The Second Coming has happened!!!!!

Yusuf Mirza

We're going to have a fundemental disagreement here. This cannot be consistent with Judeo-Christian revelation, if this person is not Jesus Christ.


Though many Jews have said some fine things about Prophet Jesus (as) definitely the Orthodox religious Jewish peoples are no friends of Jesus Christ I am sure of that. They say such retched things it makes me upset. Look at the Babalonian Talmud. (Not the revised Talmud) mirroring step by step the life of Jesus in an disgusting alternate fashion.


Judeo-Christian? I do believe that the Jews not only disbelieve in Jesus but have written many filthy books against him and Mary. Best to leave the Judeo part out then!:rolleyes:

philologos

Many Jews also served Him to the point of death so that people like me could hear about Him.

noor tkd master

Jakkass wrote: »

How can this person be proven to be the Second Coming?

We're going to have a fundemental disagreement here. This cannot be consistent with Judeo-Christian revelation, if this person is not Jesus Christ.



I'm a lay person. However, the authenticity of the Bible is unparalleled, no other ancient book compares to it.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6068
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html#Bdy06OmL9OF9
http://www.christianity.co.nz/bible-3.htm

Then Sir, leave it to the Theologians and I am honoured to say I am one.
As far as the authenticity of the Bible is concerned and the claim that is
Unparalleled with any other scripture
That indeed is questionable whereas as far as the Holy Qur’an! Is concerned there
Is no scripture which can compare to it, it is unmatched and indeed! the Perfect word of Allah.
Noor

philologos

noor tkd master wrote: »

Then Sir, leave it to the Theologians and I am honoured to say I am one.

That viewpoint is antithetical to me. I am a Christian, this means that I should investigate my beliefs. This isn't reserved to theologians, and I do not have to accept that you are right merely because you studied theology. If people had that mindset, there would be problems in the church.

noor tkd master wrote: »

That indeed is questionable whereas as far as the Holy Qur’an! Is concerned there. Is no scripture which can compare to it, it is unmatched and indeed! the Perfect word of Allah.

The critiques I have read seem to suggest otherwise. I look forward to investigating this case for myself though.

noor tkd master

Jakkass wrote: »

That viewpoint is antithetical to me. I am a Christian, this means that I should investigate my beliefs. This isn't reserved to theologians, and I do not have to accept that you are right merely because you studied theology. If people had that mindset, there would be problems in the church.



The critiques I have read seem to suggest otherwise. I look forward to investigating this case for myself though.

Sir indeed I would expect you to have an opposite view but truth! Is truth! And indeed I would urge to do research on the Holy Qur’an but do justice and study from Islamic sources not just from Christians who write against Islam. And be truthful in your findings.
Please don’t misunderstand me Theologians are not always right without doubt many have been wrong. But I have had the opportunity to study from within and found that everything was not crystal clear as we expected to be.
I went on to study Islamic Theology for six years and looked from within and found also things to be questioned but I found truth and that truth is true Islam “Ahmadiyyat True Islam”.
As far as the critiques are concerned well there will always be critiques but to date they all have fallen short of proven anything against the Holy Qur’an and Islam.
I wish best of luck in your research and I will keep you in my prayers.
Noor

philologos

noor tkd master wrote: »

Sir indeed I would expect you to have an opposite view but truth! Is truth! And indeed I would urge to do research on the Holy Qur’an but do justice and study from Islamic sources not just from Christians who write against Islam. And be truthful in your findings.

Why would I bias myself towards Islamic scholars only? Critique as well as defence will have to be explored.

noor tkd master wrote: »

Please don’t misunderstand me Theologians are not always right without doubt many have been wrong. But I have had the opportunity to study from within and found that everything was not crystal clear as we expected to be.

There is always debate in theology, that also includes in Islamic scholarship. This does not mean that the Bible isn't true.

noor tkd master wrote: »

I went on to study Islamic Theology for six years and looked from within and found also things to be questioned but I found truth and that truth is true Islam “Ahmadiyyat True Islam”.

So both situations were the same, but you chose Islam? Why, I guess is the next question?

noor tkd master wrote: »

As far as the critiques are concerned well there will always be critiques but to date they all have fallen short of proven anything against the Holy Qur’an and Islam.

Ah come on, that isn't intelligent refutation. That's merely just saying "I'm right and you're wrong". I could say the same about you and your views concerning the Bible and Christianity.

noor tkd master wrote: »

I wish best of luck in your research and I will keep you in my prayers.
Noor

When I get time to do said research, it will not be with the explicit intention of converting to Islam, it will be about assessing whether or not the claims made against the Qur'ans authenticity are true.

noor tkd master

Jakkass wrote: »

Why would I bias myself towards Islamic scholars only? Critique as well as defence will have to be explored.

I never said you should be biased to Islamic scholars only. What I meant was study what Islamic scholars have said also and compare but do it with truthfulness and fear of God in your heart.



There is always debate in theology, that also includes in Islamic scholarship. This does not mean that the Bible isn't true.

Without doubt there will always be debate within Theology and indeed that includes Islam!
There indeed has to be elements of truth in the Bible but when we say the Bible is true or perfect then the Bible must stand up to that claim. I.e. if one single verse of the Bible is shown to be missing from the text Greek Text then we can no longer call it perfect. And it is a fact that thousands of errors have been found in all the Greek manuscripts plus the variant readings. We know that scribes wrote thing themselves. So we cannot attribute this to the perfect God who Christians claim God is the author. Can God produce an imperfect Book No!
Whereas the Holy Qur’an that we have today is exactly the same Qur’an that was revelled to the Holy Prophet (saw) you will not! Find any variant readings in the Holy Qur’an in Arabic indeed you will find various interpretations, and that is why as a Muslims we must learn Arabic so that we can understand for ourselves.



So both situations were the same, but you chose Islam? Why, I guess is the next question?

Sir it would take too long to explain why I chose Islam but in gist
· I found the Character of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) perfect
· The Holy Qur’ans teaching are perfect and are in line with natural laws of nature
· After researching the authenticity of the Holy Qur'an against claims of Christian scholars that it was not perfect I found that indeed it was indeed perfect
· I found many prophecies mentioned in the Holy Qur’an which has happened! Therefore proven it to be correct and sent by God.
· The attempts of the Christian scholars to prove it wrong had failed and this is not being bias as I was a Christian at the time! They could make arguments but those arguments could not stand to up to the facts
· There many prophecies about the coming of the Imam Mahdi and Messiah which had been fulfilled it is for this reason I accepted true Islam “Ahmadiyyat”




Ah come on, that isn't intelligent refutation. That's merely just saying "I'm right and you're wrong". I could say the same about you and your views concerning the Bible and Christianity.


Sir it is very simple I was not saying or implying I am right and you are wrong! But the difference is I have seen both sides and I have seen the evidence and indeed I can produce it and I have already done. Perhaps we can meet some time to further our discussion?



When I get time to do said research, it will not be with the explicit intention of converting to Islam, it will be about assessing whether or not the claims made against the Qur'ans authenticity are true.

My aims in these discussions have never been to convert you to Islam. My aim is only to defend the truth and it is only Almighty God who can move the hearts. As I have already said maybe we can meet some time and try to learn form each other.
Noor

noor tkd master

Abu Shakurah wrote: »

You should be careful - there is a group of Ahmadis in Galway who are NOT Muslim but use the Quran and Hadith to fool people. They have some very weird ideas about their leader Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. They believe he was the Messiah, the Mahdi and a Prophet all rolled into one - they also believe he was Mary and 'metaphorically gave birth to himself as the incarnation of the Messiah. The guy was a crackpot.

Sir, you have obviously no knowledge of the doctrine of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat. And without doubt never read any of the Promised Messiah’s Book’s. This language he used was metaphorical. It is a common language used by Muslim Saints. You will also find similar language used in the Holy Qur’an and other religious books. The very language you have used to describe the Promised Messiah (as) shows your lack of Moral’s. As pious persons even if they don’t agree with someone else’s beliefs don’t abuse other people or their beliefs, this is one of the fundamental teachings of Islam.
Some points:
1- It was the Holy Prophet (saw) who said that the future Messiah would be a Prophet and the Holy Prophet (saw) called the future Messiah a Prophet four Times (Sahih Muslim Vol 4 P2254)
2- Also the Holy Prophet (saw) said 'la Mahdi ila Isa ‘there’s no Mahidi but Isa! (Sunan Ibn Maja, Kitab ul Fitan Vol 2 P 1341)
In other words the Messiah and Mahdi will be the same and one person.
3- The Promised Messiah never claimed to be Mary or that he was made Mary! He announced he was named Mary he was given the title Mary ‘meaning he had developed similar pious qualities of Mary. And if you have a problem with that then you will have to reject the teachings of the Holy Qur’an because it is the Holy Qur’an which categorises the believers into two categories. Those like Assiya the wife of Pharaoh and those like Hadrat Mary (as).
“And God sets forth as an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: O my Lord! Build for me in nearness to thee, a mansion in the garden and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong. And Mary daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity; and we breathed into (her body) of our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of his revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)” (Al Qur’an 66.11.12 English Translation Abdullah Yusuf Ali p 1573/74)
Here we are told by Almighty Allah that believers should follow the example of Hadrat Mary and Assiya. So the reason the Promised Messiah was called Mary was because of his obedience to Almighty Allah he was a very devout servant of Almighty Allah (swt).
Do you have a problem with believers being given the title of Mary based on her qualities seen that according to the Holy Qur’an believers should try to set example like her and perhaps develop qualities like her.
It is this sense that the Promised Messiah (as) announced he was called ‘Mary’. One wonders at your lack of understanding of spiritual knowledge! But then it would seem you just lack spirituality.
When the Promised Messiah (as) said that he became as if impregnated with the spirit of Isa Ibn Miriam this again was spiritual metaphorical language which was used by many great Sufi Saints.
Hadrat Jalal ud Din Rumi himself spoke in the same metaphorical language “God confines free spirits into bodies and makes each body pregnant by the spirit. Each of us is a Messiah for the world. (Miftah al Ulum, Daftar No 1, pt 1 p 55)
I can show many more like this from other Saints of Islam, would you now! Brother call Maulana Rumi also a crack pot!
But then all men of God were abused in such manners and even the Prophets of God Hadrat Noah was called ‘possessed’ by the disbelievers, Al Qur’an Ch 23, 26 – Hadrat Hud was accused by the disbelievers that their gods may have seized him with imbecility Al Qur’an ch 11 v 55, and Moses was called a Madman by Pharaoh Al Qur’an Ch 26 v28.
And indeed even our beloved Holy Prophet (saw) could not escape such abuse by the disbelievers who also accused him (nauza a billah) of being possessed Al Qur’an Ch 34 v 47)
But as you know brother all these noble Prophets of God were proven to be right and true to their claims and the disbelievers were proven to be wrong!
So you brother like your past brothers, who you are following in their footsteps are wrong!
Come to true Islam my friend. Accept the Promised Messiah (as)
Nooruddin