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Child abuse not in 10 commandments ??

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    #32
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Well, actually UU, many people in geology amongst other things have entertained the notion that Sodom and Gomorrah actually took place.
    http://sp.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/abstract/273/1/133
    http://www.archaeology.org/9607/newsbriefs/sodom.html
    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2942059

    I wouldn't be so easy to dismiss Sodom and Gomorrah as nonsense when many people in academia are entertaining the notion and actually are insisting that it is likely that the two cities were destroyed.


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    #33
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so easy to dismiss Sodom and Gomorrah as nonsense when many people in academia are entertaining the notion and actually are insisting that it is likely that the two cities were destroyed.

    They aren't entertaining the notion, they are trying to find the real world source of the myths, which is the exact opposite of entertaining the notion.


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    #34
    UU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭UU


    Yeah well even if in fact people 3000 years ago or whatever perished in some disaster that doesn't necessarily imply a pseudo-God killed them, it could have been nature or something non-supernatural you know. And perhaps they didn't understand it back then and attributed it to a divine power which as you know was (and still is) a very common thing to do. Just because something mysterious and seemingly out-of-the-ordinary occurs, it seems ridiculous jumping on the bandwagon and claiming "Oh it must be God/Allah/Zeus/Satan, whatever!"


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    #35
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so easy to dismiss Sodom and Gomorrah as nonsense when many people in academia are entertaining the notion and actually are insisting that it is likely that the two cities were destroyed.
    I suspect that should read "entertained by the notion."


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    #36
    Tomk1
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Tomk1


    PDN wrote: »
    Nor do the 10 commandments claim to encompass all the moral guidelines for Christians, or even for Jews.

    The OP is a classic piece of muppetry that takes a little slice of the Old Testament Jewish law and then somehow tries to apply that to Catholic priests as if it were the only moral code that applies to them. Such a ham-fisted and ineffectual attempt to construct an argument against religion must have an intelligent atheist like Bertrand Russell spinning in his godless grave.
    Fine there are up to 603 other commandments, my main point is that if you hold the laws of God up rigidly above Humanic laws/civil laws then there is a conundrum. This leading to the RC having separate laws to Government, which as we have seen when one of their members committed civil crimes the belief in internal punishment seemed applicable. If the RC was a company say a private school then instinctively the board would abide by civil law, if the company didn't then the company would also be punishable by law.
    eoin5 wrote: »
    The poll seems loaded, going just by whats in the brackets I would pick both.

    God says children are to be loved n' protected

    AND

    God says honouring him is more important than children.
    studiorat wrote: »
    yef! stwike him to the flaw!
    True it is loaded, by mistake, the bracket point was more in relation to not carving images of god to worship having high priority and not that the God didn't care about the welfare of children, so an over emotional error.
    studiorat wrote: »
    Throw him to the lions centurion...
    Throw me to God's sheep even??
    It is strange that no one quoted the parts of the bible that says to protect children, as isn't that what religion is Quoting and living by the written Bible. Instead the debate against this trend is semantics or personal opinion that
    shqipshume wrote: »
    I think basic instincts of an adult would not have to be in the ten commandments to protect all children.
    ie basic instincts do not have to be covered in the laws of God.

    Fine forget the poll, deleate it if you like but I see no dedate, as how can you dispute the basic and most important laws that we all learnt as children. By getting personnel
    PDN wrote: »
    muppetry
    is the reason I didn't post this in the christian arena.


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    #37
    cavedave
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    Does anyone else find the story of Isaac weird?

    It says that if god instructs you to kill your son you should. If you believe in one of the religions of the book and would not do this it seems you do not really believe in scripture. If you would you are crazy(Penn discusses this at the end).


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    #38
    Armin_Tamzarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    Rb wrote: »
    Is the bible not rife with child abuse?

    I think I remember hearing somewhere before that Mary was 12 when she became pregnant with Jesus, a source would be good.
    Virgin birth or not, she still had a husband.


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    #39
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »
    I think I remember hearing somewhere before that Mary was 12 when she became pregnant with Jesus, a source would be good.
    Virgin birth or not, she still had a husband.

    Think early- to mid-teens was pretty standard for marriage age at the time.


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    #40
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    Think early- to mid-teens was pretty standard for marriage age at the time.

    Yes, I remember reading somewhere that women got married starting from age 12 and men got married starting from age 13, reflecting the different stages of sexual maturity and capability to recreate. God clearly wanted them to get multiplying and filling the four corners of the earth as soon as possible.


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    #41
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Yes, I remember reading somewhere that women got married starting from age 12 and men got married starting from age 13, reflecting the different stages of sexual maturity and capability to recreate. God clearly wanted them to get multiplying and filling the four corners of the earth as soon as possible.

    I do remember a nice line in Rome where the father said to the daughter in astonished tones 'You're fourteen and still unmarried?!' or something similar. I think people forget when they're reading the Bible and other similar texts that the societies that produced them were very primitive in many ways.


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    #42
    DARKIZE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 79 ✭✭DARKIZE


    Both the OP's argument and the poll are somewhat ingenuous. Any (supposedly christian) person conducting such a gross violation of a child is breaking the very first commandment, ie "Honour thy God"; after all, isn't God considered our Father ?

    I hope Sean Fitzpatrick isn't reading this thread......doesn't say anything in the 10 C's either about hiding your director's loans from the auditors.:D


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    #43
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    I think that the child abuse crisis has more to do with the fact that men who didn't really want to be priests were pressured into joining the celibate priesthood, as an alternative to emigrating for work in the 1950s.


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    #44
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    I think that the child abuse crisis has more to do with the fact that men who didn't really want to be priests were pressured into joining the celibate priesthood, as an alternative to emigrating
    Personally, I suspect that it's got far more to do with men who were institutionally denied a legitimate means of having sex instead choosing an illegitimate one.


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    #45
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    robindch wrote: »
    Personally, I suspect that it's got far more to do with men who were institutionally denied a legitimate means of having sex instead choosing an illegitimate one.

    That's what I was getting at. Men who couldn't handle it were getting into the celibate game.


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    #46
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote: »
    Personally, I suspect that it's got far more to do with men who were institutionally denied a legitimate means of having sex instead choosing an illegitimate one.

    Not sure I would agree with that. I don't think the lack of sexual contact drove them to sexual contact with boys (or people they had access to), if that is what you mean.

    Think it is more likely that paedophiles hid in the priesthood. With little or no interest in adult sexual relationships the priesthood allowed them a socially acceptable way to not have a wife (something that would have drawn attention if they had not been a priest), and allowed them access to young boys and girls.


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    #47
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,970 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    The priesthood is supposed to be a vocation, not a prison sentence, I thought? If a priest can't hack the rules, he can always leave, as some do... but then he wouldn't receive the protection of the Vatican, would he?

    Child abuse is a serious crime. There are no acceptable excuses. :mad:

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #48
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Not sure I would agree with that. I don't think the lack of sexual contact drove them to sexual contact with boys (or people they had access to)
    I believe the figures in the USA are around 75% boys/25% girls, though I suspect that may not be completely accurate for a variety of reasons. It is possible that pedophiles targeted the priesthood, but I've never heard any evidence to corroborate this.

    It seems more likely to me that the abuse was initially opportunistic or almost accidental. I also suspect that quite a few gay men joined the priesthood for the social reason you give. But I don't believe that many of them were pedophiles, at least not to start with anyway. And the high percentage of gay priests may help to explain the male/female asymmetry above, if pedophiles are preferentially attracted to one sex in the same way that adults are.


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