Maths forum in science category???

pisslips

I'm no mathematician but surely maths is an Art.

In no way does it use the scientific method to explain anything, therefore it cannot be a science.

It is used to explain science and create a logical framework for scientific subjects.This is an application of maths no doubt.

Similarly the English language is used but we don't call it a science.

LeixlipRed

But would most people think to look for a maths forum in the science or arts section of boards? I think it's fine as it is to be honest. More accesible this way I believe.

Jonathan

I'd call maths a science.

Cow Moolester

I made a thread here a while back and found it hard to find the Maths forum...I thought it would've been in Education or something

amen

I'm no mathematician but surely maths is an Art

no way is it Art. Art is a subjective subject open to interpertation depending on your view point, mood, culture etc

Maths on the other hand is rigours practice that utilises a defined set of rules that can be proven by anyone and is cross culture (and life).

In 500 hundred years time someone should be able to look a maths book and understand it but a piece of Damine Hirst Art prob not

Fremen

As I see it, there's a crucial difference between maths and science. Science is deductive: it goes from the general to the specific by taking a series of observations or experiments and distilling them into laws.

On the other hand, maths is inductive, going from the specific to the general. It starts from axioms (at least in theory it does), and deduces general results from those axioms.

Pherekydes

I think Mathematics is both an art (form) and a science. It is an art that can be applied (i.e. a science). I think it's fine where it is, but moving it to the Arts category would be cool. As for moving it to the Education category, why not move Biology, Physics, Chemistry and so on to Education too?

Fremen's deductive/inductive contrast is a good way of looking at it.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

amen wrote: »

no way is it Art. Art is a subjective subject open to interpertation depending on your view point, mood, culture etc

Maths on the other hand is rigours practice that utilises a defined set of rules that can be proven by anyone and is cross culture (and life).

In 500 hundred years time someone should be able to look a maths book and understand it but a piece of Damine Hirst Art prob not

Well strictly speaking math is probably best categorised as a liberal art. I don't think the OP was speaking about art as in painting a picture, rather Arts in an academic context.

It certainly is not a science.

Davidius

Maths is maths.

No need to complicate things. :pac:

jrodd

Maths is more than a science, its a lifestyle tbh.

pisslips

It is definitely not a science in any way, what physical experiment has ever been done to prove any Maths theorem?

Sure maths is applied and can be used to explain empirical phenomena but then so can English, though less rigouressly.
We don't do experiments to prove english but then we can use english to explain them.
It would be far more similar to music imo, except far more objective and rigouous in describing things.

Maths need not have any resemblance to the reality that we percieve, nobody says it must be applied to anything or is of less value if it can't be.

I don't think I've ever seen a definition of art that implies, ''must be very subjective''.So I don't see how maths is not an art simply because it's objective logic.

It's got to be an art and is definitely not a science.
Having said that it's fine where it is I guess, if this is where most people would look.

Delphi91

According to Wikipedia, (searched for Maths)

Mathematics is the academic discipline, and its supporting body of knowledge, that involves the study of such concepts as quantity, structure, space and change. The mathematician Benjamin Peirce called it "the science that draws necessary conclusions".[2] Other practitioners of mathematics maintain that mathematics is the science of pattern, and that mathematicians seek out patterns whether found in numbers, space, science, computers, imaginary abstractions, or elsewhere.

In the preface to his book "The Story of Mathematics", Robert Mankiewicz states that

Mathematics is not about impenetrable symbols. It is about ideas: ideas of space, of time, of numbers, of relationships. It is a science of quantitative relationships, whose growth in sophistication and sublety has mirrored humanity's quest for knowledge. All ideas are born of vision. With the growth of computing power, it has been reborn as a visual science.

Having said that, I believe that there is an inherant beauty in maths in much the same way that there is beauty in "art". Does this indicate that it is an art or art form? There can certainly been an art to combining various mathematical ideas/operations/concepts/techniques. How many times have we heard of a theorem being proved in a beautiful way?

Mike

Grudaire

pisslips wrote: »

It is definitely not a science in any way, what physical experiment has ever been done to prove any Maths theorem?

Probability is often verified by doing it. I have heard that to test whether a dice was truly fair they literally rolled the dice many many times. Also more often people trying to test whether their formula for an object is reasonable use a simulated experiment on a computer, eg the formula for a ball in 4 dimensions etc

pisslips wrote: »

Sure maths is applied and can be used to explain empirical phenomena but then so can English, though less rigouressly.
We don't do experiments to prove english but then we can use english to explain them.
It would be far more similar to music imo, except far more objective and rigouous in describing things.

Maths need not have any resemblance to the reality that we percieve, nobody says it must be applied to anything or is of less value if it can't be.

I don't think I've ever seen a definition of art that implies, ''must be very subjective''.So I don't see how maths is not an art simply because it's objective logic.

It's got to be an art and is definitely not a science.
Having said that it's fine where it is I guess, if this is where most people would look.

Maths is a language, you can easily express complex concepts with it.

Fremen

Cliste wrote: »

Maths is a language, you can easily express complex concepts with it.

Never believed that myself. If you ask me, it's just shorthand for english. Or arabic, or whatever.

ecksor

I don't think this is a productive discussion but since I was probably the person who put this forum into this category, I will stick my comment in.

pisslips wrote: »

I'm no mathematician but surely maths is an Art.

This is a separate question to what you pose in the subject of the thread. If you mean to debate whether or not maths is a science, then this thread is fine here or potentially in the philosophy forum or the science forum.

If you're actually saying that this forum should exist elsewhere on boards.ie, then you need to post this question to the Feedback forum or somewhere else that addresses how the site is run. Crucially, you haven't suggested a better place to put it, nor is it immediately obvious to me where would have been a better place to put it. Suggestions welcome either here (and I can pass those suggestions along) or on the appropriate forums.

Cheers.

Grudaire

Fremen wrote: »

Never believed that myself. If you ask me, it's just shorthand for english. Or arabic, or whatever.

So it's another way of writing stuff? look at the Properties of a language according to the wunderful wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language

but then again the process of proving things using this 'shorthand' isn't exactly a essay...

pisslips

ecksor wrote: »

I don't think this is a productive discussion but since I was probably the person who put this forum into this category, I will stick my comment in.



This is a separate question to what you pose in the subject of the thread. If you mean to debate whether or not maths is a science, then this thread is fine here or potentially in the philosophy forum or the science forum.

If you're actually saying that this forum should exist elsewhere on boards.ie, then you need to post this question to the Feedback forum or somewhere else that addresses how the site is run. Crucially, you haven't suggested a better place to put it, nor is it immediately obvious to me where would have been a better place to put it. Suggestions welcome either here (and I can pass those suggestions along) or on the appropriate forums.

Cheers.

I felt that there should be a discussion as to whether it is defined as a science or not, then whether it could be defined as an Art. Following from this, whether or not people in general found that it was more efficient to put the subject in it's correct sub-group than to leave it where it is, presuming that it's not a science.

So, that was my thought process. It's not a big deal.


Also, as far as probability goes and computational simulation. Well I'm not sure if statistics is really maths but I'm not technically proficient enough to discuss that, just that it doesn't seem to feel intuitively axiomatic.Maybe it's applied math, just like computer science and theoretical physics.However, I'm not arguing that the language of maths isn't used in science. Also computational simulations, again are just idealised applications where we just chose some discrete system to find approximations but again we're just applying maths to our perception of systems.It is not used to prove maths, just to make it more intuitively clear whats happening.Just because I recognise a pattern does not make something objectively true. In fact I would even question the use of pattern recognition as a form of proof in science since it's very subjective.

KnifeWRENCH

I think the forum is fine where it is.
When I first looked for a Maths forum, I looked under Science.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58263693&postcount=262

Mellor

pisslips wrote: »

I'm no mathematician but surely maths is an Art.

In no way does it use the scientific method to explain anything, therefore it cannot be a science.

It is used to explain science and create a logical framework for scientific subjects.This is an application of maths no doubt.

Similarly the English language is used but we don't call it a science.

While I agree with you that maths is fundamentally different than the broader science subjects. You seam to miss the most important concept behind the headings. Just because "Maths" is under "Sci" doesn't mean that the powers that be at boards are insisting it is a science. It's simply the most logical place for it under the current heading framework. We could probably make up a new heading that was slightly better, but if we did that for every forum that didn't fit its heading perfectly (there are quite a few), we would surely undo the the whole purpose of having headings.

I also take your point that Maths could be considered one of "The Arts", but the problem there is the fact that the Art heading above refers solely to artistic works, (such as paintings, media works etc), which maths is not a part of.

The only heading that might be in anyway suitable would be "Edu", the problem there is that Edu refers solely to educational institutes and associated issues, not subjects. if maths was moved, so too would alot more topics.

pisslips

Fine, perfect answer, I never even checked to see what was even in the Arts category until now.

siobhanoh

well I am doing a degree in Financial and Actuarial Mathematics and its a Bachelor of Science degree... I wouldn't be too happy if they handed me an Arts degree at the end of it:rolleyes:

Thomas_S_Hunterson

siobhanoh wrote: »

I wouldn't be too happy if they handed me an Arts degree at the end of it:rolleyes:

That's a bit juvenile.

LeixlipRed

siobhanoh wrote: »

well I am doing a degree in Financial and Actuarial Mathematics and its a Bachelor of Science degree... I wouldn't be too happy if they handed me an Arts degree at the end of it:rolleyes:

Ridiculous post. I have an arts degree in Maths. Doesn't make a tap of a difference.

Grudaire

UCD actuary is from the business school, and that does make a bit of a difference (or so I'm told)

You can do maths in UCD as a or science subject, why's that?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Cliste wrote: »

UCD actuary is from the business school, and that does make a bit of a difference (or so I'm told)

It may have been, but definitely isn't now, it's under Science.

Grudaire

Sean_K wrote: »

It may have been, but definitely isn't now, it's under Science.

Oooops

Sure who'd want to go there anyway!?

need assistance

Mathematics is most definitely a science. Without mathematics there would be no science. Physics, economics, chemistry etc are at a fundamental level mathematical models. Scientific theories are mathematical models of how we expect a system to behave, be it atomic interactions, the populations of rabbits with a given food supply, the response to a rise in interest rates etc. However it requires an artistic mind to be a good mathematician. In fact one could say that most sciences nowadays (which are devoted to exploring quantifiable variables) are forms of applied mathematics

Thomas_S_Hunterson

need assistance wrote: »

Mathematics is most definitely a science. Without mathematics there would be no science.

Interesting logic...

Thomas Edison is most definitely a light-bulb. Without Thomas Edison there would be no light-bulbs.

im_invisible

looking at the categories under the science heading, maths wouldnt be the first id pick on as being out of place,

(maybe if LTI, dental, etc were still under biology,,

LeixlipRed

Maybe there's no right or wrong answer to this question. And is it such a huge issue? I'm fairly opinionated and love a good argument. Even I don't see the point in this one.

aequinoctium

Davidius wrote: »

Maths is maths.

No need to complicate things. :pac:

ditto

timbrophy

Wasn't it the great E.T.Bell who defined Mathematics as "Queen and Servant of Science"?

Economics is a science so if that qualifys, maths certainly does.

nyarlothothep

Sean_K wrote: »

Interesting logic...

Thomas Edison is most definitely a light-bulb. Without Thomas Edison there would be no light-bulbs.

maths flows through everything.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

nyarlothothep wrote: »

maths flows through everything.

Maths is a human construct applied retrospectively to everything.

Saying maths flows through everything is the same as saying speech flows through everything because everything can be described by speech. That doesn't make me talking science in itself.

/edit: despite what I'm saying, I still think the Science category is the best place for the forum.

timbrophy

Sean_K wrote: »

Maths is a human construct applied retrospectively to everything.

This begs the only important question: Do Mathematicians CREATE or DISCOVER new mathematics?

Leopold Kronecker said "God created the Integers, all else is the work of Man".

Godel felt that Mathematics could only exist in the mind of God.

It is not only whether Mathematics should be in a Science or Arts forum but whether Mathematics deals with Truth or Provability.

These are deep matters!

Anky2930

As far as my thinking is concerned mathematics and science both have same importance,when there is problem regarding mathematics maths is given more importance and when problem is from science field science has given more importance.
Definition of Alternate Interior Angles

Zaffy

Maybe it should be:
Arts
Sciences
And maths.

Cause tbh, Science needs maths, but does not fall into Arts.