Zeitgeist

King Mob

Veni Vedi Vici wrote: »

All accurate as expected but the question is are we not in a position to leverage our global welfare by our acquired altruism as a result of our progression in opposition to our predecessors?

I honestly don't know the answer. I'm just throwing it out there.

I'd say "Not yet." And believe that going backwards to a pretty rose tinted version of the past isn't a good idea.

Mahatma coat

KM, look up, do you hear that whooshing sound, thats my point, again.

jackiebrown

meglome wrote: »

Lads I've yet to hear just how society is worse now than it was in the past. As far as I can see nearly everything you've described was much worse in the past.

I'll try to explain.

Imagine a man will live to be 80 years old. When he's 20 he is wrongly convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. For the first 30 years he's tortured everyday. Hot pokers burn his flesh and hard leather boots break his bones.

After 30 years he's placed in solitary confinement but is never beaten again. Relative to him, life has improved immeasurably. But he is still not free.

Flamed Diving

Is this thread going off topic?

Still waiting for a response from Peter...

meglome

Mahatma coat wrote: »

oooh can I have a go in your time machine so that I too may objectivly judge the past by our standards, and then maybe we could whip forward a thousand years and judge us by their standards.

Seriously anyone livin as a citizen in Rome 2500 years ago was, as far as they were concerned, at the cutteng edge of civilisation, they had 'representative' government, central heating,Indoor plumbing, slaves, schools and daycare, libraries, public baths, bakeries, resturaunts, theaters, GLADIATORS, stable economies, a road network that enabled communication like never before, modern methods of transportation, and a general sense that their way of life would persevere throughout the ages.

So what has changed, besides the acquisition of a few nifty little gadgets to to replace the slaves?

Both King Mob and I have listed numerous ways in which society is better than it was in the past. I'm not suggesting it's perfect now, not at all. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't be all working to make it better, not at all. Is the planet better off for having billions more humans living on it, definitely not. But nothing I've seen in this thread shows me how life was better in the past. This rose tinted past bull**** has very little basis in reality. I'm tired of hearing about how the elites are walking all over us when clearly the average person had basically no say in what happened to them in only the very recent past. Maybe the family groups that lived together in the bronze age lived a more fulfilling life, I really don't know, but with billions more people on the planet I wonder how that'd work now. I mean harking back to a 'utopian' past worked well in Cambodia, didn't it?

jackiebrown wrote: »

I'll try to explain.

Imagine a man will live to be 80 years old. When he's 20 he is wrongly convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. For the first 30 years he's tortured everyday. Hot pokers burn his flesh and hard leather boots break his bones.

After 30 years he's placed in solitary confinement but is never beaten again. Relative to him, life has improved immeasurably. But he is still not free.

This sounds like how things were in the past.

Maybe you can give me a list of things that were better in the past? I'm obviously not getting it.

jackiebrown

meglome wrote: »

This sounds like how things were in the past.

Maybe you can give me a list of things that were better in the past? I'm obviously not getting it.

I agree.

meglome

jackiebrown wrote: »

I agree.

Were you answering my question?

Flamed Diving

Mahatma coat wrote: »

oooh can I have a go in your time machine so that I too may objectivly judge the past by our standards, and then maybe we could whip forward a thousand years and judge us by their standards.

Seriously anyone livin as a citizen in Rome 2500 years ago was, as far as they were concerned, at the cutteng edge of civilisation, they had 'representative' government, central heating,Indoor plumbing, slaves, schools and daycare, libraries, public baths, bakeries, resturaunts, theaters, GLADIATORS, stable economies, a road network that enabled communication like never before, modern methods of transportation, and a general sense that their way of life would persevere throughout the ages.

So what has changed, besides the acquisition of a few nifty little gadgets to to replace the slaves?

"Industrial progress, mechanical improvement, all of the great wonders of the modern era have meant little to the wealthy. The rich in ancient Greece would have benefited hardly at all from modern plumbing — running servants replaced running water. Television and radio — the patricians of Rome could enjoy the leading musicians and actors in their home, could have the leading artists as domestic retainers. Ready-to-wear clothing, supermarkets — all these and many other modern developments would have added little to their life. They would have welcomed the improvements in transportation and in medicine, but for the rest, the great achievements of western capitalism have rebounded primarily to the benefit of the ordinary person. These achievements have made available to the masses conveniences and amenities that were previously the exclusive prerogative of the rich and powerful."

* Free to Choose (1980) p.148
Milton Friedman

uncleoswald

Mahatma coat wrote: »

oooh can I have a go in your time machine so that I too may objectivly judge the past by our standards, and then maybe we could whip forward a thousand years and judge us by their standards.

Seriously anyone livin as a citizen in Rome 2500 years ago was, as far as they were concerned, at the cutteng edge of civilisation, they had 'representative' government, central heating,Indoor plumbing, slaves, schools and daycare, libraries, public baths, bakeries, resturaunts, theaters, GLADIATORS, stable economies, a road network that enabled communication like never before, modern methods of transportation, and a general sense that their way of life would persevere throughout the ages.

So what has changed, besides the acquisition of a few nifty little gadgets to to replace the slaves?

Yes and archaeologist in the future will discover that everyone in the 21st Centaury all lived in luxury apartments off 5th Avenue, had butlers, 50" HDTV, went on holidays to the Côte d'Azur to stay on our friends yachts, had the best private hospital care and generally lounged around laughing with our friends in our Abercrombie gear drinking nothing but Champagne and Evian and eating organic strawberries covered in fair-trade chocolate and generally acting like complete t*ts.

So the select few who were able to live the life you describe could do so because of major inequality and the suffering of countless others, but to a far greater extent then that exists today. What is your point?

King Mob

Mahatma coat wrote: »

KM, look up, do you hear that whooshing sound, thats my point, again.

And your point was?
That a very small minority of very wealthy Romans have a lifestyle somewhat similar to the lifestyle now enjoyed by most people of low incomes in developed countries?
Minus the medical science of course?

the_barfly1

Ok, havent read through the entire thread, just want to let anybody with sky TV know that Zeitgeist is being shown on Sky Channel 200 (EMTV) this sunday 15th at 8pm, and Addendum on the same channel the following night at 8pm. The first screening of these films on UK/Irish tv.

Looking forward to seeing them without having to squint at a laptop screen