The reason apple need to go off and DIE!!

Goodshape

art wrote: »

That was my whole point in a nutshell, you started off saying

but now you admit you actually do not use "drag and drop" after all, you use software to handle transfers.

I do use drag and drop, as is my preference.

In Linux I use Amarok to listen to my music (the latest version is actually available for Windows and Mac now too... not tried the newer one yet though) and if I ever actually wanted to do something like "copy all songs from 2008", Amarok makes that sort of thing very easy. But I've never wanted to that.

Lost as to where you are coming from with this conspiracy theory stuff.

I'll admit I may be over critical of the software but my (brief) experiences with it, and what I've gathered from other peoples experience, hasn't been good. And I think you're being overly defensive, btw :P

I know people who've lost their entire music collection because their tunes weren't "backed up" on the computer they synced with. Advanced options be damned, that shouldn't happen. The lowest common denominator buy iPods... these people don't know squat about advanced options.

And the new 'Genius' option.. you need your credit card for that? wa da feck? Amarok (and others) does essentially the same thing by connecting to Last.fm ....you don't even need a last.fm account, never mind CC details.

It baffles me slightly why anyone would choose to use it, and annoys me that people have to use it for their iPods. Very large part of the reason why I don't use the damn things.

fwiw, I tried the Sony software once. Even worse! ....and don't get me started on the old Creative software! These systems are restrictive because they don't let you choose.

Goodshape

art wrote: »

What freedom do you get from doing everything at the OS level that you fail to get when using an application

I get the freedom to use it on any machine I plug into, regardless of what software is installed.

And if software is installed then grand -- I can take that option if I want.

Freedom.

art

Goodshape wrote: »

I'll admit I may be over critical of the software but my (brief) experiences with it, and what I've gathered from other peoples experience, hasn't been good. And I think you're being overly defensive, btw :P

Just trying to bring a bit of balance here and put some facts into play. A lot of what you are saying is wrong, including the above statement that you need a credit card to use Genius - you need an iTunes store account. Given that the function is based on other people's accounts, that makes it perfectly logical. And to oppose this kind of "my mate's mate once had all his stuff deleted". You cannot delete all your stuff unless you click the option which clearly says "this will delete all my stuff". That's not "advanced" at all, it is a prompt that shows up on screen when you plug in a new device.

Goodshape

art wrote: »

Just trying to bring a bit of balance here and put some facts into play. A lot of what you are saying is wrong, including the above statement that you need a credit card to use Genius - you need an iTunes store account. Given that the function is based on other people's accounts, that makes it perfectly logical. And to oppose this kind of "my mate's mate once had all his stuff deleted". You cannot delete all your stuff unless you click the option which clearly says "this will delete all my stuff". That's not "advanced" at all, it is a prompt that shows up on screen when you plug in a new device.

Sigh. You need a credit card to open an iTunes account. Or a gift card, I guess. So either give them money straight away, or give them your credit card details. Either way -- that sucks. Why not just use Last.fm? oh right, yeah... because Apple likes to restrict you to Apple.

And it wasn't exactly a "mate's mate"... most recent example was my boyfriend, about two weeks ago. Maybe there was a warning beforehand but regardless, he couldn't (obviously at least) use his iPod with his new laptop without wiping the thing clean. The OP and others (yup, mates and mates of mates) would seem to suggest it's not an isolated incident.


An now I've got an iPhone beside me (LOVE the iPhone btw... just not for music) which I couldn't put any tunes on even if I wanted to, because I choose to use Linux. That sucks.

art

Goodshape wrote: »

Sigh. You need a credit card to open an iTunes account. Or a gift card, I guess. So either give them money straight away, or give them your credit card details. Either way -- that sucks. Why not just use Last.fm? oh right, yeah... because Apple likes to restrict you to Apple.

Think you haven't really accepted the real world here - why on earth would Last.fm allow Apple use its service like that? An Apple software function restricting you to an Apple service makes perfect sense here when the issue involves sharing accounts - I for one would not want anyone free access to my account, I do want some security there. And opening an iTunes account does not give them money straight away, that is just a silly thing to say altogether.

Goodshape

art wrote: »

Think you haven't really accepted the real world here - why on earth would Last.fm allow Apple use its service like that?

Last.fm has APIs that are free to use and free for developers to include in their applications. They don't have to specifically allow Apple to do anything - it's entirely up to Apple to take the initiative here and implement the service. It's simply not in their best interest to do this, when they could instead restrict you to their own services.

I remember the big hullabaloo people were making over Genius -- I couldn't help but think "huh, I've been doing that for years!". For free. And without handing over my personal financial details.

I for one would not want anyone free access to my account, I do want some security there.

Sort of a moot point as nobody is getting "access to your account" through Genius; but are you trying to imply that you'd be happy to grant such access so long as this other person has paid Apple for the privilege(of accessing your account)? Crazy. Like I said, the Last.fm feature doesn't even require an account, paid for or otherwise. It reads of the extensive database of music they already have.

And opening an iTunes account does not give them money straight away, that is just a silly thing to say altogether.

I stated two options you've got when opening an iTunes account, one of which does give them money straight away --- buying a gift card (for minimum €15 in the shops). The other method is to hand over your personal credit card information. For such a throwaway feature that can easily be emulated using a free and open service, this seems like overkill to me.

pleasant Co.

art wrote: »

What freedom do you get from doing everything at the OS level that you fail to get when using an application (any such application) specifically designed to assist in music management?

That isn't the argument I made, I said I have the freedom of CHOICE (to use software or drag and drop) when an MSC DAP is concerned, I am not restricted to only using software which is a choice I like having, because if the software is not programmed to do what I want it to do I most likely will be able to find a work around through the MSC compatibility.

art

As far as I know, Last.fm APIs cannot be used commerically, so Apple could not use them without the consent of Last.fm and I would very much doubt that consent would be "freely" given...

Last FM also has a subscription service. Otherwise it is ad driven which personally I don't like at all. And surely Last.fm does require an account? I'm pretty sure I had to create an account to use it.

What I find different with Genius compared to using Last.fm is that Genius has recommended to me stuff I never heard before whereas Last.fm never did that when I used it before, it's recommendations were quite predicable. I went back to using iTunes because of the addition of Genius and how interesting some of the recommendations proved to be. Though I also use other software depending on my needs and platform.

art

Mactard wrote: »

That isn't the argument I made, I said I have the freedom of CHOICE (to use software or drag and drop) when an MSC DAP is concerned, I am not restricted to only using software which is a choice I like having, because if the software is not programmed to do what I want it to do I most likely will be able to find a work around through the MSC compatibility.

Ah, probably arguing over too fine a point here alright - what I was reacting to was that earlier post by Goodshape that went "Drag+drop on, drag+drop off. No software, no nonsense. " which I found hard to accept as viable given the ease of use most software has over manual navigation and meticulous folder/file structures etc. I agree that it is good to be able to choose your own software but that's something I have done anyhow: I only went back to using iTunes on my main PC when they added in that Genius feature which I find very good (so far).

Goodshape

art wrote: »

As far as I know, Last.fm APIs cannot be used commerically, so Apple could not use them without the consent of Last.fm and I would very much doubt that consent would be "freely" given...

They can be used commercially and there's not necessarily a cost involved.

http://www.last.fm/api/account

Last.fm API sign-up page wrote:

In most cases we don’t charge for commercial use, but we do reserve the right to start charging fees – we will typically only do this if you are generating substantial revenues or gaining significant commercial advantage by using Last.fm data.

And it's not Apple using their own service for Genius that annoys me, it's the fact it requires an iTunes account, and that that requires your CC details.

Last FM also has a subscription service. Otherwise it is ad driven which personally I don't like at all. And surely Last.fm does require an account? I'm pretty sure I had to create an account to use it.

Depends what you want to do with it.

In the previous version of Amarok (I've not gotten my head around the new version yet, unfortunately) there was an option to automatically and dynamically populate a playlist with tracks you own based on a few tracks you pre-select yourself. It populated the rest of the playlist based on a sort of "those tunes are similar in style and taste to these ones" mechanism, and it got that information from the extensive last.fm database. A Last.fm account is not necessary for this feature.

Isn't that essentially what Genius does?

If you do create a (totally free) last.fm account, you can build a profile of your personal music tastes and get access to your 'personal radio' which will stream tracks you don't necessarily own, but might like, based on what you've listened to and favourited in the past.

No adverts from last.fm or anywhere else appear in Amarok if you choose to use these features. Last.fm are happy because it spreads the word, and spreads their userbase.


BTW, some concern over exactly what Apple are doing with the information they gather about you and the music you "own" via Genius : http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080909212821AA3nDe5

art

Goodshape wrote: »

They can be used commercially and there's not necessarily a cost involved.

http://www.last.fm/api/account

And it's not Apple using their own service for Genius that annoys me, it's the fact it requires an iTunes account, and that that requires your CC details.

Touche: that link states I must have a Last.fm account! Though I think I didn't phrase my earlier remark clearly enough, to use the api you need the consent of last.fm. Apple cannot, as you had suggested, just take the initiative and use last.fm resources. Plus, there's all sorts of conditions there in their "terms of service" that would also prevent Apple using last.fm data, it's very obviously an impossibility if you read through them.

"Unofficially" though, you could add Last.fm to the iTunes radio lists if you really wanted to. I've never tried that so can't comment on it much.

The need for an iTunes store account to use Genius is due to Genius being based on iTunes accounts. That's self explanatory really.

The bottom line is that Genius is just an added feature you can turn on or off. There's no compulsion to use it and it does not in any way impact on the other functions of iTunes. So can't really see the point in arguing against its availability in the product.

Goodshape

art wrote: »

Touche: that link states I must have a Last.fm account!

Not to use the Genius-like feature I was talking about in Amarok you don't.

Though I think I didn't phrase my earlier remark clearly enough, to use the api you need the consent of last.fm. Apple cannot, as you had suggested, just take the initiative and use last.fm resources.

Hmm, perhaps you're right. IANAL.

Which just reinforces the main point of this thread really --- why use iTunes? There's better more capable free software out there.

ooohhh... that's right! It's because iPods (newer ones and particularly iPhones at least) pretty much demand that your do.

pleasant Co.

art wrote: »

Ah, probably arguing over too fine a point here alright - what I was reacting to was that earlier post by Goodshape that went "Drag+drop on, drag+drop off. No software, no nonsense. " which I found hard to accept as viable given the ease of use most software has over manual navigation and meticulous folder/file structures etc. I agree that it is good to be able to choose your own software but that's something I have done anyhow: I only went back to using iTunes on my main PC when they added in that Genius feature which I find very good (so far).

Cool cool, just want to apologise on my tone earlier though, they way I wrote might of come of kinda dickish...didn't mean for it to come off like that...but sorry for that anyway.

art

Mactard wrote: »

Cool cool, just want to apologise on my tone earlier though, they way I wrote might of come of kinda dickish...didn't mean for it to come off like that...but sorry for that anyway.

No worries! - I've seen your posts on the forum here regularly and you've always come across as one of the most unbiased and respectable posters so took no offence!