SNAs left in charge of classes

afino

Just wondering what is the situation with SNAs left in sole charge of classes. I read on the Department website that SNAs should not EVER be left in the class without the teacher present. Is that just an 'ideal world' rule that gets broken in practice?

I ask because there is an SNA in my son's class who is left in charge while his teacher is out of the class. From what I can gather from my son this can happen several times a week and I have heard that this happens in other classes in our school too.

I can totally understand that teachers are under pressure and it could be an easy option to use the SNAs to supervise their classes. But is this allowed? Is it fair to the kids or the SNAs who are put in that position? I'm quite concerned and would appreciate some feedback...

byhookorbycrook

why is teacher out of class?If it's lunch break on a wet day, the SNA would be in the class, but there would be teachers circulating on supervision.

byhookorbycrook

sorry that "would " should be a "should", perhaps not in your son's school, in which case I'd be asking why not?

afino

This happens during class time when the kids are doing their school work. The teacher goes off to do whatever (attend a meeting for example) and the SNA is left in sole charge of the class. I'm not knocking SNAs 'cos I know they have a really important part to play for children with special needs but they really aren't supposed to be left supervising classwork or disciplining the children ... or am I totally wrong about that?

What happens in other schools when the teacher has to leave the class for a period of time?

jenzz

Are SNA not trained as teaching assistants ? I know they are treated as part of the teaching staff so theres no reason why they shouldnt be left in charge of a class

byhookorbycrook

Jenzz, the DES says SNAs are not to be asked to supervise classes, though any I know are the most capable people you could meet. This rule is more for their protection and the protection of the child they help, I would think.

In our school, if there is a pressing reason for teacher to leave class, the teacher next door keeps an eye, if it is pre-arranged meeting time, for example ,the principal/infant teachers or sometimes learning support teachers stand in for that time.

dolliemix

OP can I ask why you are so concerned? Has something happened in the classroom while the teacher has left?

cheezyfeet

That's pretty worrying stuff, afino. When my dd was in jr inf, her teacher was also principal. The class were often left in sole charge of the SNA, who was actually teaching them for periods of time, not just supervising. I had no idea this was not allowed.

afino

dolliemix wrote: »

OP can I ask why you are so concerned? Has something happened in the classroom while the teacher has left?

I'm concerned because of reports that the SNA talks to the children in a way that I know their teacher would not like. I can understand that if she is trying to look after the child she is assigned to and also supervise 30 other children it could be very stressful for her and everyone else in the class. I have even raised the issue with the teacher but I'm not sure it will change anything.

I suppose if I knew that SNAs are not left in charge of classes in other schools then I would be in a better position to try to tackle this in our school.

byhookorbycrook

Afino, whether s/he should be in charge is one thing (and DES says never) but speaking to children in an inappropriate way is NEVER acceptable

dolliemix

Teachers have to leave the classroom at times......perhaps a student is sick....whatever the reason it happens.

Of course it depends on what the SNA is saying to the students. In an ideal world it wouldn't happen....in the real world it does. The DES live in the ideal world....teachers and SNAs live in the real world....

How did the teacher react when you told her you were unhappy with it?

byhookorbycrook

I agree Dollie, but if there is a meeting, some kind of cover needs to be sorted, a quick trip to the loo is another thing!

dolliemix

True!

Fries-With-That

afino wrote: »

I ask because there is an SNA in my son's class who is left in charge while his teacher is out of the class. From what I can gather from my son this can happen several times a week and I have heard that this happens in other classes in our school too.QUOTE]



I think that there are several reasons the OP should be concerned about a SNA being left in charge of a class of children.

1) The SNA is not a teaching assistant and are not looked upon as a member of the teaching staff.(This is my experience)

2) The role of the SNA is to help the child with special needs intergrate into the mainstream class.

This role is demanding and requires the SNA to give the child her/his attention and not have it diluted by having to supervise children that they are not responsible for.
If a class teacher is absent for any reason including a toilet break this situation could put additional pressure on the child with special needs and the child would require greater assistance from the SNA.

3) If a situation arose that needed the direct intervention of an adult is it fair that the SNA should be put in a situation where they may have to abandon the child they are assigned to, to intervene.

In an ideal world all schools would have all resources that they and the children they are responsible for need. The situation when it comes to children with special needs is especially daunting when schools and staff are required to adapt to this situation.

I have great respect for SNA's and the difficult work they do in difficult situations, it is important that schools realise that the main role of any SNA is to look after the child they are assigned to and not to provide services to the greater school population.

I am not a SNA nor am I a teacher.

byhookorbycrook

If a class teacher is absent for any reason including a toilet break this situation could put additional pressure on the child with special
needs and the child would require greater assistance from the SNA.



Sorry,Frieswiththat, don't agree with the toilet break bit, parents would be in uproar if children who wanted to go to the loo at 9.40 were told to wait until 11.00. What about a job where you weren't allowed go when you needed to??
Surely if a teacher "has to go" they have to go? The 4 mins involved will not impact on a special needs child so badly. A friend of mine was at the dr recently, after repeated urinary tract infections, he told her she had what he called " teachers bladder" whereby teachers who have to " hold it in" every day for long periods become far more prone to infections.

dolliemix

I agree with by hook-or-by-crook


I think some people on this thread are over reacting. A child with special needs should be able to cope on their own at times! It's important that the other children see this aswell - what children would want to hang out with the kid who has an adult hanging on to them 24-7?

Of course, I understand that there are varying degrees of special needs. But the aim of education is to teach each child to become more independent and confident.

I am a teacher.....I've never had an SNA in my class. But seriously - over protecting children and trying to prevent every eventuality is just as damaging to children than letting them experience things for themselves. It's not the end of the world if children are left with an SNA every now and then.

What is the worst thing could happen?

Fries-With-That

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If a class teacher is absent for any reason including a toilet break this situation could put additional pressure on the child with special
needs and the child would require greater assistance from the SNA.



Sorry,Frieswiththat, don't agree with the toilet break bit, parents would be in uproar if children who wanted to go to the loo at 9.40 were told to wait until 11.00. What about a job where you weren't allowed go when you needed to??
Surely if a teacher "has to go" they have to go? The 4 mins involved will not impact on a special needs child so badly. A friend of mine was at the dr recently, after repeated urinary tract infections, he told her she had what he called " teachers bladder" whereby teachers who have to " hold it in" every day for long periods become far more prone to infections.

I have no idea what school timetables you deal with on a regular basis but in my experience there are not many teachers teaching in Ireland today that might have to "hold their water" for extended periods of time.

The average length of a class period is 40 minutes., hardly an extended period of time.

Fries-With-That

dolliemix wrote: »

I agree with by hook-or-by-crook


I think some people on this thread are over reacting. A child with special needs should be able to cope on their own at times! It's important that the other children see this aswell - what children would want to hang out with the kid who has an adult hanging on to them 24-7?

Of course, I understand that there are varying degrees of special needs. But the aim of education is to teach each child to become more independent and confident.

I am a teacher.....I've never had an SNA in my class. But seriously - over protecting children and trying to prevent every eventuality is just as damaging to children than letting them experience things for themselves. It's not the end of the world if children are left with an SNA every now and then.

What is the worst thing could happen?

Dolliemix, with the greatest of respect I am amazed at this point.

A child with special needs should be able to cope on their own at times

The whole point of a child having a SNA is because they can't cope on their own.

It's important that the other children see this aswell - what children would want to hang out with the kid who has an adult hanging on to them 24-7?

You don't seem to have a grasp of the concept of special needs if the child was capable of mingling with the other children then they just might not need a SNA.

the aim of education is to teach each child to become more independent and confident.
The aim of having a SNA is to help integrate the child into mainstream if the SNA is required to become a classroom assistant, a classroom supervisor or a substitute teacher, something within the system is not working properly.

I am a teacher.....I've never had an SNA in my class. But seriously - over protecting children and trying to prevent every eventuality is just as damaging to children than letting them experience things for themselves. It's not the end of the world if children are left with an SNA every now and then.

You've never had an SNA in your class,so it would appear that you've never had a child with special needs either. Its not about over protecting children( are you aware that some children with special needs are liable to hit other children) its about providing a stable environment for each child regardless of their need, a safe and consistant environment in which to access eductation.

It's not the end of the world if children are left with an SNA every now and then.

The arrogance of the above comment is unbelieveable, more so given the fact it is coming from a teacher.
A teacher is paid the salary they receive because they have attended college and been given a degree, when you take on the role of TEACHER it is your job to teach and supervise your class at all times. If for whatever reason you cannot fulfil this role, be it to have a toilet break or attend a meeting it is hardly professional to state that its not the end of the world if the children are left with the SNA every now and then.

The problem with this if you can't see it already is the SNA is appointed to supervise one child and paid accordingly.

I am a parent of children with special needs and personally I can see situations arise where in an emergency the teacher has to leave the classroom. I don't think the OP was talking about these situations and for the record neither am I.

The problem is that the teaching staff sometimes begin to look upon the SNA as their classroom assistant and not the assistant of the child with special needs. Is this really fair to the other children, to have them taught by a person unqualified for the task. Is it fair to the child with special needs that the person thats supposed to make them feel safe and secure is asked to provide this service to the class as a whole. Is it fair to the SNA to ask them to do a job that the department says they can't do or may not be insured to do.

afino

Fries-With-That wrote: »

I don't think the OP was talking about these situations and for the record neither am I.

The problem is that the teaching staff sometimes begin to look upon the SNA as their classroom assistant and not the assistant of the child with special needs. Is this really fair to the other children, to have them taught by a person unqualified for the task... Is it fair to the SNA to ask them to do a job that the department says they can't do or may not be insured to do.

That pretty much sums up my point. I'm not talking about a teacher dashing out to the loo - when you gotta go, you gotta go! It's more to do with extended absences by the teachers and, as Fries said, the teachers treating the SNAs as classroom assistants and substitute teachers which they are not. From your replies it sounds like this is not how things are in other schools.

To answer an earlier post, when I raised the issue with the teacher I only mentioned the way the SNA spoke to my son and I didn't bring up the issue of whether or not she should have been left in charge in the first place. I wanted to know more before I brought that thorny issue up with the school.

surfjunkie

Fries-With-That wrote: »

I have no idea what school timetables you deal with on a regular basis but in my experience there are not many teachers teaching in Ireland today that might have to "hold their water" for extended periods of time.

The average length of a class period is 40 minutes., hardly an extended period of time.

in second level yes this is true, but no so in primary level. depending on the school- 9.30 until 11.00 is and hour and a half. 11.10 until 12.30 is an hour and 20 minutes, and 1.00 until 3.00 is 2 hours. mostly standing i may add.

as far as im aware an sna should not be left in charge of a class, for insurance purposes mostly. but it does happen occasionally. e.g. sick child, infant has a wetting accident in the toilet, irate parent at the door... ideally a teacher next door should be asked to keep an eye on things but not an easy request to make if you are in a prefab on a wet and windy day.

mamindah

Hi alfino,

I have worked as an sna, but not at present as these jobs are nearly impossisble to get.

Yes, it happens that a teacher may have to step out of the class, but it would only be for a couple of minutes, to ask another teacher something, go to the toilet, look for a book etc.... but the rule is that the classroom door is left open and if it is for longer than 5 minutes or so (if a child is sick or the teacher needs to speak to a parent urgently, the teacher in the next class will pop in and out to check things, with their classroom door left open. This happens in small schools where there may not be another teacher to step in. It's life and it happens, but teachers are very aware of the rules and unhappy when something takes them away from their class.

If you have concerns about the sna you should make a formal complaint. Unnacceptable behaviour towards a child should not be allowed to carry on whether that sna is left alone with the kids or not. In my experience, many sna's are highly qualified, are very professional and love kids... why else would they do a job with no job security and no recognition for the tough work they do?

hope that helped...

mamindah

Just wanted to comment on your last post, fries with that...

I have been in many schools and whether the sna works constantly with the special needs child or acts more as a classroom assistant entirely depends on the special need involved. I have been in a class where one sna was assigned to a number of children with a mixture of mild special education or medical needs. in this case it was in some of the children's interests to be allowed to work independantly and get assitance when they needed it. I have also worked with children one-on-one who have had a profound special ed need, and yes in this case the sna works with that child to maximise their potential and learning or to control behaviour.

There are many different situations, and some iep's that i've seen state (and are agreed with the parent) that the child must complete independant work as well as recieve assistance from the sna.

what is important to remember here is that the teacher is the educational professional and should be supported. if a special needs assistant leaves the child that they are assigned to, to lighten the teachers workload by completing classroom assistant duties, then that leads to a more organised and harmonious classroom and an environment which is more conducive to learning. It also gives the children, including those with special needs in the class, more time with their teacher, which can only be a good thing.

Take it easy on each other... times are tough, resources are limited and teachers and sna's are doing their best.

byhookorbycrook

Fries-With-That wrote: »

I have no idea what school timetables you deal with on a regular basis but in my experience there are not many teachers teaching in Ireland today that might have to "hold their water" for extended periods of time.

The average length of a class period is 40 minutes., hardly an extended period of time.

Our timetable, class start 9.20, break 11.00 (more than 40 mins)
11.15 to 12.45 (more than 40 mins)
1.15- 3.00 (realistically 3.10 by the time all the children leave the room)

No primary schools I know have class periods of 40 mins.

Fries-With-That

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Our timetable, class start 9.20, break 11.00 (more than 40 mins)
11.15 to 12.45 (more than 40 mins)
1.15- 3.00 (realistically 3.10 by the time all the children leave the room)

No primary schools I know have class periods of 40 mins.

I have to acknowledge your knowledge of classroom timetables is far greater than mine.

And I have conceded that the main issue is not about a quick toilet break.

Fries-With-That

mamindah wrote: »

Just wanted to comment on your last post, fries with that...

I have been in many schools and whether the sna works constantly with the special needs child or acts more as a classroom assistant entirely depends on the special need involved. I have been in a class where one sna was assigned to a number of children with a mixture of mild special education or medical needs. in this case it was in some of the children's interests to be allowed to work independantly and get assitance when they needed it. I have also worked with children one-on-one who have had a profound special ed need, and yes in this case the sna works with that child to maximise their potential and learning or to control behaviour.

There are many different situations, and some iep's that i've seen state (and are agreed with the parent) that the child must complete independant work as well as recieve assistance from the sna.

what is important to remember here is that the teacher is the educational professional and should be supported. if a special needs assistant leaves the child that they are assigned to, to lighten the teachers workload by completing classroom assistant duties, then that leads to a more organised and harmonious classroom and an environment which is more conducive to learning. It also gives the children, including those with special needs in the class, more time with their teacher, which can only be a good thing.

Take it easy on each other... times are tough, resources are limited and teachers and sna's are doing their best.

I agree totally with all your comments, every situation has to be dealt with as to whats best for the child with special needs and not as to whats best for the school or the department.

If it arises that an SNA is being used as a classroom assistant because the department is not prepared to allow funding for a classroom assistant then that case should be highlighted to the schools inspector.

I am also aware that it is the IEP governs what help the child receives from the SNA and what one on one help the child will receive from a teacher.If the childs need is such that the SNA does have the time available to help out with general classroom duties, that would be of benefit to all the children in the class.

To go back to the concerns raised by the OP it would appear in this situation that the school in question is taking advantage of the fact that there is an SNA in the classroom.

I didn't post on this thread to have a go at anybody, peoples lives are difficult enough be they Teachers, Parents or Snas.

byhookorbycrook

our SENO says the best mark of an SNA is one who works herself out of a job (ie the child no longer needs that support. Not great if you're an Sna, but you get my point.

Certainly ,they are not meant to be left in sole charge of a class.

mamindah

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

our SENO says the best mark of an SNA is one who works herself out of a job (ie the child no longer needs that support. Not great if you're an Sna, but you get my point.

Certainly ,they are not meant to be left in sole charge of a class.

Hi byhookorbycrook,

I'm no surprised to hear that! It's so disheartening though. I have worked as an SNA and am now out of a job and many more are at risk of loosing their jobs. I just wonder whats the point! I've stayed up late at night studying the special needs of the child i was working with, read books on relevant methods and came close to paying out hundreds on courses such as aba, pecs, challenging behaviour, because i thought i'd be able to make a difference. The only thing that stopped me was that these courses are really expensive and are subsidised for teachers but not for sna's (goes to show the value placed on the contribution of sna's by the department). That together with what your seno said about a good sna, being out of a job, the lack of job security and generally how little is thought of sna's by the department, I'm finally giving up! Thanks byhookorbycrook, you've opened my eyes and shone a blinding light into them!

Good luck everybody, I'm out!

Mamindahouse (or should I say mamjustleftthehouse!?)

byhookorbycrook

mama, didn't mean to dishearten you, think of the child facing into secondary, all the good work that has been done, how the child has come on,how they can now face life. If it's any consolation, it would be the sign of a good learning support teacher too, but of course some children will always be in need of extra support. Chin up.

Sna

Yep you are right Sna's are not suppossed to be in sole charge of a class. Try being left in a class with 30 secondary school children youd want the patience of jobb, luckily I have but saying that why the put down on Snas
I been in suituations where the teacher spoke inapporiately to kids is that okay because H/She is the teacher. Don't paint all us Sna's with the same brush.
Nip it in the bud, go to the school air your greivences about the person involved.
When we snas are left in the class we can't just say Oh I can't mind the class on my own. Think about it, in secondary school you may have one on one with a child for homework, projects and sometimes timeout whats stopping the student turning around saying You are not allowed to mind me on your own and i don't have to do work for you. Its give and take
Sorry for rambling.....
I love being an Sna and the parents whom I deal with are very grateful for any assistance I give their child its a pity the department can't see how much of an impact we have not only in the special needs child but other childern whom may not have any assessments done and just need some help
Would you say no there too???
No matter what we do we can't please everybody

What is the solution I don't know

Sna

Teacher training includes 4 hours of special needs training. Ha Ha HA HA:rolleyes::mad:

I was one of many girls in Kerry who did the first childcare course in Kerry. At the end of that I could get a job in a playschool or a creche. 12 years on i have first aid courses, more courses done in special needs to a level i can't find anything else,computer courses youth and community course but where does it end.
Teachers go to college for four years and they expect respect and have the cheek to tell us they don't want us, belittle us ...one begs the question are they afraid of us.....
We snas don't want to be teachers but we do want to work with them with mutual respect

Fries-With-That

This thread is going in a direction that I don't think was intended by the OP or by any of the comments I have made.

The OP asked for advice on a situation where a SNA was being left in charge of a class.

The concern was that sometimes the SNA may have spoken to his child in an inappropiate manner, without knowing all sides of the story it would be difficult for anyone to offer direct advice in relation to this.

Question:Should the SNA be left in sole charge of a classroom whilst the teacher attends meetings.

Simple answer: NO

Question: Should the SNA be left in charge of a classroom whilst the teacher nips out for a toilet break

Simple answer NO (but we all acknowledge it can and does happen)


Neither question nor answer above should be looked upon as casting any doubts on the abilities or the dedication of any SNA, rather it should be looked upon as a means to get the department face the realities that pertain in most schools today.

The department doesn't want stand alone special needs schools because it would "duplicate services" already offered in mainstream schools. The reality is the department sees mainstreaming as a way to save themselves money.
Let me also add that I am in favour of mainstreaming but for the life of me I can never figure out why we have to have such an ad hoc system that seems to operate on the the basis that we'll try this out and if it doesn't work we'll try something else untill we have a system that we've spent millions on when if we had decided to do it right from day one it would have cost far less.

My point in all of this was my concern that the child with special needs may or may not be put in a difficult position because the SNA was being asked to take on work ( classroom supervision ) that is outside their remit.

I hope that anything that has been posted on this thread hasn't been seen to be Teacher bashing or SNA bashing.

I think we all agree that both strands of the eductation system ( teachers and SNAs) are under incredible pressure with the day to day difficulties that their respective jobs entail.

I am also of the opinion that most people, that haven't come in direct contact with the workload involved in looking after a special needs child don't realise how intense the work actually is.

On the other hand parents expect the SNA to be their eyes and ears and a surrogate parent to their child, now add to this the pressure of trying to listen and evaluate what the teacher is trying to teach at any given moment so that they (the SNA) can translate it so that the special needs child can somehow assimilate it, not an easy task I'm sure you'll agree.

I have also heard the point that a good SNA is one that works themselves out of a job, I prefer to believe that when this is said it is meant as a compliment to the SNA that their input would have such an impact that the child in question would/could integrate into mainstream sooner than they would have if the SNA hadn't been so good.

I believe that there will always be a need for good SNAs exactly because of the reason outlined above.