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Most Vitriolic Ever Attack on Teachers?
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Enough with the condescension - you must be a proper old 'kid' if you remember 'Soundings', I believe I had it for English way back. I presume this patronising comment stems from my greasy till analogy, referring of course to the gombeenism which so typifies the private sector, 'entrepeneurial' merchant class in this country. Of which the likes of Bev Flynn so exemplified a fortnight ago - sense of entitlement anyone?.
I'm not sure you're aware but I and every other public sector worker pay taxes, same as private sector, when they can't get away through 'creative accounting'. Pay As You Earn not as you feel like. How much tax did Tony O'Reilly or Dermot Desmond pay last year? Who benefited the most from the good times when the country was 'the richest in Europe'(!)? Who do you expect to pay the price now it's all gone belly up?
The country is not being run by teachers either (couple of aberrations aside). Teachers are, on the other hand, at the forefront in providing education to the kids of today and the tax payers of tomorrow. Whether you like it or not without teachers the whole thing is staying on the ground, where would you be without education, or perhaps you don't rate all that fancy book learning?
I'm not a maths teacher but that doesn't interfere with the knowledge that it was people who crunched numbers all day who quite possibly ruined this country. I don't quite see why you and your chums feel it's the fault of the Public sector that everything is falling down around our ears, could you clarify that point for me please? Or maybe you don't blame us but it's a whipping boy scenario? Can't, after all, beat the kings for their 'mischief'. And because of the public service payments and tax system it's just bloody easy to 'stick it to us' - maybe thats the real reason eh KK? Because you know only too well getting a fair share from the private sector was hard enough when times were good so it's a blood from a stone scenario now the hatches are battened down. Thousands of people made tens of millions of euros in the last decade, where's it gone? Wealth tax anyone? Nah, didn't think so.0 -
I certainly have not set out to belittle anyone - just to offer an opinion, immediately there was a "dem n us" and i / private sector was in the minority. The suggestion that teachers do not drive big cars was made very early on was countered by me because i know two teachers in their 20's in "big cars" how they funded them is anyone's guess - i just made mine known. I have never nor would ever defend the likes of Bev Flynn nor the ex Galway tent attendee, brown envelope brigade who operated in the presence of the higher level public and civil servants creating loopholes that you could run an elephant through.Enough with the condescension - you must be a proper old 'kid' if you remember 'Soundings', I believe I had it for English way back. I presume this patronising comment stems from my greasy till analogy, referring of course to the gombeenism which so typifies the private sector, 'entrepeneurial' merchant class in this country. Of which the likes of Bev Flynn so exemplified a fortnight ago - sense of entitlement anyone?.
I'm not sure you're aware but I and every other public sector worker pay taxes, same as private sector, when they can't get away through 'creative accounting'. Pay As You Earn not as you feel like. How much tax did Tony O'Reilly or Dermot Desmond pay last year? Who benefited the most from the good times when the country was 'the richest in Europe'(!)? Who do you expect to pay the price now it's all gone belly up?
The country is not being run by teachers either (couple of aberrations aside). Teachers are, on the other hand, at the forefront in providing education to the kids of today and the tax payers of tomorrow. Whether you like it or not without teachers the whole thing is staying on the ground, where would you be without education, or perhaps you don't rate all that fancy book learning?
I'm not a maths teacher but that doesn't interfere with the knowledge that it was people who crunched numbers all day who quite possibly ruined this country. I don't quite see why you and your chums feel it's the fault of the Public sector that everything is falling down around our ears, could you clarify that point for me please? Or maybe you don't blame us but it's a whipping boy scenario? Can't, after all, beat the kings for their 'mischief'. And because of the public service payments and tax system it's just bloody easy to 'stick it to us' - maybe thats the real reason eh KK? Because you know only too well getting a fair share from the private sector was hard enough when times were good so it's a blood from a stone scenario now the hatches are battened down. Thousands of people made tens of millions of euros in the last decade, where's it gone? Wealth tax anyone? Nah, didn't think so.
Call it whipping boy or call it insufficient funds; but the public service bill cannot be paid. Who is to be cut? I have not blamed anyone - brought up worth or value of professions I just think both public and private will have to take the hit. Its very very apparent that private sectors all across the board are taking the hit. Revenue will recoup a limited amount from Joe Bloggs who didn't declare his 1000e shares back in 2005 but really that won't do much.
So as for the aim of the thread initially - if someone comes out and says that teachers in Ireland are the highest paid and we are in an economy where we could go bankrupt then the man has a fair point and it is a million miles from ascorbic.
regarding patronising - don't give it out of you can't take it.0 -
I certainly have not set out to belittle anyone - just to offer an opinion, immediately there was a "dem n us" and i / private sector was in the minority.
This comment reminds me of the old Basil Fawlty line "what exactly did you expect to see from a Torquay hotel bedroom window..........Sydney Opera House perhaps?":rolleyes:
It is the Teaching & Lecturing forum and there's a clue in the name as to the type of people you'll find here, so I don't know why you are making an issue of the "dem n us" as you so eloquently put it.
If you get someone with too much time on their hands who has been told by clever hindsighters on the radio why the economy has gone nipples up and they decide to go trolling around offering this opinion as if they invented it you might just encounter occasional resistence.
If this trolling includes the inconsistency of maintaining that a profession - of which you wrote elsewhere "if you are going into it with €€ in mind it probably will drive you nuts" - was a significant factor in causing economic over-heating because you know two people with nice cars (wow, what an impressive sample.........) you might just have picked the wrong forum if you wanted to be in the "us" camp rather than the "dem" camp.
You are the kind of amateur economist who correctly predicted seven of the last two recessions.0 -
(closed thinkers / narrowminded - no actually i did not expect that) Pardon me for thinking that there were no sides and both public and private are working in and sharing in our countries economy.Sir Humphrey wrote: »This comment reminds me of the old Basil Fawlty line "what exactly did you expect to see from a Torquay hotel bedroom window..........Sydney Opera House perhaps?":rolleyes:
It is the Teaching & Lecturing forum and there's a clue in the name as to the type of people you'll find here, so I don't know why you are making an issue of the "dem n us" as you so eloquently put it.
Picked the wrong forum to give a balanced perspective of a Primetime debate. probably. incidentally what would you say to someone thinking of teaching and the €€ element of the job? Teachers are not happy with the money as it stands re benchmarking - and you think someone who qualifies into the job will suddenly take a different view? I hate to break it to you but the pension, permanency and money do attract many to teaching (and mothers into activley encouraging children into the state professions) hence the exceptionally high points and oversupply of training courses for teachers. I however don't think the wages are bad there i dared to say that on this forum. I was not the one to suggest teachers did cause overheating - i just made the statement that they were involved to the same extent as everyone else.Sir Humphrey wrote: »If this trolling includes the inconsistency of maintaining that a profession - of which you wrote elsewhere "if you are going into it with €€ in mind it probably will drive you nuts" - was a significant factor in causing economic over-heating because you know two people with nice cars (wow, what an impressive sample.........) you might just have picked the wrong forum if you wanted to be in the "us" camp rather than the "dem" camp.
Am I? was there an insult in there somewhere? Seeing as how you remember soundings you were probably predicting them when i was in college.Sir Humphrey wrote: »You are the kind of amateur economist who correctly predicted seven of the last two recessions.0 -
[quote=kiwikid;58684713
Seeing as how you remember soundings you were probably predicting them when i was in college.
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I never mentioned 'soundings' - you are getting confused now. As for your attempted insulting ripostes (even if they were aimed at the right person), you're a bit like the eunoch in the harem - you've seen it done, you know how it's done but you can't do it yourself.0 -
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Seeing as how you remember soundings you were probably predicting them when i was in college.
That's me who remembers Soundings - guilty as charged boss!:p I prefer The Rattlebag myself though. Don't really see what it has to do with anything under discussion in this thread however, unless it's a dig at my age? This has become a little stale at this point, must investigate other fora to see what others are saying about the damned public sector, I mean Health, Education, Law and Order - who needs 'em eh? What have pub. sect. workers ever done for us? I presume it's going to be the same spiel as last time I checked; paid too much, not working enough, cosy stable job, regular income etc. And to top it all, I love my it!! How outrageous is that, the audacity of it! I love you KK, for putting a little perspective on things, cheers!
P.S. Only 3 more weeks to mid-term
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P.S. freire, what are you doing for midterm, heaven forbid we talk about holidays which are simply part of our working conditions?
Now to think about my "free" pension and what i can do with the "millions" I will get......0 -
I'm not a teacher, my wife is which is how I found this forum. I'm in the private sector.
My opinion (and that's all it is!!)
Public finances are in complete meltdown, due to govt. incompetence in encouraging the property bubble and the greed of the vested interests (banks, developers, etc.) There is no easy way out of this mess.
As a result the private sector is suffering massively through redundancies, defined contribution pensions being decimated, cutbacks, etc. and it will only get worse this year and next.
The private sector looks at the public sector and sees only two things: job security and defined benefit pensions.
The private sector belives the public sector should sacrifice somewhat proportionately to what they are going through.
They believe this not out of malice or a hatred of any sector of the public service, but because they feel this is a form of "natural justice" and that it will help with the ultimate stabilisation of the public finances and economic recovery.
I agree there are some mischievious parties out there who are trying to personalise this against certain sectors like civil servants or teachers or guards, but broadly speaking people want the cutbacks because we just cannot afford the costs and we have to spread the pain. (Some of the public sector unions are doing themselves no favours with their hardline stance and language).
How would the public sector react if given a choice; 20% paycut or 20% cut in jobs, and everyone moves to a defined contribution pension? That's the reality facing the private sector, and it's just not credible that the public sector can be insulated from this new reality.
I also think the anger against those suggesting this such as Ed Walsh is misdirected. Get angry with Fianna Fail who put us in this position where everybody will have to suffer.
We're all going to have to carry the can for this mess. How do we get payback:
Every union (public and private sectors), every organisation in the country affected by this has to campaign to obliterate Fianna Fail from existence in the next few elections. It won't get the jobs or paycuts back, but it will take away the only thing these people crave, power with no accountability.0 -
I'm not a teacher, my wife is which is how I found this forum. I'm in the private sector.
My opinion (and that's all it is!!)
Public finances are in complete meltdown, due to govt. incompetence in encouraging the property bubble and the greed of the vested interests (banks, developers, etc.) There is no easy way out of this mess.
As a result the private sector is suffering massively through redundancies, defined contribution pensions being decimated, cutbacks, etc. and it will only get worse this year and next.
The private sector looks at the public sector and sees only two things: job security and defined benefit pensions.
The private sector belives the public sector should sacrifice somewhat proportionately to what they are going through.
They believe this not out of malice or a hatred of any sector of the public service, but because they feel this is a form of "natural justice" and that it will help with the ultimate stabilisation of the public finances and economic recovery.
I agree there are some mischievious parties out there who are trying to personalise this against certain sectors like civil servants or teachers or guards, but broadly speaking people want the cutbacks because we just cannot afford the costs and we have to spread the pain. (Some of the public sector unions are doing themselves no favours with their hardline stance and language).
How would the public sector react if given a choice; 20% paycut or 20% cut in jobs, and everyone moves to a defined contribution pension? That's the reality facing the private sector, and it's just not credible that the public sector can be insulated from this new reality.
I also think the anger against those suggesting this such as Ed Walsh is misdirected. Get angry with Fianna Fail who put us in this position where everybody will have to suffer.
We're all going to have to carry the can for this mess. How do we get payback:
Every union (public and private sectors), every organisation in the country affected by this has to campaign to obliterate Fianna Fail from existence in the next few elections. It won't get the jobs or paycuts back, but it will take away the only thing these people crave, power with no accountability.
You clearly haven't noticed that there is a worldwide banking crisis and the view that if Enda Kenny was Taoiseach this country would somehow be immune to its effects is laughable if populist. You'be been reading too much simplistic stuff about the Galway tent.
Te other side of your coin is that the public sector had looked at the private sector creaming it off for the past number of years, ripping people off at every hand's turn and blowing about how well it was doing. It is perhaps inevitable that some in the public sector now rail against the notion that they now have to bail everyone out because the private sector emporer has no clothes.0 -
P.S. freire, what are you doing for midterm, heaven forbid we talk about holidays which are simply part of our working conditions?
Now to think about my "free" pension and what i can do with the "millions" I will get......
To tell the truth TheDriver I've no plans. Maybe a little detour to Hawaii via LA for some shopping. Because I'm worth it.0 -
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Alright guys, final warning here. Keep on topic. Argue the facts and no more silly bickering. Thanks.0
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Sir Humphrey wrote: »You clearly haven't noticed that there is a worldwide banking crisis and the view that if Enda Kenny was Taoiseach this country would somehow be immune to its effects is laughable if populist. You'be been reading too much simplistic stuff about the Galway tent.
Te other side of your coin is that the public sector had looked at the private sector creaming it off for the past number of years, ripping people off at every hand's turn and blowing about how well it was doing. It is perhaps inevitable that some in the public sector now rail against the notion that they now have to bail everyone out because the private sector emporer has no clothes.
You clearly haven't noticed that this country went into a downturn well before the banking crisis, and it's all down to the property bubble bursting from mid 2006 onwards (large scale loss of unsustainable construction jobs and related jobs, and then filtering through the rest of the economy, contributing to massive shortfalls in tax compounded by unbudgeted social welfare payments). The banks can't give credit because of the international situation but their loan books were well screwed before last September, because of their imprudent developer loans. You're been listening to too much self serving spin from the two Brians. If wouldn't matter if Enda, Eamon, Bono, or God Almighty himself was Taoiseach right now or at any time in the last year, the damage was done over the last eight years. There is no happy ending or easy solution, we're screwed for the next 5-10 years and everybody has to pay for the sins of FF, the banks, the developers, etc.
Why was there benchmarking and massive pay increases in the public and private sector? So that people could just about afford over inflated house prices. The result - 1)we're uncompetitive in the private sector - result massive unemployment 2) We can't afford the public sector wage bill - result ???
Who creamed it off in the public sector? Just the golden circle of vested interests and the folks at the top. The massive majority of the private sector are PAYE workers like yourself who are trying to get by, the average industrial salary is lower than that of a teacher (I have no problem with that, I'm just pointing out that most of the private sector just got by). Right now tens of thousands of them are paying for the economic mismangement of the last few years by losing their jobs and in many instances their homes.
As I see it broadly speaking one side of the coin is the PAYE worker, both public and private, in other words you and me. The other side of the coin is the elite, the politicians, the developers, the mega rich, the accidental millionaires. Right now on our side of the coin the private sector is suffering and the public sector will have to as well. On the other side of the coin, it's up to the government to stick to the rich, and to be honest I won't be holding my breath.
There are parties out there trying to make this a public/private sector arguement in order to deflect attention from their culpability for this situation (take a bow Seanie Fitz) and their moral obligation to pay through the nose to sort out the mess, or at least stand up and say "it's our fault". Accountability however is a foreign concept in Ireland.0 -
Sir Humphrey wrote: »I won't reply to the last post in the tone it invites as per the moderator's request. I take it that it has itself breached the "final warning" message.
I said you and I are on the same side of the coin and we're all going to suffer.
I set out the reasons for my position in line with the moderators wishes. I resorted to no name calling or insults. We just happen to have a very major difference in opinion. You may not like or agree with my opinion but to imply I breached the "final warning" is in my humble opinion an over reaction. It is entirely possible for you to respond to my opinion with your own, without the need for the tone you think it invites. Just tell me where you think I am wrong and what the facts are as you see it. I make no claims to infallibility, and have been known to change my mind when presented with alternative opinions.
Any pay cuts or pension levies on public servants will impact my family directly as my wife is a teacher. I don't want these things to happen but I believe they are unavoidable. It is through no fault of the public service that they will have to suffer for the incompetence of the government for the last 8 years, but it is naive to think they will be immune from the current economic fallout, when so many PAYE workers in the private sector are losing their jobs and government revenues are falling so quickly.0 -
The private sector looks at the public sector and sees only two things: job security and defined benefit pensions.
may I suggest that people are being a bit simplistic when looking at these things.
Job security has two dimensions
1. not losing your job when you don't do it properly
2. not losing your job through redundancy.
1. is not relevant to most people and perhaps should not exist, I would not mourn its passing for one as I have every intention of doing my job well.
2. arises because the public sector mostly deals with continuing activity. You are obliged by law to send your kids to school and people often stay longer in the 3rd level when times are poor. If the whole sector was sold to Ray Kearns then the number of educators would still be much the same. If you sell Mercedes cars, provide manicures or build houses in Edgeworthstown then people can dispense with you in a recession. If you are delivering their babies or educating their children then they will try and retain your services come what may.
Resulting from the continuing nature of their jobs public sector people tend to stay in the same job for long periods. So the government simply has budget €x for 40 years work and €y for 15 years retirement. These defined benefit pensions do not have a excessive cost as the business of government continues, so it is not at all unreasonable that public pensions are organised in this way. Now I accept that these pensions are a benefit to the recipient and this is recognised as a factor in somewhat lower salaries overall.
Government income has declined and this may require pay reductions, but other forms of waste must be attacked first. Sticking a pension contribution on everyone is a cop out without looking at the efficiencies of various forms of public expenditure, education in Ireland is relatively efficient by international standards (see OECD), the same is not true of all parts of the public sector.0 -
may I suggest that people are being a bit simplistic when looking at these things.
Job security has two dimensions
1. not losing your job when you don't do it properly
2. not losing your job through redundancy.
1. is not relevant to most people and perhaps should not exist, I would not mourn its passing for one as I have every intention of doing my job well.
2. arises because the public sector mostly deals with continuing activity. You are obliged by law to send your kids to school and people often stay longer in the 3rd level when times are poor. If the whole sector was sold to Ray Kearns then the number of educators would still be much the same. If you sell Mercedes cars, provide manicures or build houses in Edgeworthstown then people can dispense with you in a recession. If you are delivering their babies or educating their children then they will try and retain your services come what may.
Resulting from the continuing nature of their jobs public sector people tend to stay in the same job for long periods. So the government simply has budget €x for 40 years work and €y for 15 years retirement. These defined benefit pensions do not have a excessive cost as the business of government continues, so it is not at all unreasonable that public pensions are organised in this way. Now I accept that these pensions are a benefit to the recipient and this is recognised as a factor in somewhat lower salaries overall.
Government income has declined and this may require pay reductions, but other forms of waste must be attacked first. Sticking a pension contribution on everyone is a cop out without looking at the efficiencies of various forms of public expenditure, education in Ireland is relatively efficient by international standards (see OECD), the same is not true of all parts of the public sector.
Good points, I'd agree with a lot of it.
1) We know there is massive inefficency in large parts of the public service (not teaching,nursing or guards) that would not be tolerated in the private sector, and we know that it is very difficult to get rid of underperformers in all disciplines. The private sector resents having to subsidise this inefficiency.
2) Well put, I hadn't really looked at it that way. However I believe that by making these jobs for life, you remove accountability and incentive for some people. By making the jobs "at risk", there is still no reason why a good teacher, doctor or nurse should not have a job for life for the reasons you outlined so well above, and the underperformers, and unnecessary administrative layers that form could be weeded out to make services overall more efficient.
3) We'd all love defined benefit pensions. There is a very large cost associated with them when you consider the size of the public sector. Employees contribute but the govt. (taxpayer) contributes the vast majority. It is a major benefit to public servants. Many in the private sector have no pensions, most of those who do, have defined contribution and we have seen losses of 40% in many schemes in the last year.
The private sector is suffering through job losses, short workweeks, decimated pensions, pay freezes and cuts, and debilitating uncertainty over our futures.
On the assumption that public service jobs are secure, pay cuts are the only area where money can be saved from this particular area of expenditure in a time of massive budget deficits.
I agree all other areas must be looked at as well, but the public sector pay bill is too large to go unchallenged.
As I previously mentioned this is not a dig at the public sector and I bear it no animosity, it's just that the savings have to be made across the board, as unfair, annoying and frustrating as that is. Blame the govt. and the golden circle who made out like bandits in the last ten years, and thank God you're not in the private sector and worrying about whether or not you'll have a job or a house in six months.0 -
Good points, I'd agree with a lot of it.
and thank God you're not in the private sector and worrying about whether or not you'll have a job or a house in six months.
I would like to point out that many of us will be losing jobs. 3 people who depended on work from our school haven't been seen since December. Our school will lose 3 teachers in September, another not far away will lose 4. The substantial number of teachers who are on short term contracts or no contracts at all are just as stressed as anyone in the private sector, so please don't assume we're all sitting pretty. I worry if I'll have a job from week to week (and have spent most of my time since qualifying in that situation).0 -
I would like to point out that many of us will be losing jobs. 3 people who depended on work from our school haven't been seen since December. Our school will lose 3 teachers in September, another not far away will lose 4. The substantial number of teachers who are on short term contracts or no contracts at all are just as stressed as anyone in the private sector, so please don't assume we're all sitting pretty. I worry if I'll have a job from week to week (and have spent most of my time since qualifying in that situation).
it's the same story in my school, 3 or 4 teachers are probably going to lose their jobs at the end of this school year and some of the other contract teachers might have a cut in hours. things are going to be very tight next year. we don't have any regular external subs coming in any more either.0 -
Yeah, we're probably going to lose 2 or 3 teachers next year. People are seriously worried about it. Our regular subs have been getting very little work. Job security is certainly not a guaranteed part of the job.0
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I dont understand how teachers or anyone in the public can take the bashing they get from people every time they re looking for someone to blame for their problems.
I wouldnt take it. Dont take a pay cut either. Just DONT. Stand your ground and show others what life would be like without the public sector.0 -
"What we have we hold, regardless of circumstances."I dont understand how teachers or anyone in the public can take the bashing they get from people every time they re looking for someone to blame for their problems.
I wouldnt take it. Dont take a pay cut either. Just DONT. Stand your ground and show others what life would be like without the public sector.
"We all do our job well, how dare anyone suggest otherwise."
That's the sort of attitude that loses us public support.
When times were good we were happy to jump on the benchmarking bandwagon.
Now's the time to show some solidarity with private sector workers.
I, for one, think its time for all public sector workers to show leadership in this area.
Of course, it would help if politicians took the lead.
Tony Kileen, and others, could start by relinquishing their teaching posts.0 -
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I think you guys should take a look over at the teaching thread in AH. I imagine you will have a few relevent things to say there having read this thread!!0
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When times were good we were happy to jump on the benchmarking bandwagon.
Ha Ha !You mean having to do MORE work so as to fall LESS behind inflation ?You dont seriously think this was a 'rise' do you ?0 -
the attacks on the teaching profession show just how little respect people have for it.
I'll be finished college in May up until this college year, all through school and college (and I did business for a year before teaching) I was told finding a job would be no problem for my generation, however now I along with all the others about to quailfy may not find jobs and it's scary, I wish people in the private sector would start to see teachers as fellow tax payers and realise that it's an uncertain future for all of us.0 -
I agree with tha above points. The vast majority of teachers spent years on short tertm contracts that were, in effect, private sector conditions with public sector pay. The situation improved slightly with the introduction of the FTW Act but now jobs will be much more scarce than the majority of private sector areas.
It is trime to tackle the colleges on this. They are training teachers indiscriminately. Supply and demand and proper planning must become part of future training needs. Imagine if they applied this system to other elements of the public service e.g. the guards, the army etc....
Young trachers are now left in complete limbo, they are trained professionals with no opportunity of plying their trade. The children, and staff, need younger teachers to bolster the system, to introduce fresh ideas and to bring their energy and vitality to the system.
Now we will be waiting for natural wastage to kick in before the jobs situation will open up.0 -
I'm really worn out by all the vitriol.
I knew going into it that not every student would love me, but I'm utterly exhausted by all the hatred pouring out on teachers by the general public. People are so vilely angry with the education system.
Message boards, newspapers, even passing acquaintances have something nasty to say about teachers and teaching.
And to top it all off, I'm doing my hdip and have a near enough guarantee NOT to get a job in Ireland. I'm tired of being "reassured" that there are jobs in England, Canada and Australia. I want to live in Ireland!0
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