Would you recommend a career in teaching, given the current economic climate?

Tom Dunne

The only real insight to the teaching profession is what I read on this forum.

To me, the impression I get is that it would be utterly ludicrous for anyone to consider a career in teaching in the current climate, given the lack of prospects in securing a temporary position, never mind a permanent position. Am I right, or am I wrong?

Aside from the notion of a fulfilling career, would you encourage a person to consider a career in teaching? Or would you say that it is just not a viable career option right now?

Not trying to be provocative or anything, just curious.

TheDriver

No way in the world as the queues to get into the profession are very long, everyone is expecting a job and cutbacks are taking place. I got in during the boom when everyone said i was mad to leave my job in industry but now whos mad!
Great job, both as a job and also to be permanent but wouldn't recommend anyone into it. Theres already plenty of qualified teachers lying idle.

carl-sagan

if you want to teach then go for it..

Tom Dunne

carl-sagan wrote: »

if you want to teach then go for it..

Even the way things are with a slim to remote possibility of landing a job, never mind a full-time one?

kittex

If you have an inkling to teach and travel, then there's never been a better time.
Many other countries are doing what economists recommend and investing in physical and intellectual infrastructure to help keep things ticking over.

There are loads of jobs to be had in America, (generally the Southern states), England (not the rest of the UK), Australia (where I am going), New Zealand and elsewhere in Europe. The demand for teachers to teach UK MoD kids in bases in Europe has been pretty high too (what with the 'wars' and increased recruitment) if you could put up with that sort of thing.

Teach in Ireland? Nope. Been trying to find work here for 2 years and it's depressing. Had loads and loads of offers and positive feedback, but you're talking 3 hours here, 6 hours there. I've had to turn them down as I can't afford to hang on, barely working, in the hope that someone goes off on maternity and I just might get proper hours.

Shame.

carl-sagan

sorry my reply may have been a little impulsive..I guess taking into account the current economic climate the chance of landing a premanent job look doubtful. But if you really want to do it then throw practicality aside and say to hell with ,im going to become a teacher. Question is do you want to teach for the money and obvious perks of the job or because you really would like to teach full stop. Its prob a mixture of both but why not throw cauttion to the wind and go do it. Maybe spell teaching abroad could be the way to go. I apologise Tom as im rambling away here, and iwas going to try and be concise about this.

Tom Dunne

carl-sagan wrote: »

sorry my reply may have been a little impulsive..I guess taking into account the current economic climate the chance of landing a premanent job look doubtful. But if you really want to do it then throw practicality aside and say to hell with ,im going to become a teacher. Question is do you want to teach for the money and obvious perks of the job or because you really would like to teach full stop. Its prob a mixture of both but why not throw cauttion to the wind and go do it. Maybe spell teaching abroad could be the way to go.

Don't get me wrong - I am not considering teaching. I have my sights set higher. Lecturing is what I want to do, but I have given up any hope of getting a position on the next 5-10 years, so I am stuck in the 9-5 grind until then.

I think it is dangerous situation to be in where there are a couple of hundred teachers qualifying each year, and the only option to them is a plane out of this country.

TheDriver

carl-sagan wrote: »

sorry my reply may have been a little impulsive..I guess taking into account the current economic climate the chance of landing a premanent job look doubtful. But if you really want to do it then throw practicality aside and say to hell with ,im going to become a teacher. Question is do you want to teach for the money and obvious perks of the job or because you really would like to teach full stop. Its prob a mixture of both but why not throw cauttion to the wind and go do it. Maybe spell teaching abroad could be the way to go. I apologise Tom as im rambling away here, and iwas going to try and be concise about this.

Thats all well and good but there are so many people qualified and can't get jobs that they actually live on, only picking up small number of hours. And with Batt having his way ultimately, who knows what the future holds. Its absolute rubbish when someone teaches for the love of teaching, i teach because its a job i love but ultimately its for the conditions that go with it as its still ajob at the end of the day that supports the rest of my lifestyle. Anyone who spends all night and weekend doing notes etc lives for teaching and youfind they burn themselves out or find they are left with nothing other than their job after it all, job being the work. Tom Dunne stated "as a career" and people need to realise picking up a few years experience abroad need to be prepared to sta y abroad if they want to stay teaching.

carl-sagan

TheDriver wrote: »

Thats all well and good but there are so many people qualified and can't get jobs that they actually live on, only picking up small number of hours. And with Batt having his way ultimately, who knows what the future holds. Its absolute rubbish when someone teaches for the love of teaching, i teach because its a job i love but ultimately its for the conditions that go with it as its still ajob at the end of the day that supports the rest of my lifestyle. Anyone who spends all night and weekend doing notes etc lives for teaching and youfind they burn themselves out or find they are left with nothing other than their job after it all, job being the work. Tom Dunne stated "as a career" and people need to realise picking up a few years experience abroad need to be prepared to sta y abroad if they want to stay teaching.

you make some good points there, i wont disagree.

freire

This kinda question has been done a few times on this forum in recent times. For what it's worth I reckon the key to ensuring employment is subject choice at primary degree level. Look at the teachers who are scratching around for a few hours here and there and struggling even at that and I think you'll find they are competing in a seriously over subscribed environment. In UCD last year there were at least 25% of the course quota in English with a lot of those with History. That's gotta be tough on leaving and entering into the job market. I feel if you've got a more obscure degree which allows you to teach in majority of schools eg a language, not German, or maths or science you should do well. Also when you do your PGDE get involved in the school extra curricular activities - sports, panto, clubs etc and study groups, be dynamic and stand out. Above all be lucky!

If you want to teach you'll succeed in the end and it's ''bleeding deadly'', fantastic job - keeps you young in the long run.

rainbowtrout

freire wrote: »

This kinda question has been done a few times on this forum in recent times. For what it's worth I reckon the key to ensuring employment is subject choice at primary degree level. Look at the teachers who are scratching around for a few hours here and there and struggling even at that and I think you'll find they are competing in a seriously over subscribed environment. In UCD last year there were at least 25% of the course quota in English with a lot of those with History. That's gotta be tough on leaving and entering into the job market. I feel if you've got a more obscure degree which allows you to teach in majority of schools eg a language, not German, or maths or science you should do well. Also when you do your PGDE get involved in the school extra curricular activities - sports, panto, clubs etc and study groups, be dynamic and stand out. Above all be lucky!

If you want to teach you'll succeed in the end and it's ''bleeding deadly'', fantastic job - keeps you young in the long run.

i wish i could agree with you freire and a couple of years ago I would have. But there aren't m/any jobs out there in any subject at the moment. There's little or nothing in science. While most of my friends have steady teaching jobs there are a number who have not been so lucky. One of my friends has been doing the route of subbing/sick leave/secondments/maternity leaves since we left college 8 years ago and is beginning to wonder what to do as teaching is all she knows, yet she can't get a job with a contract, so is faced with a new staff & students, a new set of rules and regulations, subjects and very often a new town and housemates every year and sometimes twice a year. Even though she is getting regular work, it's back to doing summer work each year and not being able to settle anywhere because she's on the move again a few months later. It's pretty demoralising. She's at the point where she wonders if she should persevere and hope for a contract or give up and try and retrain to do something else.

another friend is commuting to dublin from roscommon to teach everyday because she can't get a job even within 90 minutes from here in any direction. She's well qualified, taught in Australia and here, has a PhD. She's lucky she has a job but at serious expense to her quality of life.

I know they are isolated cases but there are plenty more like them. both are science teachers by the way.

i also think that HDip students are somewhat misguided through no fault of their own in thinking that once they qualify there will be a job for them and it isn't so... there are too many qualifying every year and there simply aren't enough jobs to sustain them all, not jobs that have enough hours to live on without another form of income anyway.

I also think there has been a bg swing away from courses like computing over the last number of years and of course in the last year construction and related areas because of the way the economy has gone. The course i originally did in teaching in UL has been hanging around the 360-380 points mark for a number of years now and this year shot up to 470. I think students leaving school this year were perhaps returning to the notion of a secure, dependable, permanent pensionable job, which of course isn't the reality. But a 17 year old LC student doesn't know what goes on behind the scenes and wouldn't ever stop to think that teachers would be on different contracts etc because we all do the same job in their eyes.


Having said that it's a great job and I love what I do and I'm one of the lucky ones (permanent) but I wouldn't be too optimistic for this years graduates in landing contracts in large numbers. It will be ok for the younger graduates who perhaps went in straight from their degree and have little commitments, financial or otherwise but for a mature student who has decided to become a teacher it might be that bit harder to be subbing on irregular income if there's children and mortgages etc involved.

Sir Humphrey

There are a number of factors which hinder the teaching trade and those who want to join it.

One is that is it too easy to qualify as a teacher i.e. do the PGDE. All it takes is one academic year and I think many do so as an alternative to having to make a trickier decision at the time.

The problem here is that people with completely unrealistic teaching prospects can easily get through the net and not have a hope in hell of getting regular work with their subjects. And it is not true to imply that there are the same problems getting teaching work in all subjects. Subject choice matters hugely but many don't consider this when they set out on their degree course and that's why you get so many history graduates and the like who will never get employment. Perhaps a two-year course with reduced number and a much more rigorous system by which to identify potential teachers would produce greater effect.

But people also need to be realistic in relation to qualifications. Not for the first time, I see on this thread mention of someone having a Phd. So what?

A Phd gives you deep knowledge in a very narrow area which might not be covered at all in the secondary curriculum, and if it is certainly will not require someone with that depth of research done to teach it.

As far as I can see, however impressed some people may be by a Phd, it is often only slightly less relevant to the job of school caretaker than it is to the work of the teacher. Anyone who thinks that it will have the remotest positive impact on their teaching employment prospects is in cloud cuckoo land.

In fact it is possible that it may have a negative impact in that they might come across to schools as people merely biding time before inevitably pursuing something more germane to their qualification. It is a farce that such an unnecessary embellishment qualification is worth so many points on the PGDE application.

Similarly, someone on one of these threads in the past few days mentioned that they were doing a TEFL course which - along with whatever teaching experience garnered in teaching it during the summer - "might look good on the CV". Again, this is rather unrealistic. The only place a TEFL qualification will be a deal-maker or deal-breaker will be for a TEFL job. A qualification acquired over a few weeks will have obvious limitations and will cut little ice with school authorities if your teaching subjects are not what they require.

There are problems within teaching itself too which cause career problems for new teachers. The ease with which career-breakers can hold up positions in schools for years is a joke. Also - to go back on something I touched on earlier - the Department of Education could insist a bit more that people accepted onto the PGDE courses are bringing to the table subject areas which reasonably reflect schools' requirements. Of course, because the profession is over-subscribed they don't need to do this, and it is a very handy way to fund universities - at €6 grand a pop - without raiding the exchequer, but it would do everyone a favour. Schools would not be bombarded with CVs which are well wide of the goalposts, and it would also help to weed out people with totally unrealistic teaching ambitions and help avoid disappointment down the road.

It also has to be said that if the teaching council's insistence that people have to be properly qualified to teach subjects - i.e. you teach only what your degree qualifies you to teach - was actually adhered to in all schools, rather than having teachers bluffing their way through subjects with which they are not familiar, not only would the standard of teaching rise with specialist teachers, but obviously more positions would be available.

All that being said, it is the case with most jobs these days that 'permanent/pensionable' does not come into it. Law and journalism are two that spring to mind. Staff jobs in journalism are like hen's teeth. But teachers are lucky in that there is relative mobility in their work. Someone mentioned a girl moving to a different town every year. Okay, it is not ideal, but what other job would afford you the ability to actually do that? Yet, many other types of job feature the instability and unpredictibility but not the huge variety of workplaces to choose from.

It seems to me quite likely that in the future teachers will work from contract to contract as the norm. Maybe a reappraisal of expectations is necessary in the teaching business, and I do not mean this as an implied criticism of teaching conditions by the way.

For what it's worth, I would suggest to people to make a realistic assessment of their prospects with particular reference to their subject areas and do so by doing wide research i.e. talk to principals, look at job offers and trends etc. Do not rely on what you read here too much because while I am sure every word written here is offered with genuine intent and honesty, most individuals will have a very limited range of experience.

And if you decide that there are serious prospects for you within the context of how the profession is going generally - the economic downturn will not last forever - then stick with it. But be realistic; if you are going to be able to teach only English, History and CSPE, your employability will be zero while if you can teach, for example, Irish and Maths, demand for you skills will be relatively high.

Another thing to bear in mind is that because of the recession prospects in all areas in the short-term are not great so deciding teaching is not for you because you cannot get an ideal working arrangement does not mean that you will easily find gainful employment in another sphere.

Toto Wolfcastle

I had this conversation yesterday with a teacher who has been teaching for over 25 years. I was speaking to her as one of the two newly qualified teachers who were offered permanent contracts upon finishing the PGDE. Both of us felt that now is completely the wrong time to get into teaching.

The PGDE has been accepting far too many students for years as it is. For years, teachers have been starting the PGDE knowing that it could possibly take years to find a permanent job. For a long time, teachers have been relying on subbing hours wherever they were available. It has, for a long time, been a risk to go into teaching.

Now, since the budget, things are far far worse. The 2.7 million for subbing/supervision is estimated to last through January at most. Once that money runs out, subbing work will be scarce. So teachers will not even have that to fall back on.

People need to be realistic about teaching. Out of the people who qualified last year that I have spoken to, the majority found it extremely difficult to find any sort of work. There are people who I work with who survive on semi-regular subbing hours because they can't find anything else.

Unless the numbers of people being accepted into the PGDE are decreased, and until the subject choices of prospective teachers are taken into account, I would be very wary about going into teaching. There is no point in taking in 90 students with English degrees because there simply aren't the jobs available.

I know that because I am newly qualified, this will seem strange, but there is no way I would recommend that people go into teaching at this time.

freire

janeybabe wrote: »

Unless the numbers of people being accepted into the PGDE are decreased, and until the subject choices of prospective teachers are taken into account, I would be very wary about going into teaching.

I have to agree on the numbers being accepted into teaching courses. There are too many unfulfilled dreams and expectations. On my first day into UCD I was a little late and entered into a lecture theatre and immediately turned tail, convinced I had the wrong place. In my innocence I presumed it to be a much smaller number admitted. We've all heard about how hard it is to gain admittance to these things and how people try two and three times before success. On my exit the course director was at a desk and asked me if I was there for the PGDE. I simply could not believe the numbers and asked if there were really jobs for all these people to which I received a hesitant 'yes'.

To my knowledge quite a few are still looking for work. But like I said in a previous post, there is no shortage of English grads and positions like this are hotly contested. Subject choice is very important.

TheDriver

there is also the issue that people with physics degrees for example getting a 2.2 (which is excellent) not being able to get the Dip because of points yet its full of other subjects because they all have 1h degrees hence why its difficult to get certain teachers still.

bethm24

This country is starting to piss me off. There seem to be a zillion teachers hovering around Ireland with no jobs? And then they are increaing class sizes .Cuts etc:mad:

Powerhouse

The comments below from the last two posts cover much the same issue - the inability of the authorities to create the remotest connection between teaching supply and demand and make people aware of it.

As far as the universities are concered it's a nice money-spinner and caveat emptor for the student who is willing to part with 6/7 grand to do PGDE. It's not for them to speculate as to your job prospects. But it seems unfair that so many no-hopers in employment terms are encouraged into the job.

I also have the feeling that far more people get into the PGDE on the basis of points garnered from teaching hours/other post-grad studies than get in there with firsts.

It also seems ludricous that a Masters (in anything it seems) offers so many points as to guarantee entry to the PGDE, yet the salary allowance does not reflect this value. I realise that the Dept of Education and the Universities are independent entities but surely there should be some kind of relationship between the value of a Masters in salary terms and its value in terms of the PGDE points? And what I am getting at here is that I don't undestand why is the value so high in terms of the PGDE - and I say that as a Master's holder by the way!



"there is also the issue that people with physics degrees for example getting a 2.2 (which is excellent) not being able to get the Dip because of points yet its full of other subjects because they all have 1h degrees hence why its difficult to get certain teachers still."

"This country is starting to piss me off. There seem to be a zillion teachers hovering around Ireland with no jobs? And then they are increaing class sizes .Cuts etc"

Toto Wolfcastle

I worries me that I hear of so many people who are planning on going into teaching having lost jobs (or who have the threat of losing their jobs hanging over them) because they believe that it is a secure job to have during the recession. People need to realise that, yes, it is a secure enough job, but that's only once you get yourself a permanent job, or one with a view to permanency.

TheDriver

Which is impossible to get at moment, its luck if you get hours in the current climate!

Toto Wolfcastle

TheDriver wrote: »

Which is impossible to get at moment, its luck if you get hours in the current climate!

Exactly. Our school has subs who have been unable to get hours anywhere else since qualifying.

I really don't understand why this is not spelled out to people who want to do the PGDE. Ideally they would decrease the numbers accepted, but at the very least an explicit warning should be given, because people don't seem to know how difficult it is to get hours.

TheDriver

and they get awful annoyed and cranky becasue they didn't realise its so bad, all the country thinks its easy to get into, easy job and great "free" pension! Its nothing like guards and nurses who have much easier routes into the workplace

Powerhouse

janeybabe wrote: »

I really don't understand why this is not spelled out to people who want to do the PGDE. Ideally they would decrease the numbers accepted, but at the very least an explicit warning should be given, because people don't seem to know how difficult it is to get hours.

I don't know why you don't understand - it's a no-brainer. It's all about vested interests. If you want to understand why people do or do not do things in a situation where there is money sloshing around you should alwyas examine the matter by considering what their incentives are. People's behaviour is nearly always governed by incentives or lack of them and in this case it is no different. The different bodies keep quiet on this matter because their incentives suggest they should.

The universities make a lot of money from PGDE applicants. For them to take applicants aside and advise them against doing the course or dampen their enthusiasm for it would be like the ice-cream man telling kids that it's not really that hot and buying ice-cream is not really a good idea. It's money for old rope for the universites. The course is obviously relatively cheap to provide with no major equipment needed - at six grand a go the marginal cost to the university of teaching another student after the first 40/50 is probably zero. The students will spend more time in their school than they will in college yet they pay through the nose for the course in their thousands. Why on earth would a university endanger a veritable licence to print money by telling a few home truths about something (jobs) which is ultimately none of their concern? They would see that as a matter for government whihc is the body which will have to pay unemployment benefit to people who cannot gets jobs............which brings us nicely onto the other vested interest.

The Department of Education will not advise anyone against doing it for two reasons, 1) it keeps numbers of teachers up which means that the government can keep salaries down because of excess demand, (in what other job would a university graduate earn a basic salary of only 63k after 25 odd years!) and 2) if the universities cannot attract funding by continuing to take far more candidates than there are jobs for, the government will be forced to stump up more funding to make up the shortfall instead, and at a stretch perhaps pay unemployment benefit to those who would otherwise have taken the PGDE course. The potential cost saving to the government of having a student studying for this course could be thousands upon thousands especially when you consider that they teach classes for free as part of their course obligation, which frees up other teachers to do other things and probably saves employing a substitute teacher on many days.

So both parties (government and universities) have a massive vested interest in the status quo.

If anyone should kick up a fuss it is the teacher unions.

Powerhouse

TheDriver wrote: »

and they get awful annoyed and cranky becasue they didn't realise its so bad, all the country thinks its easy to get into, easy job and great "free" pension! Its nothing like guards and nurses who have much easier routes into the workplace

I don't know much about nursing but there is indeed no comparison between teachers and guards. The need for extra guards is identified by government and because the government pays for the training they are trained only as they are needed which is why you'll never see an umemployed copper.

The problem for teaching is that the training is paid for by the prospective teacher, so it costs the government diddley-squat, and therefore there is no incentive to cap numbers. If Garda training was provided by a third-party and paid for by the candidates instead of the government you'd have that job over-subscribed too. And obviously the converse holds for the training of teachers - if the governement had to pay for their training the number trained would probably fit nice and snugly into the jobs available.

freire

Some interesting and valid points here. Nice train of thought.

Dr Bill Cullen

I got sick of all the subbing; I am a qualified Science and maths teacher since 2004.
I was getting married so I decided that I would not let my wife suffer the worry of me having little work and little income and left the profession. I miss it every day but I now have a post graduate engineering qualification and I am better paid and satisfied in my work(not worried about the recession, i am well insulated).
People here think I was crazy to give up teaching, with the usual response being about the "Great Holidays". My response is that if you are in the job for the holidays then you won’t last and it is not a good reason to be a teacher, nor is it fair to the students.
There is an over supply of secondary teachers, I think a good idea would be to offer a conversion course (curriculum upgrade)for secondary school teachers to teach primary, it would get more males into the primary school sector and you could have more science and maths teachers giving students a love of the subject at an early age.
I think the interview process for teaching jobs in Ireland is a disgrace, jobs for the boys, nepotism, and highly dubious recruitment policies, there is a lot to learn from the private sector especially within the quality management area.
A word the teaching profession could learn from the private sector is "Continual Improvement” and Kaizen (Change for the better).

ebmma

Sir Humphrey wrote: »

Not for the first time, I see on this thread mention of someone having a Phd. So what?

Most colleges require PhD students to do tutorials for a class (sometimes several different ones) and labs for undergraduate students.

Which is pretty useful skill when it comes to teaching. Also the way 1st year (I can only speak for science) is structured, it is a repetition of leaving cert.
Some lab practicals mirror those of LC too.
So PhD students essentially teach classes leaving cert level of the subject.

It is not the same as teaching in school, but I it is definitely useful.

TheDriver

Dr Bill Cullen wrote: »

I think a good idea would be to offer a conversion course (curriculum upgrade)for secondary school teachers to teach primary, it would get more males into the primary school sector and you could have more science and maths teachers giving students a love of the subject at an early age.

Hibernia and MaryI postgrad course both offer anyone with a degree to go forth and convert into Education which is basically a conversion course for primary teaching

Dr Bill Cullen

TheDriver wrote: »

Hibernia and MaryI postgrad course both offer anyone with a degree to go forth and convert into Education which is basically a conversion course for primary teaching

No it is a one year course, and you need honours irish,and you are basically learning the same thing the only difference being the curriculum and the a small piece of the educational psychology.
I know this as my wife trained as a hibernia teacher the same time as i did my H dip, iwe had practically the same notes, in history of ed, philosophy of ed, psychology of ed.

My point is that you are trained by an accredated course and institution, so you should only have to do the courses that are different.
A doctor would not have to redo a whole 7 years of university to switch from a surgeon to a GP. A nurse would not have to redo their degree to go from midwifery to geriatrics they would just have to re train in their specialist fields.

Dudess

This thread seems to be focusing only on post-primary. What about primary? Situation as bad? (I know it has certainly disimproved).

ytareh

Powerhouse for Taoiseach !

MissHoneyBun

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Aside from the notion of a fulfilling career, would you encourage a person to consider a career in teaching? Or would you say that it is just not a viable career option right now?
Not trying to be provocative or anything, just curious.

I don't want to sound smart arsed here but I am increasingly amused at the amount of people at the moment who think "Ah i'll go do teaching, it's a safe handy number" I'm sorry but that's just not how it works, not in relation to primary teaching anyway. Teaching is by and large a vocation -you're either cut out for it or you're not, so lately to hear all and sundry waffle about "considering teaching" as though it's a recessionary free for all just leaves me bewildered. As anyone who has gone through the system will readily agree, qualifying as a teacher is an intense and challenging process, not to be taken lightly. So to suggest that people should simply "consider a career in teaching" due to the "current economic climate" only serves to undermine the profession and highlight the naiviety of the unprecedented masses now considering this route.

Despite the cynicism, boards of management are obliged to restrict entry to B.Ed courses not for economic reasons but as a duty of care to the thousands of children who are indebted to the services of the teachers produced by these colleges. Therefore the entry process alone rightly involves numerous written applications, interviews, aptitude tests and orals and even then pends the approval of strict Garda vetting. I won't get in to the intricacies of the B.Ed course, suffice to say that even those from the 600 points stable have crumbled under the pressure and not made it to graduation day.

I guess my point is that teaching is a difficult job, one that presents unforeseen challenges all the way from TP to retirement. I often hear mums and dads comment on the difficulties of looking after children -well multiply that by thirty and include their formal education and you have some idea of what it is to teach children every day. Please give that responsibility the respect it deserves.