counter-argument is that boys will be boys. ).