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The Second Coming has happened!!!!!
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Yusuf Mirza wrote: »Hay tanx. Actually I must say I enjoy this discussion. Why on earth you call yourself Jackass? Anyway Look. Let me ask you this. If a little girl is born in India to a Hindu family who is poor and ill. She strugles all her life,and never hears the message of Jesus. Then at the age od 8 she dies from a disease. Acording to your faith she will burn in hell for all eternity. That poor innocent little girl who never even had a chance to hear of Jesus will burn in eternal fire becouse Jesus is the only way and only trough him can one attain salvation right? Becouse if there is a repreve or another way into heaven at all besides Jesus then Jesus dieng on the cross is rendered pointless. It is like taking the long difficult trechorous road when you could just go down a short modern highway.
Just tell me if this is the God and sysyem you believe in that would eternally punish that girl in hellfire for something she did not do? If you were to be jailed for life for a crime you did not commit you would cry "fie on you all, this in injustice" yet God who is supposed to be the most just of all is indeed a god who is unjust, unfair, uncaring and sadistic.
There is no other way to heaven than through Christianity. As for whether or not this innocent girl will go to heaven. This isn't written in the Scriptures, however the Bible says before the Day of Judgement will come the Gospel must be preached over all four corners of the world (Matthew 24:14). Christians also believe the Lord to be a just judge, I believe He would make an honourable judgement. I am not allowed to speculate as to where that girl would go, but it would rather be the Lord's decision, and I think he would at least find room to consider her salvation (Romans 10).
I don't believe that there is another way to heaven. I believe that since we have all sinned, we need Jesus to be with us when we make our defence before God. We are told again in the Gospels that if we reject Jesus in public, Jesus will reject you before the Father (Matthew 10:32). It is not my place to discuss the salvation of others, it is up to God. I trust God will make the best decision.
Jesus described the road to salvation as long and treacherous, and that few will find it. I believe and trust in His word.
As for why I call myself Jakkass, I don't know I registered in 2005, it's somewhat humbling though, don't you think?0 -
I find the concept of original sin interesting. It’s interesting that Christians believe in inherited sin from the fall of Adam. The Jews had a covenant with God and they did not require the blood of Jesus to enter heaven.
So they had a separate covenant
"This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words." (Ex 24)
So the Jewish people did not have Jesus but they became free from original sin without him. They had a covenant meaning that God opened for them the door to salvation. The symbol of that covenant was circumcision. So God can forgive sin without the need for Jesus at that time.
"But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation" - Psalms 13:5
Adam sinned and now sin is inherited so whom ever is born of Adam (which is everyone) is carrying his sin. Jesus came to redeem the sinners. So between Adam and Jesus there was no redemption from sin. Yet the Jewish people had been given a covenant in which they could enter heaven while still having the sin of Adam on their souls. So if God could make an exception to them then that defeats the purpose of Jesus dieing on the cross because children of Adam have already achieved salvation without him. That is like being locked out of your house, driving a bulldozer trough the side of your house to get in when your brother is there with the key in his pocket. But that key he says was given to him by his father and its only for him. Yet it’s your house.
In fact they had no concept of original sin.
In Islam we believe that every person is born sinless and it is their actions that determine whether or not they commit sin or acts of righteousness. We believe that Adam did indeed sin but that Allah who is the All Knowing, knew the nature of his creation and was ready to forgive Adam providing that he sincerely repented of his sin. Allah is the most merciful.
[20:122] Then they both ate thereof, so that their shame became manifest to them, and they began to stick the leaves of the garden together over themselves. And Adam observed not the commandment of his Lord, so his life became miserable.
[20:123] Then his Lord chose him for His grace, and turned to him with mercy and guided him.0 -
Humans have a sin nature in Christianity, inherited from Adam, it's discussed in Romans 5:12.
It's irrelevant to me if the Jews don't honour a concept of a sin nature, because the purpose of divine revelation is that more is revealed over time. In Christianity we believe that our teaching is the furthering of Jewish thought. So that doesn't invalidate the concept of a sin nature.
I won't speak of the Qur'an. I have once, but I think it's best that I leave you to defend your own faith, I will defend mine if questioned on Bible verses.
Although I disagree with you strongly, I do believe that we are both seeking God in some way.0 -
"It's irrelevant to me if the Jews don't honour a concept of a sin nature"
But brother it says in the Bible which you believe is the word of God that they had a covenant. Whether or not they believed in sin nature is actually irrelevant. What is relevant is that they entered heaven without the blood of Jesus. Now what you have to do is reconcile the belief in the blood of Christ with the reality that Jews pre Christ could enter heaven without his coming or a need for his coming. Not what they thought or did not or accepted or did not is not the point, but what was the reality of their salvation being ensured by their actions rather then Blood of Christ.0 -
I don't know if all Jews have entered the Kingdom of Heaven. I know that Jesus said from the point when He came to the earth, that believing in Him is the way to salvation and the way to the Father. By the way, Jesus is the Word of God (John 1) and had existed before He was born in Christianity. So we believe there are signs of Jesus in the Tanakh. We believe that God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) was as present in Judaism before Christianity as it is today.0
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Well if you believe in the Bible as the word of God and it says explicitly that the Jews had a covenant, then they indeed had a covenant. What was the covenant? They were to keep the commandments of God and keep his holy days. The circumcision was the symbol of this. What use was the covenant if they knew they would go to eternal hell? Did God bring them out of Egypt via Moses and Aaron and make them a great and blessed nation just to cast them all into a lake of fire one by one as they died. Including Moses and Aaron.
Brother it’s not enough to say that you don’t know. Why don’t you know? Indeed you do know. I am confident that you do know. You know that the Jewish people including, Noah, Moses, Aaron, Solomon, David, Elijah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel ect entered heaven.
If they were carrying sin and were not saved then why do you accept their writings as the word of god? Why accept the Ten Commandments? Was Moses saved by the blood of Jesus? Or any other of the writers of the Old Testament? or the Tanakh?0 -
Adam_____________________________Jesus____________________End of time
************↓______________________↑
*****************Jewish Covenant0 -
That would be an inaccurate timescale as Jesus said He was coming to preach the New Covenant several times in the Gospel.
The way I would illustrate it would be as follows:
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|Patriarchs, Moses, Jewish Prophets (OC)| |Jesus (earthly) & The Apostles (NC)|0 -
Ok no problem. Anyway forget my little chart for a moment and please awnser the posting before the chart.0
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I can't discuss who did or who did not go to heaven. It is forbidden in Christianity (Romans 10).
However, I do believe many Jews before Jesus did yes.
However Jesus was present through the Word of God (John 1). God is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit to us, so we interpret the Old Testament with this in mind. You should look up what a Christophany is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophany
As for the Jews, their method of atonement was through animal sacrifice (read the Torah, and the Christian book of Hebrews). However the sins of the people were too great to be taken away by animal sacrifice. So Jesus came to atone for the sins of mankind including the Gentiles. Of all those who had been there at the time of Christ, right up to everyone today. That's who he died for.0 -
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If Jesus was allways present for all time that is irelevent. It was not enough for him to simply exist was it? He had to come to earth as a man and die. So wheathere he allways existed or not is irelevent to this argument.
The point is that acceptence that "JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS FOR YOU" is the only, only, only way. HE is the truth, the way and the life. He is the only way. NO ONE SHALL ENTER UNTO THE FATHER SAVE TROUGH HIM. Yet people went to heaven before he died on the cross. Now if one cannot enter heaven with sin then does that mean that either;
A) They entered heaven with sin?
or
God forgave them their sin? 0 -
I already told you. The Jews atoned for their sins through animal sacrifice (read the Torah).
However the sins of mankind had become so great that this was no longer possible (i.e Jesus was the only way). So Jesus the Son of God (a part of the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit) atoned of our sin through Crucifixion and to fulfil prophesy (Isaiah 53).
If Jesus did not fulfil Isaiah 53, he was not the Messiah.
God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then yes God did forgive our sins.0 -
Ok so for a time animal sacrifice was sufficient to remove original sin and allow man into the kingdom of God.
Now if the sin was forgiven then how did it become too much? If their sins were cancelled out then there was no sin on them to become too much.
Remember in the animal sacrifice the animals that were killed were mere beasts so it was not their blood that saved but rather the righteous act of the Jews doing the sacrifice. In that case they were saved trough works (sacrificing) and not trough the blood for how is the blood of beasts holy?
Other nations also did animal sacrifice so were they also forgiven their sins? For like the Jews they did not have or need the blood of Jesus as he had not come yet. Rather their work of obedience so surely their sacrifice as good work would also remove their sins.
Im going for Friday congregational prayer now at the mosque so when I get back I look forward to hearing your answer. Btw what’s your real name?0 -
Bother I hope inshallah you will answer my question soon.0
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Yusuf Mirza wrote: »Ok so for a time animal sacrifice was sufficient to remove original sin and allow man into the kingdom of God.
For a period of time yes. However the Lord tells us through the prophet Hosea, "I desire mercy not sacrifice" (Hosea 6:6). Jesus is the way.
Deuteronomy 18:18 tells us that God would rise up a prophet from amongst His own people (the Jews), and that there would be punishment for those who did not follow Him.
The Muslims say this is about the Prophet Muhammad. However Muhammad was not Jewish so this could not possibly refer to him.Yusuf Mirza wrote: »Remember in the animal sacrifice the animals that were killed were mere beasts so it was not their blood that saved but rather the righteous act of the Jews doing the sacrifice. In that case they were saved trough works (sacrificing) and not trough the blood for how is the blood of beasts holy?
And. Are we not saved through the righteous act of Jesus Christ?Yusuf Mirza wrote: »Other nations also did animal sacrifice so were they also forgiven their sins? For like the Jews they did not have or need the blood of Jesus as he had not come yet. Rather their work of obedience so surely their sacrifice as good work would also remove their sins.
The question is who did they sacrifice to, and which God did they follow? If the sacrifice were in the intention of atoning for their sins, and if they were intended to the God as revealed to the Israelites I don't see why their sins could not be forgiven.
The Jews did need to salvation of Jesus because they had fallen so far away from God that they could not atone for all their sins by sacrifice. So yes they need the salvation of Jesus like everyone else.
Also if Jesus had not been crucified, He would not have been the Messiah. The Messiah must be ridiculed and put to death. (Isaiah 53)
God had intended to forgive mankind this way, and had revealed it 600 years before Jesus was born into the world into human flesh.Yusuf Mirza wrote: »Im going for Friday congregational prayer now at the mosque so when I get back I look forward to hearing your answer. Btw what’s your real name?
My name's Gareth.0 -
Interesting.
Ok let ne for a moment move to a related point please, though I want to come back to this shortly.
Jesus forgave sins!!!
According to the New Testament Jesus forgave sins during his ministry before the events of the crucifixion.
Mark 2:5 says;
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, “Son, thy sins be forgiven thee”
Now if Jesus had the power to forgive sins himself then surely he could have forgiven everyone and there would be no need death on the cross.
Mark 10;
“ But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins”0 -
Jesus had the power to forgive sins only because He would atone for them on the cross at a later stage. He liberated us from the slavery of sin, so that we could start anew, and to put ourselves right with God in the final days. That's like saying how can Jesus forgive our sins now? Do you think God is within time or timeless?
I've already told you Jesus had to be crucified to fulfil the Jewish prophesies about the Messiah. Were Jesus not put to death He could not have been the Messiah.0 -
Do you think God is within time or timeless?
Yes God is timeless. So you are telling me that Jesus dieing on the cross removed sin from people in the past that lived and died before him as well as at his present time and in the future?
The people in Hell were asked to believe in Jesus and they said yes and they were taken out and went to heaven? What scripture do you get this from please!0 -
Yusuf Mirza wrote: »Do you think God is within time or timeless?
Yes God is timeless. So you are telling me that Jesus dieing on the cross removed sin from people in the past that lived and died before him as well as at his present time and in the future?
They couldn't possibly have believed in it before the people witnessed it. So, no. The previous system was through animal sacrifice.
What I meant by timeless was if Jesus forgave someone on earth before He was crucified. It would still be the Crucifixion that atoned for their sin. He took on our sins, and atoned for them.Yusuf Mirza wrote:The people in Hell were asked to believe in Jesus and they said yes and they were taken out and went to heaven? What scripture do you get this from please!
I didn't say that at all. If you are in hell it is too late, you have already had a chance to live your life the way that God had commanded.
I've already explained how the Jewish people atoned for their sins through animal sacrifice so let's not go in circles.0 -
Well so far we have seen how
A) People before Jesus’s advent received salvation without the blood of the cross.
And During the lifetime of Jesus people received salvation without the blood of the cross.
Jackass - However, I do believe many Jews before Jesus did (receive salvation) yes.
Jackass - Jesus had the power to forgive sins (pre crucifiction)
Now you have readily agreed that many Jews received salvation from animal sacrifice, meaning a good work i.e. keeping the commandments, this being one.
Now lets take a step back for a moment. Sin is inherited. It is passed down from Adam. From father to son and mother to son right. Now if we then have a man and a woman both involved in the sacrifice and both of them receive salvation then that means that they are then officially sinless correct? Now if they then get married and have a child then, as sin is inherited then that means that that child is now sinless. And if that child becomes a man and married another sinless woman then their children shall be sinless and so on and so forth.
Therefore that means that Jesus was not the first sinless man. In fact he would be one of many sinless people walking around Jerusalem at his time. Now these people would not then need to accept Jesus on the cross because they are already sinless. They are free from sin and have overcome sin. So that is respectfully I say this, quite embarrassing for Jesus then.0 -
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So anyway what is your reply to my last post then Gareth.0
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The basic difference between what is called Orthodox Islam and The Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam is the issue of Jesus (as). Did he go up to heaven? Will he come down?
We both agree that in the New Testament Jesus (as) says that "you shall not see me again until you say blessed is he that comes in the name if the lord"
He told people about a great prophet that would come. He said "There are many things that I have to say unto you but you are not ready. But when he comes..... Then he goes on to explain that this person shall be the Judge, the leader, the councillor, all the things that Prophet Muhammad (saw) fulfilled in his coming. He also told the people that "the corner stone shall be taken from this temple and given to another nation" Now of course the Christians believe it to be them. But Moses on his deathbed clearly said that a great prophet would come like unto him. So that means a Law bearing Prophet. Which of course was not Isa (as) but Razool Allah (saw)
Now Moses also said that a Messiah would come to the Jewish people and restore their former glory. Though he meant spiritually the Jews were shore that it would be militarily and that he would restore their material kingdom. But Jesus came to restore the kingdom of God. The Jews became discussed because their heart had long since soured to the live of God.
When Elijah came he told them that the Messiah would come soon. He told them that he would also come before the son of David. So the Jews waited. Waited for his advent as a harbinger of the Messianic seal.
But he never came. When Jesus laid claim that he was that messiah they scoffed and laughed. Where was his sword? His white horse? Where was Elijah? This continued to the point when even the apostle’s f Isa came to him and enquired. “Master they do say that Elijah shall come also”
Then Jesus stood up, pointed to Hazret Yahyah and said “he has come in the power and spirit of Elijah” The people were shocked. How stupid did he take them to be? To say that this man was Elijah? Has they the same mother? The same father? Had Yahyah descended on a golden chariot? Yet we Muslims know and believe that this happened and that indeed the prophecies about Elijah were actually about one who would come in the future who would resemble Elijah and indeed would be the second Elijah.
Anyway so came the Advent of the Holy King Muhammad Seal of the Prophets. The greatest man that ever lived. As if Allah himself has set foot on the earth. He turned every kind of darkness into every kind of light. He turned the people who had become beasts into saints such as the world has never seen before. He was the last prophet. His was the final book. “Today have we perfected your religion for you and called it Islam” When he left this world. He left the Muslims with the promise that one day, when they needed him most that Allah would send Isa (as) to restore them to their former glory. He grace signs as to when to expect the Messiah.
Beware; there will be no prophet or messenger between Jesus, the son of Mary, and me. Remember, he shall be my Caliph after me to my people. Remember, he will vanquish Anti-Christ, break the Cross (with argument), abolish the taking of Jizya (tax collected from defeated people), as there would no longer be any war. Remember, whoever meets him should convey my greetings to him.
Tabrani al-Ausat was-Saghir
6. Al-Baqarah, 190
So the question is who is this Isa? Is it the same isa whome is described in the Qur’an as “Bani Israeli” Prophet to Israel? Or is it possible that it may be one who shall arise from among the ummah who shall be to the Muslimsas Isa was to the Jews?
http://www.alislam.org/library/claim.html0 -
Petty squabbling... How can peace come to those who will not show it to one another.
you sound like two children fighting over who has the best daddy
We, humankind, have the capacity to right all wrongs that have been done by our own hand... do we or do we not? We are capable of working together toward the cessation of all violence and the creation of a heaven on earth... are we or are we not?
Being so capable, gifted with such potential, how can we deserve a heavenly afterlife if we do not prove ourselves worthy of the notion.
Free will...
Do you think god is so definable as to be restricted to any conception of either him or his will that man can concieve of? Do you honestly believe that his message could be bound by words into a book? If you truely seek to know god all that you need to do is to listen with the hearing of your own essence, to see through the eyes of your own soul- these are gifts that are calloused by the submission to any faith that claims to be the sole source of the ultimate thruth and the sole source of salvation amongst they who lead pious lives amongst us.
Free yourselves from definition and unbind your god from the infantile constaints of religion. don't be so egoistic to believe that we could cause god either grief or happiness... listen to each other and we will find the solution to our woes for therein originate our woes, in ourselves and each other. Ask not of another to change unless you are willing to do so yourself. Preach not unless you are willing to recieve preach in return, with respect and humility. perhaps if then might yee see the product of your bickering0 -
i just came across this article on islam-qa.com about the ahmadiyya sect i am not too sure about its ISLAMIC PATHIntellectual and ideological roots"
and i quote
"The Qadianis believe that Allaah fasts, prays, sleeps, wakes up, writes, makes mistakes and has intercourse – exalted be Allaah far above all that they say.
The Qadiani believes that his god is English because he speaks to him in English.
The Qadianis believe that Prophethood did not end with Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but that it is ongoing, and that Allaah sends a messenger when there is a need, and that Ghulam Ahmad is the best of all the Prophets.
They believe that Jibreel used to come down to Ghulam Ahmad and that he used to bring revelation to him, and that his inspirations are like the Qur’aan.
They say that there is no Qur’aan other than what the “Promised Messiah” (Ghulam Ahmad) brought, and no hadeeth except what is in accordance with his teachings, and no Prophet except under the leadership of Ghulam Ahmad.
They believe that their book was revealed. Its name is al-Kitaab al-Mubeen and it is different from the Holy Qur’aan.
They believe that they are followers of a new and independent religion and an independent Sharee’ah, and that the friends of Ghulam are like the Sahaabah.
They believe that Qadian is like Madeenah and Makkah, if not better than them, and that its land is sacred. It is their Qiblah and the place they make hajj to.
In their view every Muslim is a Kaafir unless he becomes a Qadiani, and everyone who married a non-Qadiani is also a kaafir.
They allow alcohol, opium, drugs and intoxicants.
:eek::eek::eek::eek:0 -
Hahahaa yah right. I can safely say that the person who wrote that was ptobably taking opiom and alcahol himself at the time lol. What a crok of sh*t. This coming from the kind of people who blow up other Mosqes, decapitate people for being educated and stop little girls from going to school...
100% rubish
We are true devout Muslims who follow Quran and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw)0 -
<H3 class="post-title entry-title">
A. Abdul Aziz, Sri Lanka
The subject of the Second Coming of Jesus is so important not only to the Christians but for the Muslims as well. For the benefit of the readers, as a Muslim, I need to expose some truths from the vary sayings of the Holy Bible so that they should know what really happened. It is evident from the Holy Bible that the moving prayers of Jesus on the night before the day of crucifixion (Matt 26:39; Luke 22:42; Mark 14:36; Matt 27:46) had been the main source for his escape from the accursed death on the cross. For it is utterly unbelievable that such earnest prayers from no less a personage than Jesus Christ should go unanswered.
It is also evident from the Bible that Jesus did not die on the cross, but was taken down in a state of unconsciousness and had lived afterward to complete his mission eventually to die a natural death. After his escape from the death on the cross, he was in his body of clay (John 20:15; Luke 24:39-43) and it is incorrect to say that a vapor cloud lifted him up to heaven.
No cloud has the power to raise a body of clay; no mortal can soar to heaven. To say that Jesus ascended to heaven with his mortal body is absolutely contrary to the sayings of Jesus, for he said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man" (John 3:13). It is also clear from the New Testament that the accounts of both Mathew and John support this theory very strongly that Jesus did not ascend to heaven but migrated to another country, whilst both (Mark and Luke) are silent regarding the ascension.
Jesus, peace be on him, was not sent as a Universal Guide. Jesus was the Messiah of the Israelites, and he proclaimed in clear-cut words: "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 15:24). The term "lost" can be taken in two ways, literal and metaphorical. It can therefore be applied to the lost tribes metaphorically, but literally as well. For centuries, they had been away from the Holy Land. No wonder, Jesus enjoined his disciples to "Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:6). Jesus even foretold that he would go in search of those who were lost from the Israelites and would find them.
He says "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice" (John 10:16). As, according to his aforesaid statement he was sent to the Israelites only, these other sheep, not belonging to the Palestinian Jews therefore were from the lost ten tribes dispersed in other countries. A similar conclusion can be drawn from another saying of Jesus: "A prophet is not without honor save in his own country" (Matt 13:57).
To believe, therefore, that Jesus did not go to another country where he was honored, is tantamount to believing that he passed away without honor. His saying, that his case, in view of the plot of his enemies to destroy him, would be similar to the case of the prophet Jonah, also reveals that as Jonah was honored by his people after he had been in the belly of the whale, likewise Jesus would be honored by the lost sheep of the House of Israel after he had been in the heart of the earth, i.e. hewn chamber serving for a tomb. And so it happened. He went to other countries where the lost sheep lived and was hallowed by them. The story of the wise men from the East who visited Palestine at the birth of Jesus (who evidently were Israelites, because no nation besides them expected the appearance of the Messiah and because of their saying, "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?") contained a hint that Jesus would be honored by those sheep who were living in the Eastern countries.
Jesus also mentioned a parable which hinted at the same. He said: "What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountain, and go in search of the one that went astray?. And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray" (Matt 18:12,13).
If it is true what this parable contains, if it is true that Jesus was a good shepherd, if it is true that the ten tribes of Israel were lost and were scattered abroad by foreign powers as divine punishment for their turning away from the right path, and if it is true that he was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, then it was, undoubtedly, his foremost duty to go in search of these lost sheep of the House of Israel and rejoice after finding them.
Jesus, as we believe, a true prophet and beloved of God, could not neglect the duty imposed upon him by God. When he saw that the Palestinian Jews were not going to accept him, he left the country and went in search of the lost sheep, who were not of the fold of the Palestinian Jews. Historical investigations reveal to us that the people of Kashmir, India, Afghanistan and the surrounding provinces represent the ten lost tribes of Israel. Therefore Jesus must have gone to that part of the world.
The names of number of towns and cities of Afghanistan and Kashmir are identically the same as those of ancient Syria. For example, the names of Kabul, Himis, Gilgit, Laddakh, Leh, Suro, Sukat may be compared with Kabul, Hams, Golgotha, Laddak, Lehi, Shur and Succoth of ancient Syria. This constitutes one of the strongest proofs of the fact that the ancestors of the people of Afghanistan, Kashmir and the adjoining provinces came from ancient Syria, representing the lost tribes of Israel.
Historical records further reveal that Jesus came to India by way of Persia and Afghanistan so that he might accomplish his supreme task of delivering his message to people of that country. In short, Jesus came to the Punjab by way of Afghanistan and after paying visits to Benares, Nepal and Tibet, finally arrived in Kashmir and where he settled.
Holy Quran says: "And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water". (23:50) According to Arabic Lexicons, the description of a place mentioned in this verse fully fits on the valley of Kashmir where a part of the ten tribes of Israel had settled. The people of Kashmir to this day bearing a striking resemblance to the children of Israel (Bani Israel). Jesus was welcomed and accepted by the Jewish tribes of the diaspora among whom he became known as Yus Asaf, the Prince Prophet.
Jesus spent his last years in Kashmir. He lived to the ripe old age of over 120 years and when he died he was buried in the Khanyar Street in Srinagar, Kashmir. His tomb is still preserved and is a place of pilgrimage.
The dead never return from their otherworldly abode. Once departed, none has ever paid a second visit to begin mixing with the living. Neither has God brought back any dwellers of the past. Those who literally wait the return of Jesus may continue to do so till eternity. He will never come. The Holy Bible also lends support to the view that Jesus himself would not return to this world, in the verses which refer to the second coming of Elijah. According to II Kings (2:11) Elijah ascended to heaven in a chariot drawn by horses and the Jews were expecting his physical return to earth which would precede the coming of the Messiah promised to them. However Elijah never appeared in the manner they expected but instead the prophecy was fulfilled in John the Baptist who came in the power and spirit of Elijah.
The Holy Bible says: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them? Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist". (Matt 17:10 - 13)
In these verses Jesus refers to the second coming of Elijah which actually took place in the person of John. The Jews did not recognize John as the second coming of Elijah, and thus persecuted him. Jesus says plainly that likewise he must suffer, i.e. his second coming would be not in his own person, but in the person of someone else. Jesus also said: "For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord' (Matt 23:39). Here Jesus is telling his disciples in plain language that they shall be able to recognize him only when they shall realize that someone else, rather than he, the Jesus of history, will come and that he will come in Jesus' name.
Moreover, the second manifestation of the advent of Jesus, will not be understood by those who claim to his followers until they are able to recognize the spiritual impact of his teachings, that the one who will come, will come only in his name, having similar characteristics and bearing the same Messianic qualities, just as John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah.
Moreover, in the New Testament, we find remarkable signs being mentioned by Jesus about his second coming. What comes readily is Jesus' reference to the place, the rapidity with which the message will be conveyed, the political instability that will prevail and the abnormality of natural phenomena. We have witnessed that all the signs mentioned by Jesus have been fulfilled.
The Bible also says, 'Take heed that no man deceives you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many' (Matt 24:4,5). If any reason, Jesus was scheduled to descend in all glory in his flesh and blood, as a physical entity, escorted by an angelic host, then how could anyone be possibly deceived? There would then be no room for deception. It would have been as plain as daylight and many would then be witnesses of his miraculous descent, since no one is mentioned, in any of the four canonical gospels, as having witnessed his physical ascent. Here, the key to note is, 'many shall come in my name', that is to say, that his second advent will be such, that there would be room for deception by false claimants.
Therefore, what was meant by Jesus' second coming was that someone having his attributes would be born and the descent of Jesus, peace be on him, not to be in his physical person but that a Messiah was to come in his image and spirit.
www.alislam.org
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The only coming that is happening is when a moderator close this ridiculous thread! Quit bickering like a pack of geese! Learn to agree to disagree and be humble about it. Religious argument rarely ever results in an agreement. Christianity and Islam are two different religions with different views on things. I accept neither. Just be tolerant and put aside your differences and be kind. Thank you.0
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The only coming that is happening is when a moderator close this ridiculous thread! Quit bickering like a pack of geese! Learn to agree to disagree and be humble about it. Religious argument rarely ever results in an agreement. Christianity and Islam are two different religions with different views on things. I accept neither. Just be tolerant and put aside your differences and be kind. Thank you.
If you don't like interfaith dialogue, go somewhere else. When myself and Yusif were discussing we have only been civil. I will forever disagree with him about the Second Coming involving someone else because there is no Biblical basis for it. Our scriptures warn us about false Messiahs.
However, myself and Yusif have managed to keep a respectful tone, and I think we have managed to remain considerably more humble in our discourse than many atheists and Christians do when discussing with eachother.
So enough of this "ignore our differences" nonsense. It's far more beneficial to explore them. It's been about a year since I discussed with him now, but I remember this discussion as being one of my more positive ones.0 -
I have to confess that this thread doesn't interest me all that much, but I noticed this:Deuteronomy 18:18 tells us that God would rise up a prophet from amongst His own people (the Jews), and that there would be punishment for those who did not follow Him.
The Muslims say this is about the Prophet Muhammad. However Muhammad was not Jewish so this could not possibly refer to him.
I don't know what version of the bible you're using but "a prophet from among His (ie God's) own people" is not the wording I have in my copies of the bible. The phrase used in Deut 18:18 is "from among their (Moses's people) brethren". And with this wording it could apply as much to Muhammad as to Jesus, peace be upon them.
Jesus pbuh is 'brethren' to Moses's people because they have ancestors who were brothers (the common ancestor is Jacob, whose son Levi is Moses's ancestor and whose other son Judah is Jesus's ancestor according to the family tree in the NT**.
However, Muhammad pbuh is also brethren to Moses's (pbuh) people in exactly the same way ie they share a common ancestor and they also have ancestors who were brothers (the CA is Abraham and the brothers are Ishmael and Isaac peace and blessings on them all).
Also, when God says He will raise up a prophet "like unto thee (Moses)" in what way was Jesus like Moses (pbut)?.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh, born and died in the usual way, first rejected then accepted by his people and was a spiritual and temporal leader of the community, receiver of revelation, married and had children......all this exactly like Moses pbuh. Whereas Jesus pbuh.....? miraculous birth, mysterious 'death', celibate, short ministry - and according to Christians, Son of God or actually God made man - very different from Moses pbuh.
I hope I haven't broken any rules by going off track but this discussion seemed to be fairly wide ranging anyway.
**If we consider the immaculate conception the very notion of a human ancestor is wrong but I suppose that's a whole nother discussion. Also note that Moses is not strictly speaking a Jew (from the tribe of Judah) he is a Levite).0 -
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I don't know what version of the bible you're using but "a prophet from among His (ie God's) own people" is not the wording I have in my copies of the bible. The phrase used in Deut 18:18 is "from among their (Moses's people) brethren". And with this wording it could apply as much to Muhammad as to Jesus, peace be upon them.
Muhammad isn't an Israelite. In the Torah references to "brethren" and "brothers" generally refer to the fellow Israelites. Moses was speaking to the Israelites therefore it would be most prudent when reading such Scriptures to note this.Jesus pbuh is 'brethren' to Moses's people because they have ancestors who were brothers (the common ancestor is Jacob, whose son Levi is Moses's ancestor and whose other son Judah is Jesus's ancestor according to the family tree in the NT**.
Moses was with people from all tribes of Israel when leading them back to the Promised Land. This doesn't just include the Levites. Moses would have to have been only talking to the Levites for that to be valid. Since we have no evidence of this, and plenty to the contrary in other passages it is prudent to note that Moses is speaking of the Israelite people, not of a particular tribe.However, Muhammad pbuh is also brethren to Moses's (pbuh) people in exactly the same way ie they share a common ancestor and they also have ancestors who were brothers (the CA is Abraham and the brothers are Ishmael and Isaac peace and blessings on them all).
We all share a common ancestor if we go back far enough. The first is Adam, the second is Noah, however one has to be careful about context when reading the Bible.Also, when God says He will raise up a prophet "like unto thee (Moses)" in what way was Jesus like Moses (pbut)?.
Rather simple. Both brought a covenant from God to people. Moses brought the Old Covenant, Jesus Christ brought the New Covenant and grace to us through His blood.Prophet Muhammad pbuh, born and died in the usual way, first rejected then accepted by his people and was a spiritual and temporal leader of the community, receiver of revelation, married and had children......all this exactly like Moses pbuh. Whereas Jesus pbuh.....? miraculous birth, mysterious 'death', celibate, short ministry - and according to Christians, Son of God or actually God made man - very different from Moses pbuh.
It's rather simple. For humans to be able to relate to God best, God deemed it best that He would humble Himself into human form. Pretty much in the same way I couldn't relate to an animal unless I became an animal.
That is my main issue with Islam. It seems to desecrate who Jesus Christ was and is, and is to come. God relating to us through human flesh makes a lot of sense when one considers it. God seems so far beyond us, but to think that the Son of God, a part of the Holy Trinity lived among us is amazing.
God knows human struggles, and trials. God knows pain. God knows all of these things intimately as He lived in this world. That's what I love about Christianity.
What is awesome about Jesus as God incarnate is that God thought we were worth humbling Himself for.Philippians 2:1 wrote:So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The reason that Jesus was so incredible was because He was willing to go to the very end for us.
He died so that we might be born again through His conquering of the grave. His Resurrection:Romans 6:1-11 wrote:What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.I hope I haven't broken any rules by going off track but this discussion seemed to be fairly wide ranging anyway.
Don't worry about offending me. I am okay with your objections. In fact I'm glad that I have had a chance to share with you about what I believe, and I am glad that I can more fully understand Islam.
I thank God for all respectful discussion, especially about Him.**If we consider the immaculate conception the very notion of a human ancestor is wrong but I suppose that's a whole nother discussion. Also note that Moses is not strictly speaking a Jew (from the tribe of Judah) he is a Levite).
Yes, Jew was incorrect. I should have said Israelite.0
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