Pepper spray to be new weapon for the Garda

eroo

By Kevin Doyle

Friday January 02 2009

AS MANY as 15,000 canisters of pepper spray are to be handed out to rank and file gardai in the New Year.

The Garda Commission will place an initial order for 3,000 of the specially branded sprays in February, the Herald has learned.

Despite the concerns of civil liberties groups, the Minister for Justice confirmed that he would press ahead with plans to introduce the new weapons.

And now Garda HQ has set a deadline of February 11 for companies to apply to supply the "handheld incapacitant spray devices".

It is understood that the first batch of sprays will be given to the Emergency Response Unit (ERU) followed by all other gardai by the end of the year.

Each unit will have a unique serial number and/or code that will make it clearly identifiable as the property of the force.

According to gardai the delivery of the sprays is to be on a phased basis with a further 12,000 units then likely to be bought in packages of 1,000 over the next 12 months.

Applicants have also been told that they must "allow for the tracking" of the devices and also an "in use" quality control programme.

weapon

The use of the non-lethal device will be the first time such a weapon has been used on the streets of Ireland.

Pepper spray is a lachrymatory agent -- a chemical that irritates the eyes and can even cause temporary blindness.

However, gardai have said that the sprays will cause less damage than a baton and they have welcomed the move to introduce the pepper sprays.

One of the reasons they have cited is the fact that attacks on officers jumped by more than 80pc between 2005 and 2007, up from 356 attacks in 2005 to 655 last year.

- Kevin Doyle

So if the supply contract is open until February 11, how can they expect to get 15,000 canisters by the end of the year in monthly phases? It will realistically be March/April until the 1st 3,000 are sent out after supply contract, payment etc. So that leaves 8/9 months to hand out 12,000 more, but in phases of 1,000. Doesn't really add up does it? So to the Gardai online here, yiz could be waiting a while!

deadwood

Us guards are of the glass-half-full school of thought.

With the financial squeeze at the minute, restaurants are closing quicker than deadwoods cheeks during a guinness follow-thru fart.

They've bought a job lot of these along with some e-voting machines.

Eru

What did I predict when this was first mentioned? December 2010 I believe it was and Im getting more and more confident.

BTW, anyone hear the latest? a ten percent wage REDUCTION:eek:

FGR

Which liberal media group suggested that, Karl?

/recalls Newstalk Morning Show looking for the heads of all those in the Public Service.

Even Michael O'Leary, who was on the line; was trying to calm them down suggesting that a wage cut is not what's needed!

Eru

Actually it came from an officer.

FGR

I'll be frank and say that I have no problem with a freeze on the wage deal. No point increasing anyone's salary during these times..And I'm not even interested in hearing a date of when they'd continue with it.

I also don't mind paying higher taxes. The social welfare money needs to come from somewhere. In fact I'm a strong believer that the state should have jacked up the base and higher rates of tax in the last budget as opposed to the mickey mouse stealth approach they have taken. I wouldn't be opposed to higher increases in those taxes either.

But what does a pay cut do? It's yet another stealth 'tax' on those in the public sector. The media want our heads as we're the easiest target out there..and although I do understand that a lot of senior public servants are earning ridiculous money I think aiming at those earning under 50k will have a serious repercussion.

Being that the Pay Deal/PPF was aimed to allow people to embrace change and greater efficiencies imagine what would happen in this case..on top of additional taxes..in an organisation like AGS which actually has changed there will be a massive backfire. Not a blue flu..but a 'what do you expect?' approach and a reduction in acceptance of change.

Again I'll state I have no problem paying higher taxes..but cutting salaries for new and serving members in the front line is a shot back to the stone age and blatantly a double taxation.

And to put this all back -on- topic: I don't mind waiting for the spray once it's adequate and fit for purpose - not the kind where we'll go through three cheap versions costing millions before going getting the product we should have gone for in the first place.

G_R

its about time the gardai got these.

its a disgrace that they didnt get them ages ago. i mean how long have they been in use in the UK now?

---

woohoo! 100th post:D

TheNog

eroo wrote: »

So if the supply contract is open until February 11, how can they expect to get 15,000 canisters by the end of the year in monthly phases? It will realistically be March/April until the 1st 3,000 are sent out after supply contract, payment etc. So that leaves 8/9 months to hand out 12,000 more, but in phases of 1,000. Doesn't really add up does it? So to the Gardai online here, yiz could be waiting a while!

The article is not worded brilliantly and I did have to read that part a couple of times but what it does say or at least mean to say is canisters are to be issued to all rank and file gardai and further 12,000 to be purchased, 1000 every month. These 12000 I presume will be replacement units or refills when members run out (after spraying themselves and other guards).

I can understand the need to for training and the proper tracking of each unit so am willing to wait patiently for it.

I dont know why the author referred to the spray as a weapon though

nobodythere

Will there be training given to guards on how to use them properly?


There's one guy on Road Wars who manages to spray himself every ****in time!

TheNog

grasshopa wrote: »

Will there be training given to guards on how to use them properly?


There's one guy on Road Wars who manages to spray himself every ****in time!

Yeah I would think so

deadwood

grasshopa wrote: »

There's one guy on Road Wars who manages to spray himself every ****in time!

Which reminds me.
Where's Metman this weather?:D

civdef

There are trainer units available, which operate identically, but fire plain H2O, and are used for training to practice aiming. They make for excellent water pistol battles on courses.

Trojan911

civdef wrote: »

There are trainer units available, which operate identically, but fire plain H2O, and are used for training to practice aiming. They make for excellent water pistol battles on courses.

When we had them rolled out in the Met we used H2O to practise etc however we were offered a chance to feel what it was like to experience a dose, so a weaker version of what is issued was sprayed into our facial area. This was voluntary but I had a go & it still stung, great for clearing the sinuses though. Do you know what % strength they are?

TheNog

deadwood wrote: »

Which reminds me.
Where's Metman this weather?:D

He goes off line for a while every so often. He claims its cos of work but I dont believe him

eroo

TheNog wrote: »

The article is not worded brilliantly and I did have to read that part a couple of times but what it does say or at least mean to say is canisters are to be issued to all rank and file gardai and further 12,000 to be purchased, 1000 every month. These 12000 I presume will be replacement units or refills when members run out (after spraying themselves and other guards).

I had another read of it myself, and it appears that you are correct!:)

donvito99

Trojan911 wrote: »

When we had them rolled out in the Met we used H2O to practise etc however we were offered a chance to feel what it was like to experience a dose, so a weaker version of what is issued was sprayed into our facial area. This was voluntary but I had a go & it still stung, great for clearing the sinuses though. Do you know what % strength they are?

I see alot of Garda Station Pranks coming on..

And why not just call it water...police technical term of course.

Eru

donvito99 wrote: »

And why not just call it water...police technical term of course.

They want to drown us!

the locust

Yeah i can just imagine it now - 4am in the public office on a monday night and a hand appears around the corner of a door with a burst of spray in the face! ha!

djtechnics1210

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

What did I predict when this was first mentioned? December 2010 I believe it was and Im getting more and more confident.

BTW, anyone hear the latest? a ten percent wage REDUCTION:eek:

They can gladly take 10 percent of my overtime...............
which is currently 0 hours, has been since start december and will probably remain that way for 2009 :mad:

Trojan911

donvito99 wrote: »

I see alot of Garda Station Pranks coming on..

Well, there was a story flying around shortly after it was issued, about an officer in the counties who didn't get on with his Chief Super.

Apparently he sprayed a bit (not water) onto the jacks roll in the Chief Supers toilet/shower room. He was apparently caught when all the sprays were seized & weighed & his was under weight and he couldn't account for it being under weight. Not sure if the Chief actually got to the wiping bit or sussed it prior but imagine the pain either way.

(All canisters are seized & bagged after use & weighed to establish the amount deployed on a perp)

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

So if the supply contract is open until February 11, how can they expect to get 15,000 canisters by the end of the year in monthly phases?

These are big companies going for the contract, they'll have large production capacity & a lot of stock to hand. They won't pick a product unless they're sure the vendor can deliver.

The ERU & RSU already have OC, I would imagine the rest of the Gardaí will get the same.

deadwood

cushtac wrote: »

The ERU & RSU already have OC, I would imagine the rest of the Gardaí will get the same.

Why is it that every time some new equipment is rolled out, the ERU and othe so-called support services are the first to receive it? On the occasions they are called out, they travel in packs, are rarely the first responders, and have guns coming out their ying-yangs.

Surely the first people to recive any equipment like this should be the guard on the beat who often works alone, is unarmed, apart from an asp, and can be miles from assistance.

This attitude from within our own outfit really grinds my gears. The uniformed guard is the person joe public wants to see and is the face of An Garda Síochána. They are usually the first responders and the ones who are left holding the baby when the paper trail starts.

The poor uniform mule is treated with contempt and utter disrespect by its own people whereas every possible and available resource we have should be made available to equip and support the unarmed police force we were once proud of.

OOoooooooooohhhh I could crush a grape (or a gripe).

shakin

will gardai have to make a report when the spray is deployed? i.e. will it be as big an issue as if a firearm is used? I can forsee many cases going to the ombudsman claiming excessive force. im just wondering is there adequate legislation to protect gardai or are they better to take a beating every now and again to avoid such hassle?

FGR

More than likely the minimum will be much like it is for whenever the baton is used ie - a good long report as soon as possible.

shakin

ForegoneReality wrote: »

More than likely the minimum will be much like it is for whenever the baton is used ie - a good long report as soon as possible.

so everytime the asp is drawn a garda must write a report! is this for the seargant?

djtechnics1210

shakin wrote: »

will gardai have to make a report when the spray is deployed? i.e. will it be as big an issue as if a firearm is used? I can forsee many cases going to the ombudsman claiming excessive force. im just wondering is there adequate legislation to protect gardai or are they better to take a beating every now and again to avoid such hassle?

Atleast the making of reports shows that you have nothing to hide. Cause usually complaints won't be made for a day or two and when ombudsman goes to check they'll see that report was in straight away after asp was used. Can't accuse you of hiding anything then...... which they nearly always do accuse members of.

the locust

shakin wrote: »

so everytime the asp is drawn a garda must write a report! is this for the seargant?

Yup, called accountability. You must account for the force you used. Same with the sprays.
In the PSNI a copy of this report automatically is forwarded to the ombudsman for complete transparency. Apparently.

donvito99

I dont know the name of it but there is an Antidote thingmajig for CS that is used in Britain. Will it be issued to AGS, or is pepper spray not as bad as CS?

met-man

donvito99 wrote: »

I dont know the name of it but there is an Antidote thingmajig for CS that is used in Britain. Will it be issued to AGS, or is pepper spray not as bad as CS?

We've to fill out 'use of force' forms every time a baton or gas is used.

As for the available antidote, its not something thats used widely here. Its water-based, which works with OC but does not work with CS.

Trojan; your story about the county cop doesn't hold water I'm afraid. First of all some forces use OC, most use CS. CS isn't going to be sprayed anywhere without everyone knowing about it. Secondly, I've never heard of cannisters being seized and weighed.....let alone in the circs you outline. If you use your gas, it gets bagged up and retained as evidence. OC and CS are two very different agents.

FGR

met-man wrote: »

Met-man? Metman? Metwoman??

...Reborn?

met-man

ForegoneReality wrote: »

...Reborn?

Something like that....pc grief over the hols actually (PC grief, as in laptop problems, not a constabulary colleague).....am now using a mac as a result. Hopefully normal service can now be resumed

Trojan911

met-man wrote: »

Trojan; your story about the county cop doesn't hold water I'm afraid. First of all some forces use OC, most use CS. CS isn't going to be sprayed anywhere without everyone knowing about it. Secondly, I've never heard of cannisters being seized and weighed.....let alone in the circs you outline. If you use your gas, it gets bagged up and retained as evidence. OC and CS are two very different agents.

Whether my story holds water is neither here nor there, like I said, the story was "flying around". Just like all great mythical Met Grapevine stories.

And yes, canisters were weighed after discharge to calculate how much was used & then bagged up for evidential purposes.

If an accidental discharge happened an IRB had to be completed for accountability etc and your skipper informed.

This was before your time, so policies may have changed since. We did our CS training at DM in the gym and then outside in a sectioned off area of Portman Sq, W1 where we voluntarily experienced the effects of the spray.

metman

Was this back when Bob Cryer was still in custody at Sierra Oscar?

Trojan911

metman wrote: »

Was this back when Bob Cryer was still in custody at Sierra Oscar?

I wouldn't mind Bob's wages in my bank account.......

metman

deadwood wrote: »

Which reminds me.
Where's Metman this weather?:D

I was never on Road Wars. Sky Cops, once or twice.

I have never gassed myself. Colleagues, once or twice....

deadwood

metman wrote: »

I was never on Road Wars. Sky Cops, once or twice.

I have never gassed myself. Colleagues, once or twice....

I've gassed myself AND my colleagues several times with Guinness gas rather than CS!

met-man wrote: »

Something like that....pc grief over the hols actually (PC grief, as in laptop problems, not a constabulary colleague).....am now using a mac as a result. Hopefully normal service can now be resumed

Bloody Political Correctness again, eh?

djtechnics1210

Pints of Guinness from flannerys and food from burger max....... never mind cs gas, the gas the next morning from members is like mustard gas.

metman

Yep, Guinness brand gas definitely falls into the 'noxious substance' category and is nothing if not incapacitating

TheNog

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

Pints of Guinness from flannerys and food from burger max....... never mind cs gas, the gas the next morning from members is like mustard gas.[/img]

ah yes the irish WADs

Weapons of Ass Destruction

djtechnics1210

TheNog wrote: »

ah yes the irish WADs

Weapons of Ass Destruction

AGS greatest weapon against crime the day after retirement/transfer functions etc etc.
No prisoner can withstand the smell in the back of a patrol.... its AGS new initiative to stop people from re offending.

cushtac

donvito99 wrote: »

I dont know the name of it but there is an Antidote thingmajig for CS that is used in Britain. Will it be issued to AGS, or is pepper spray not as bad as CS?

The effectiveness of both CS & OC depends very much on the manufacturer, companies offer both in varying levels of concentration. One advantage OC has over CS is that it is more effective against animals.

donvito99

Chris Piggot is the guy on Road Wars who keeps spraying himself.

cushtac

Have heard that it's looking like PAVA is the front runner for the spray contract.

ScubaDave

Have heard from a friend in the LA intake in templemore, that the KD intake (who will be attested in November 09) will be the first phase 4's to leave templemore with the spray on the belt!

True or not, u decide!

ScubaDave

cushtac wrote: »

Have heard that it's looking like PAVA is the front runner for the spray contract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAVA_spray If your curious!

deadwood

ScubaDave wrote: »

Have heard from a friend in the LA intake in templemore, that the KD intake...

LA

KD

Things have really opened up since my day.

TheNog

ScubaDave wrote: »

Have heard from a friend in the LA intake in templemore, that the KD intake (who will be attested in November 09) will be the first phase 4's to leave templemore with the spray on the belt!

True or not, u decide!

I remember hearing several months ago that students were being trained with the semi rigid cuffs but we still havent been issued or trained on them. Wonder how long will it be before we are trained on the spray

ScubaDave

Hows june 2012 suit?

cushtac

TheNog wrote: »

I remember hearing several months ago that students were being trained with the semi rigid cuffs but we still havent been issued or trained on them. Wonder how long will it be before we are trained on the spray

I have heard that the current idea is that the in-service training will cover both in the same module.

TheNog

ScubaDave wrote: »

Hows june 2012 suit?

Id prefer June 12-20 but I grudgingly accept your predictions

gerire

TheNog wrote: »

I remember hearing several months ago that students were being trained with the semi rigid cuffs but we still havent been issued or trained on them. Wonder how long will it be before we are trained on the spray

The JC's group that came out as phase 4's in August were the 1st ones with the semi rigid cuffs and will be the standard for all newbies coming out now;

Was also told that with the pepper spray being approved recently the training for both will happen together; Id say it will be either us, the kc's, or the kd's who will get trained on it 1st; Bit of a joke tho if you have some people arriving to a scene with this extra level of protection tho?