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Go-Ahead for New Ross Bypass

13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭ Dilbert75


    I'm a bit puzzled where this upgrade of the New Ross to Waterford road is - they resurfaced a few bits that were subsiding but, other than the links to the Waterford bypass, that seems to be about it. Along with the M50, its a perfect example of a road that was inadequate shortly after it was built, given that it was single-carriageway.

    Its imperative that whatever bridge is built is future-proofed to a reasonable extent - dual-carriageway seems a reasonable spec. The marginal cost over single-carriageway is not going to be proportional to the capacity. Given the length of time its likely to take to get going, the chances are that the traffic levels will have risen quite a bit before it opens.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    im a bit puzzled too about the comments on the alleged up grading of this route (beyond New Ross especially).Admittedly the traffic patterns are not constant as there are lulls between ferries, but this road can be highly dangerous with demonic late ferry-bound traffic driving too fast or fed-up tired ex-ferry traffic hurrying unduly towards their destination. This road is a LOT beter than it used to be but still needs a LOT more upgrading to make it worthy of its Euroroute epithet


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭✭✭ Cian R


    tbh i think that 2+2 would be ideal for this bridge


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭ Road-Hog


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    I heard one billion mentioned before...

    I thought it was way too much at first, but think about it:

    Consider that the Waterford Bypass costed 600 million (half of which you can attribute to the bridge), and has a much shorter bridge (the N.R bypass bridge is over three times longer than the Waterford bypass). If the N.R is built to nearly the same spec as the W.B bridge and is three times its length, the cost will mostly likely increase in nearly the same ratio.

    One billion is an unacceptable amount to spend on a single bypass that will only carry around 10,000 vehicles.

    One billion would pay for the entire M20! It would pay for the SRR upgrades and Newlands Cross and could probably get most of the money for the N11 scheme in there too...

    If the New Ross bypass had a 40,000 AADT, yes, go for the bridge. But I'm sorry a 52,000 AADT capacity bridge that will carry less than 10,000 on many days. Insanity... !!!!

    I've also heard a 350 million euro figure mentioned before. Perhaps, in that case, it isn't so questionable. But if it does turn about to be one billion, you can forget about it! ;)


    Blunt-Guy

    I think you have a few incorrect facts there:

    1. Waterford Bypass Construction cost is circa €250million (excluding land, engineering, legal fees etc), of which the NRA are putting up 60% spread over the last 3 years which is approximately €50million per year, the remaining 40% is being put up by the Concessionaire Co. who will own, operate and maintain the road for 30 years from date of commencement of construction i.e. April 2006 to April 2036. The €600m you quote is what it is estimated the project would cost if the NRA were to fund build operate and maintain the entire 18km by pass for 30 years.

    2. Waterford bridge is something like 450m from abutment to abutment, New Ross is something like 900m so its twice the length not 3 times

    3. The New Ross bypass is going to be lumped together with the Enniscorthy bypass and the stretch from Clough to Enniscorthy which also includes bypasses of Camolin and Ferns making the whole contract soemthing like 48kms. It is also intended to procure the project as a PPP with 'Shadow tolling', meaning the NRA will like the Waterford bypasss only fund a percentage of the construction costs, the motorist will not pay any direct tolls to the private concessionaire company, these will be paid by the NRA/Government based on traffic counts.

    4. It is currently anticipated that the AADT for the Waterford bypass will be something like 10,000 intially, so you could argue that it should also only be a single carriageway bridge.

    5. A cost of 1 Billion euro for the 13km of dual carriageway including the 'Mega Bridge' would seem completely excessive, even for the 3 sections mentinoed above (i.e. 48km) it would seem excessive, especially when the 110km Waterford to Kilcullen motorway is estimated to be in the region of €1 billion. On its own the 13km New Ross Bypass should not cost more thatn €200 million if even that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 mysterious


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    Blunt-Guy

    I think you have a few incorrect facts there:

    1. Waterford Bypass Construction cost is circa €250million (excluding land, engineering, legal fees etc), of which the NRA are putting up 60% spread over the last 3 years which is approximately €50million per year, the remaining 40% is being put up by the Concessionaire Co. who will own, operate and maintain the road for 30 years from date of commencement of construction i.e. April 2006 to April 2036. The €600m you quote is what it is estimated the project would cost if the NRA were to fund build operate and maintain the entire 18km by pass for 30 years.

    2. Waterford bridge is something like 450m from abutment to abutment, New Ross is something like 900m so its twice the length not 3 times

    3. The New Ross bypass is going to be lumped together with the Enniscorthy bypass and the stretch from Clough to Enniscorthy which also includes bypasses of Camolin and Ferns making the whole contract soemthing like 48kms. It is also intended to procure the project as a PPP with 'Shadow tolling', meaning the NRA will like the Waterford bypasss only fund a percentage of the construction costs, the motorist will not pay any direct tolls to the private concessionaire company, these will be paid by the NRA/Government based on traffic counts.

    4. It is currently anticipated that the AADT for the Waterford bypass will be something like 10,000 intially, so you could argue that it should also only be a single carriageway bridge.

    5. A cost of 1 Billion euro for the 13km of dual carriageway including the 'Mega Bridge' would seem completely excessive, even for the 3 sections mentinoed above (i.e. 48km) it would seem excessive, especially when the 110km Waterford to Kilcullen motorway is estimated to be in the region of €1 billion. On its own the 13km New Ross Bypass should not cost more thatn €200 million if even that.


    No disrepect to your points,

    But are you from New Ross. It's bloody excessive and thats the reality, especially given the current need of FAR more important schemes which should start before this over hyped bypass..........


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    Blunt-Guy

    I think you have a few incorrect facts there:

    1. Waterford Bypass Construction cost is circa €250million (excluding land, engineering, legal fees etc), of which the NRA are putting up 60% spread over the last 3 years which is approximately €50million per year, the remaining 40% is being put up by the Concessionaire Co. who will own, operate and maintain the road for 30 years from date of commencement of construction i.e. April 2006 to April 2036. The €600m you quote is what it is estimated the project would cost if the NRA were to fund build operate and maintain the entire 18km by pass for 30 years.

    I am aware of this. But I can't compare the cost the Waterford Bypass is costing as PPP to the New Ross bypass, when I have know PPP figures available. I'm just using the actual costs.
    2. Waterford bridge is something like 450m from abutment to abutment, New Ross is something like 900m so its twice the length not 3 times

    I think 900m is just the total length of the main spans... I don't think the abutments have been taken into account. Unless you can proof me wrong...
    4. It is currently anticipated that the AADT for the Waterford bypass will be something like 10,000 intially, so you could argue that it should also only be a single carriageway bridge.

    Where did you hear this? :confused:

    The AADT figures given in the Waterford Bypass EIS are well over 20,000 in most cases.
    5. A cost of 1 Billion euro for the 13km of dual carriageway including the 'Mega Bridge' would seem completely excessive, even for the 3 sections mentinoed above (i.e. 48km) it would seem excessive, especially when the 110km Waterford to Kilcullen motorway is estimated to be in the region of €1 billion. On its own the 13km New Ross Bypass should not cost more than €200 million if even that.

    What are you basing this on?

    If the Waterford Bypass costed 600 million (without PPP) or as it is now: nearly 2 billion (with PPP over 30 years), what on Earth makes you think that the New Ross bypass won't cost over 200 million (whichever route is taken with regard to funding)?

    The bridge could be 200 million by itself, possibly even more...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭ Road-Hog


    mysterious wrote: »
    No disrepect to your points,

    But are you from New Ross. It's bloody excessive and thats the reality, especially given the current need of FAR more important schemes which should start before this over hyped bypass..........

    Sorry to dissapoint you but I'm not from New Ross. Have you considered forming a 'Scrap New Ross Bypass' protest group, you could support it with petitions, an email campaign and organise a march to firstly Tramore House Regional Design Office followed by the head NRA office at St Martins House on Waterloo road.

    I think it will take more than a couple of anonymous internet posters such as yourself and bluntguy to change the decision of the NRA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    Sorry to dissapoint you but I'm not from New Ross. Have you considered forming a 'Scrap New Ross Bypass' protest group, you could support it with petitions, an email campaign and organise a march to firstly Tramore House Regional Design Office followed by the head NRA office at St Martins House on Waterloo road.

    I think it will take more than a couple of anonymous internet posters such as yourself and bluntguy to change the decision of the NRA.

    It's not about scrapping the New Ross bypass. It just seems that - even for me (a road enthusiast) - this project is too excessive.

    We'll know for sure when more concrete facts and figures are available, but all we can do at the moment is guess.

    200 million is hopelessly optimistic I'm afraid. That is unless the current proposal is revised and scaled down to fit the needs of the actual route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 Lennoxschips


    but this road can be highly dangerous with demonic late ferry-bound traffic driving too fast or fed-up tired ex-ferry traffic hurrying unduly towards their destination

    So enforce the rules of the road. Dangerous driving is no excuse for building a dual carriageway.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,784 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    So enforce the rules of the road. Dangerous driving is no excuse for building a dual carriageway.

    Along poor sections of road it is extremely difficult to maintain speed traps or observe for insane overtaking, etc - the space isn't there.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    So enforce the rules of the road. Dangerous driving is no excuse for building a dual carriageway.

    I cant Im not a Gard and anyhow many of these cars are UK registered or Eastern european and practically immune to the law


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 Lennoxschips


    MYOB wrote: »
    Along poor sections of road it is extremely difficult to maintain speed traps or observe for insane overtaking, etc - the space isn't there.

    There aren't that many sections of poor road left, most of it is very wide and straight.

    And even so, it's very easy to put a speed trap on a small road.
    I cant Im not a Gard and anyhow many of these cars are UK registered or Eastern european and practically immune to the law

    The Guards can fine anybody they like.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    There aren't that many sections of poor road left, most of it is very wide and straight.

    And even so, it's very easy to put a speed trap on a small road.



    The Guards can fine anybody they like.

    if you say:rolleyes: so but getting them to PAY is another matter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 invincibleirish


    corktina wrote: »
    I cant Im not a Gard and anyhow many of these cars are UK registered or Eastern european and practically immune to the law

    So you're saying that these sinister law breaking 'UK registered or Eastern european' cars/people won't break the law if a DC is built to Rosslare? Interesting logic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    no..i said the road is quite dangerous and wqould be safer as a dual carriageway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭✭✭ Cian R


    tbh it wouldnt be worth building it as single carriageway


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    The Guards can fine anybody they like.

    Only a court can legally fine anyone


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 mysterious


    Cian R wrote: »
    tbh it wouldnt be worth building it as single carriageway

    It's fine DC.

    Back when the Nenagh S2 bypass was built it was outdated once opened, as the government wanted to build motorways to the cities.....

    Tbh, I don't understand why in this country we build these spanking new S2 roads will all motorway charististics, such as flyovers, slipss and interchanges with the road been single lane, I really don't get it.

    They could just blow it up as DC, if they are going to go to all the bother of making the road to such a high spec. Learn from the past people. They are spending millions now upgrading the Nenagh bypass into a DC, even given the fact this section of road is not even 10 years old. Heck it nearly is, jeesh time is flying :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 mysterious


    I said it before and I'll say it again

    This scheme can wait 2 more years, I'm sick and tired of Irelands second and third and fourth cities still not connected by a proper motorway

    Enough of this fannying about. Prioritise prioritise priortise in terms of which scheme needs to be built now. FFS.

    New Ross = 7,000 ppl. lovely to get a new bypass
    Cork = 190,000
    Limerick =100,000
    Galway = 70,000

    These cities are still not connected by a proper road and it's 2009.


    New Ross can wait.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭✭✭ Pisser Dignam


    mysterious wrote: »
    I said it before and I'll say it again

    This scheme can wait 2 more years, I'm sick and tired of Irelands second and third and fourth cities still not connected by a proper motorway

    Enough of this fannying about. Prioritise prioritise priortise in terms of which scheme needs to be built now. FFS.

    New Ross = 7,000 ppl. lovely to get a new bypass
    Cork = 190,000
    Limerick =100,000
    Galway = 70,000

    These cities are still not connected by a proper road and it's 2009.


    New Ross can wait.

    Don't hold your breath they're not even connected to Dublin yet, and that process took an economic miracle.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    mysterious wrote: »
    I said it before and I'll say it again

    This scheme can wait 2 more years, I'm sick and tired of Irelands second and third and fourth cities still not connected by a proper motorway

    Enough of this fannying about. Prioritise prioritise priortise in terms of which scheme needs to be built now. FFS.

    New Ross = 7,000 ppl. lovely to get a new bypass
    Cork = 190,000
    Limerick =100,000
    Galway = 70,000

    These cities are still not connected by a proper road and it's 2009.

    The point you are missing is that the3 road is not primarily there for New Ross's sake.It is there as essential infrastructure to carry traffic from Cork Kerry and Waterford to the port at Rosslaire. It doesnt matter what the population of New Ross is


    New Ross can wait.

    The point you are missing is that the3 road is not primarily there for New Ross's sake.It is there as essential infrastructure to carry traffic from Cork Kerry and Waterford to the port at Rosslaire. It doesnt matter what the population of New Ross is


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 Lennoxschips


    This is the size of a boat that you are building a motorway to, in a time that ferry traffic is in massive decline as well:

    StenaLynxIILeavingRosslare1440on9-8-2003FromNormandy.jpg

    Way more people go to Cork airport, and Cork airport has a fine 2+1 road leading up to it which does the trick just fine. Rosslare shouldn't be any different.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 220 ✭✭ MLM


    This is the size of a boat that you are building a motorway to, in a time that ferry traffic is in massive decline as well:

    StenaLynxIILeavingRosslare1440on9-8-2003FromNormandy.jpg

    Way more people go to Cork airport, and Cork airport has a fine 2+1 road leading up to it which does the trick just fine. Rosslare shouldn't be any different.

    If only we could load 100+ articulated lorries onto an aeroplane. BTW did you take that photo from one of the Superferries?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    This is the size of a boat that you are building a motorway to, in a time that ferry traffic is in massive decline as well:

    StenaLynxIILeavingRosslare1440on9-8-2003FromNormandy.jpg

    Way more people go to Cork airport, and Cork airport has a fine 2+1 road leading up to it which does the trick just fine. Rosslare shouldn't be any different.

    you have been in Holland too long my friend....in onof those cafés were you?

    the SHIPS that sail from Rosslaire are a lot bigger than the fast ferry you picture....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    2lsbst1.jpg

    ISLE OF iNISHMORE...iRISH FERRIES SHIP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    2d9npxj.jpg
    Stena Europe..I think thats Stena current ship


    then theres P&O's freight only roro and Irish ferries french sailings.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 Lennoxschips


    Those aren't particularily large ships either. We're not talking about a port here with dozens of berths with container ships docked all day. We're talking about one ship at a time a couple of times a day. It's a quiet port.

    The port of Puttgarden in Germany has full boats of that size sailing to Denmark every 40 minutes, and a single carriageway road suffices there.

    Same for places like Roscoff, Zeebrugge and, of course, Fishguard.

    Why we need a dual carriageway to such a quiet port is frankly beyond me. Taken over the whole day, there's probably more traffic on the Killimer-Tarbet ferry across the Shannon estuary.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 Lennoxschips


    If only we could load 100+ articulated lorries onto an aeroplane.

    The traffic going up to Cork airport is more than to Rosslare, this is what I'm saying. And having been on the Cork airport road myself, I know it's a fine road that does the job great.

    There are literally dozens of places in the country that should be up for a dual carriageway ahead of Rosslare.

    It's funny that somebody can say something delustional like that the N25 to Rosslare is an important Euroroute linking Cork and Kerry with the continent of Europe, and then turn around and accuse me of being on drugs or something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,738 ✭✭✭✭ corktina


    I apologise for inferring you are on drugs but , really, you have proved my point.There are at least 5 ferry services* operating out of Rosslare.They are VITAL to the SW of Irelands economy and that is why the Euroroute is important infrastructure and needs to be built to a good standard. I dont think thats delusional and I doubt if many others do either.

    Oh and by the by, there are two routes from Rosslaire to the M4 ih Wales...via Pembroke and Fishguard.Maybe that explains why a dual carriageway is becessary here.

    *two operate twice a day and one about 4 times...not sure of the frequency of the others


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 Amtmann


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    I think it will take more than a couple of anonymous internet posters such as yourself and bluntguy to change the decision of the NRA.

    More's the pity. I bet several posters here know a lot more about roads than anyone in the NRA.


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