NBS Launch

bealtine

Just back from the launch of the NBS, what a damp squib

Some notes
IHSPA to be used for data
390 sites to be used, 160 new cells sites.
Headline speeds
Cell edge : 1.2Mbps 200kbps
Cell centre : 5Mbps 1.8Mbps
15G data cap (12GB down 3GB up)
Contention 36:1.

Satellite to cover areas not possible with 3g.
(which means most areas as far as I can see)
Avendi(sp) to provide sat service through 3.

watty

Headline speeds
Download Upload
Cell edge : 1.2Mbps 200kbps
Cell centre : 5Mbps 1.8Mbps

I think that is for 5 to 10 users just web browsing. No torrents, video streaming or VOIP happening.

For 24 simultaneous connections on sector assuming 7.2Mbps:
All at Cell edge : 60kbps
All Cell centre : approx 150kbps

At 10 users concurrent download you are under 500kbps even near cell centre. Due to basic mathematics and geometry, if the mast on a hill outside the village the majority get cell edge speed. If it's in the middle of a very small village, then you get near cell centre.

If the whole cell has an equal population density, then 75% are beyond the 1/2 power limit and majority get less than 1/4 speed.


Latency 120ms to 2000ms.

At 250ms latency and even 2Mbps HSDPA page load times are slower than Satellite.

Satellite users will get a more consistent service with a consistent 790ms + latency

Sales of 3G jammers may rise when the Farmers, villagers and other people catch on.

watty

* What product will be offered under the NBS?
3 will extend its network to provide mobile wireless broadband services into NBS areas. The mobile wireless broadband service (HSPA), will have a minimum download speed of 1.2mbps, a minimum upload speed of 200kpbs, a maximum contention ratio of 36:1, a latency of 120 milliseconds and a 15gigabit (12 down, 3 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

In recognition of the fact that some areas will be very difficult to reach using standard infrastructure, in a limited number of cases 3 will make available a satellite product, which may cover up to 8% of the NBS areas. The satellite product will have a minimum download speed of 1mbs, a minimum upload speed of 128kbps, a maximum contention ratio of 48:1, latency of 800 milliseconds and a 11gigabit (10 down, 1 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

The products will be upgraded to higher specifications during the contract term without any increase in the monthly recurring charge.

* What speeds can people expect at launch?

As part of the NBS contract 3 will deliver the following minimum speeds at launch at the edge of cell. Average speeds for customers will be higher.

o Minimum download speed is 1.2Mbps while maximum download speed is 5Mbps
o Minimum upload speed is 200Kbps while maximum upload speed is 1.8Mbps
o Satellite Minimum download speed is 1Mbps
o Satellite upload speed is 128Kbps

From 3's website.

Points:
The HSDPA speeds do not quote number of users
They can't set the contention at 36:1
Analysis of HSPA /CDMA coverage models suggest that those are typical speeds for a sector with a SINGLE connection at a time, and not even minimum speeds unless they refuse connection to poorer signals. The actual real life CONTENDED speed is much lower.

Also due to CDMA nature of HSDPA, 36:1 contention is same as 72:1 contention on DSL, Metro or Cable. 18 to 20 connections in a sector would be near 36:1 contention.

cgarvey

I'd love to hear how they are going to control contention, as Watty said.

Shiny

watty wrote: »

Sales of 3G jammers may rise when the Farmers, villagers and other people catch on.

What do you mean by this?

fergalfrog

One thing I would question - my exchange (Williamstown, Galway) is listed under the NBS on http://www.three.ie/nbs/index.htm (maps are quite detailed in terms of exact locations)

However Eircom have said our exchange will be upgraded between April and June of this year. Does this mean 3 will still get paid for areas like mine even though by the time they get here the uptake of their service will be mimimal as everyone who needs broadband will have got it by then anyway.

If this is the case it's great news for 3 and a massive waste of money for the taxpayer.

thebman

Shiny wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

He means people will want to block the 3 signal so they have to be offered satellite instead of 3's crappy mobile solution.

drunkmonkey

brim4brim wrote: »

He means people will want to block the 3 signal so they have to be offered satellite instead of 3's crappy mobile solution.

Surley that's illegal to block the phone signal, it seems like a lousy thing to do to other users in the area.....

watty

Yes, it's very anti-social, immoral and illegal. I'm only making a social comment, I don't condone it at all, like mentioning that people drink drive partly due to lack of public transport.

thebman

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Surley that's illegal to block the phone signal, it seems like a lousy thing to do to other users in the area.....

It was a joke I think

Few people would actually go to that effort.

The sad part is, you probably would get a better service

Galen

It is more of same auld government BS....

watty

Avanti are VERY cheap as they are very keen to get customers. Their own satellite is experimental and will be launched, if successful, by the experimental prototype Falcon Rocket.

Their current UK / Ireland service uses rented space on an Intelsat satellite, IS-903 at 34.5 deg West.
http://www.avantiplc.com/current_service.htm

It requires a 90cm to over 1m dish for reliable rain operation West of the Shannon.
I think it uses Satlynx gear.

http://www.lyngsat.com/intel903.html
Scroll down to 10969 V
The shared bandwidth for UK & Ireland is totals of
20000 FEC 2/3
12000 FEC 3/4
2480 FEC 7/8
Generous total about 80Mbps or just under 3000 users on 1Mbps @ 36:1 contention (neglecting overheads, FEC etc).

FEC 2/3 is 80cm to 1.2m across Ireland in rain (90cm west of Shannon). 3/4 and 7/8 need better SNR

Downlink Footprint in detail

http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/intel903_spot1.html

Uplink footprint may be different.

Normally VSAT can be better than HSPDA.

Sponge Bob

I note from the three map that the scheme is awarded by Electoral Division .

Some have 100% BB coverage already, eg the Aran Islands in Galway .

fergalfrog

Does this mean 3 get paid for the Aran Islands?

fergalfrog

btw Mr. Ryan is coming on 'The Last Word' in the next hour or so to discuss todays announcement.

PogMoThoin

What a joke that map, seemingly Mayo has no broadband coverage

clohamon

fergalfrog wrote: »

btw Mr. Ryan is coming on 'The Last Word' in the next hour or so to discuss todays announcement.

I wonder will he blame the NBB case again for the delay? (Like he did on the News at lunchtime)

watty

About 25% of their costs. They are unlikely to roll out a mast someplace that Vodaphone has one or there are few customers or the people have access to real Internet.

Basically 3 has to roll out more masts ANYWAY...
They are getting paid about 25% to do what they were going to do. eircom was going to do the same with Meteor.

The only real extra "broadband" coverage will be the satellite users. Meteor and 3 were both adding more coverage anyway. Some of the NBS areas may also have O2 and Vodaphone.

About 10% to 20% (no-one knows exact figure) can't get BB in the non-NBS already covered areas due to dsl fail, cable missing, wireless signal blocked even though inside the "coverage". Those people will not get subsidized Satellite.

The whole thing is a waste of EU and taxpayers money.
http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Government+announces+scheme+to+deliver+broadband+across+Ireland.htm
It doesn't give 100% coverage
It isn't High Speed Broadband
Does nothing for those that fail connection in "covered" areas
Doesn't meet original dcenr spec:
It's not always on, not suitable for VOIP/Games, upload and especially download don't meet spec.
It does not even deliver what 3 claims it delivers.

fergalfrog

PogMoThoin wrote: »

What a joke that map, seemingly Mayo has no broadband coverage

Mayo does have a high rate of broadband not-spots but there are places listed by 3 that already have broadband. See:

http://www.broadbandatoz.ie/your-area.asp?id=18

(see Kilmaine for example)

PogMoThoin

fergalfrog wrote: »

Mayo does have a high rate of broadband not-spots but there are places listed by 3 that already have broadband. See:

http://www.broadbandatoz.ie/your-area.asp?id=18

(see Kilmaine for example)

What about Westnet (and this maps from last year and very outdated), hundreds customers in the red area's

Its a farce

jor el

Ryan is on The Last Word right now. The man is quite obviously the worst thing in the government right now, and the worst thing to happen to Ireland's communications network since, eh, forever.

Apparently, the speeds are fine, it'll have 1Mbps at the edge of the cell, contention is not an issue, it will be quite low! He hasn't a gods damn clue what he's talking about. We're wasting 220 million euro on this crap.

mike65

The audio will be online at http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/Matt-Cooper/listen.aspx later

fergalfrog

One thing he got completely wrong was his reference to Australia. I lived in Australia for 7 years and this country is no comparison.

In Alice Springs which is essentially in the center of a desert you can get broadband (up to 20mbps as far as I recall) - yet I am now living 40 minutes from Galway city which is 20+ times the size of Alice Springs and all I can get is satellite or dial-up.

He mentioned we are going ahead of other countries but it would seem we are going further behind. I was hoping today's announcement would be more like this:

http://www.investinfinland.fi/news/2008/en_GB/Fast_broadband%20/

(100Mb/s to the whole of Finland by 2015)

watty

A spokesman for IoffL appeared briefly on TV3 5:30 news today to criticise the NBS contract.

... it won't meet the needs of people in rural areas ...

-- Anyone catch it?

bealtine

watty wrote: »

A spokesman for IoffL appeared briefly on TV3 5:30 news today to criticise the NBS contract.



-- Anyone catch it?

2FM news will be doing a piece as well but not sure when...

Galen

Originally Posted by PogMoThoin

What about Westnet (and this maps from last year and very outdated), hundreds customers in the red area's

Three's con job isn't working at the moment or at least the map is broken.

Sponge Bob

Where did that lying muppet Ryan get the €220m ( or was that €250m ) number out of ???

Galen

Probably the local leprechaun.

bealtine

watty wrote: »

A spokesman for IoffL appeared briefly on TV3 5:30 news today to criticise the NBS contract.



-- Anyone catch it?

http://www.tv3.ie/news.php?video=4845

clohamon

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where did that lying muppet Ryan get the €220m ( or was that €250m ) number out of ???

How much is the scheme costing?
The value of the investment required to implement the scheme is c. €223m. The Government is contributing €79.8m to the cost of the project over the 68 month contract period.

Is the NBS project co-funded by the EU?
The project will attract EU co-funding under the ERDF 2007-2013 of approximately €30m, reducing the net cost to the Exchequer to approximately €50m

From the 3 FAQ page

cowboy1981

clohamon wrote: »

From the 3 FAQ page

Maybe Ryan's cunning plan is as follows?

• He must know that 3 will fail totally to deliver the NBS contract
• When 3 fail, he can recover the €79M plus any guarantee bonds (perhaps the €220M?) to the exchequer funds for re-allocation to wood-chip burner grants etc.
• While Ryan and his men have been dithering over NBS, he knows that eircom have been continuing to roll out Broadband and will probably keep going for another while, as their programme is already underway. When eircom are finished there will probably be less than <5% of customers whose exchanges won't be enabled.
• Nobody will notice <5% of customers in very rural areas. Those who really want Broadband and who are out of range for eircom, will get Satellite and pay for it themselves, or move house.

If Ryan had given the contract to eircom, they would probably have succeeded in delivering, and the exchequer would have had to pay out the funds in full, albeit a lower amount (because eircom already have DSL and Meteor networks, so it couldn't have cost them as much as a completely new network for 3.)

bealtine

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0122/broadband.html

watty

They are spending less than 30M Eur I think as the balance of the 79M Eur comes from EU.

rahtkennades

cowboy1981 wrote: »

...Ryan's.....cunning plan

Yeah. Sure. :P

watty

cowboy1981 wrote: »

If Ryan had given the contract to eircom, they would probably have succeeded in delivering, and the exchequer would have had to pay out the funds in full, albeit a lower amount (because eircom already have DSL and Meteor networks, so it couldn't have cost them as much as a completely new network for 3.)

Not true.
Meteor is mostly GSM. They have an expensive 3G rollout to do or lose the new licence that Smart thought they had got.

eircom was pretty much going to do the same as 3, but with a better Satellite service and maybe some fixed Wireless. Mostly Meteor HSDPA. They were more realistic about costs so 3 was cheaper and thus was chosen.

Avanti as Satellite supplier is very cheap. Boards rules and other constraints mean I can't give any more analysis than here.

The NBS subsidises the on going costs more than the infrastructure, so after the NBS the prices will go up, especially Satellite. The Satellite service is subsidised a lot hence limited to 8% by NBS scheme.

Sponge Bob

So Ryan CLAIMED to be spending €223m when he is actually spending €39m . Some lie that but so typical of the low standards that he consistently sets himself

thebman

Sponge Bob wrote: »

So Ryan CLAIMED to be spending €223m when he is actually spending €39m . Some lie that but so typical of the low standards that he consistently sets himself

That's the first thing I noticed. Is there no low he won't go to?

ednwireland

NBS, move along, nothing to see here,
what a complete utter waste of money how is this going to help small businesses get decent BB connections and i despair of commentators (re pat kenny's radio show yesterday)n saying ryan has ideas i've seen none of it. stalling and doing nothing, empty announcements just like the rest of the gov. at least i got BB after 3 years of complaining. rock solid connection with no hnges to the lines.

bealtine

ednwireland wrote: »

NBS, move along, nothing to see here,
what a complete utter waste of money

Oh so true...Here is a piece from the SBP from last august:
http://www.yourtechstuff.com/techwire/2008/08/where-mobile-br.html

Hopefully it's ok to post it in full...
"Where mobile broadband speeds vary around Dublin

I spent lots of last week comparing all three networks' mobile broadband products in different locations around the city for a newspaper article. Speeds vary substantially. In Dublin 9 (Drumcondra), O2 reigns supreme with speeds of over 2Mbs. In Harcourt Street, though, it shrinks to under 0.5Mbs. 3, by comparison hits over 1Mbs in Harcourt Street but falls to about 0.6Mbs in Drumcondra. And it's a similar story around different parts of the city.

Incidentally, 3 is set to switch on its extra mobile broadband speed (x2) "any day now", according to executives in the network"

thebman

X2 switch

Oh fook lads, who didn't spot that earlier :P

watty

Only helps speed for 1/8 to 1/4 of subscribers.