Over 1,200 licensed guns stolen in five years

eroo

09/12/2008 - 17:44:16
More than 1,200 licensed guns have fallen into the hands of criminals over the past five years, it was revealed tonight.

The stark figures emerged after detectives arrested a sixth teenager over the shooting dead of widower Aidan O’Kane in Dublin.

The 16-year-old was detained at Whitehall Garda station in the city’s northside while five others aged between 13 and 19 years remain in custody.

The killing has been branded a watershed that demands unprecedented action to stamp out Ireland’s surging gun culture.

But Justice Minister Dermot Ahern tonight insisted it was not just politicians and gardai who were responsible for taking weapons off the streets.

“The fact that young people were involved is extremely worrying, not just from a policing point of view, but from a societal point of view,” he said.

“We have to ask ourselves how do these young people get these guns.

“This is not just a question for politicians but all sectors of society and we must question ourselves as to what kind of society we want.”

Official records from Mr Ahern show 1,263 registered firearms – including 27 handguns – have been stolen since 2003.

Only 373 of these have been recovered and the minister admits it is impossible to say how many stolen handguns are used in crime, because weapons are not always found.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Sinn Féin’s justice spokesman who obtained the figures in a written Dáil question, said they underscored the need for a tightening up of gun laws.

“The murder of Aidan O’Kane must serve as an eye opener for the Government which sparks them into action,” he said.

“We need to face up to the fact that Irish society is facing a growing crisis particularly when we realise that young teenagers are carrying guns.”

Mr Ahern said he has been fighting almost on his own against the surging gun culture – whether licensed or unlicensed – over the past few months.

The minister revealed new figures from the Garda’s Operation Anvil against organised crime which show that 1,192 firearms have been seized since May 2005.

The long-running investigation has also seen 126 murder arrests.

“We are never going to totally eradicate crime that is the reality,” said Mr Ahern.

“What we have to do is give the resources to those whose job it is to tackle crime and prevent it happening.

“In fairness to the Gardaí, while there have been a number of high profile cases there are also a lot of very low profile cases and situations which do not come to court where they have stopped crime from happening.”

Mr O’Kane, a 50-year-old father of one, was chasing youths for throwing eggs at his home on Shelmalier Road, East Wall, when one pulled a handgun and fired a single fatal bullet into his stomach.

Detectives yesterday detained four male youths, aged 13, 15, 16 and 18, and a 19-year-old woman under section 30 of the Offences Against The State Act.

Last night, the periods of detention for the four youngest suspects were extended for a further 24 hours.

The killing is the 20th gun murder this year and came less than a month after rugby player Shane Geoghegan was gunned down in Limerick when gangland criminals mistook him for their intended target.

Interesting stuff.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055419497

Odysseus

I have to say and its just my opinion but that is terrible. A innocent man is killed and the focus is being directed towards stolen firearms. I doubt that the poor chap was done with one of those 27 handguns. Aengus O' Snodaigh calling for gun control, a tad ironic I find.

metman

I was surprised when I discovered the gun laws were so drastically relaxed at home after 2003. When I was growing up you couldn't even own a spud gun!

Whilst I don't have an issue with people owning weapons, provided the relevant procedures are in place, what would worry me is that, as is visible from this article, there are a high number of military grade weapons in the possession of joe public and yet the police don't even get CS spray!??? :rolleyes:

Gun laws are much tighter here post Dunblane.

budda15c

To be honest this argument has been flogged to death all over the place. The entire argument towards banning legally held handguns in an attempt to curb gun crime is b0ll0x. Its a complete cop out in an attempt to fool the public (the majority of whom have no clue about guns) into thinking that something major is been done to combat gun crime.

Anybody who has been lucky enough to get a licence for a handgun has been deemed responsible enough and fit to own such a firearm by their local superintendant. Also if you have spent a small fortune and spent months and in some cases well over a year to obtain a handgun legally, then your not going to leave it lying around for some scrote to break into your home and take it.

If your a career criminal why would you bother your arse breaking into a house to steal a gun, when you can just as easily buy one illegally or have gotten a half dozen as a 'sweetener' on a big deal.

Metman: by 'military grade weapons' I take it you mean a Glock, which seems to be a dirty word at the moment. The people who own legally licenced Glock 17's are not the people that everyone needs to be worrying about, as there not going to be the one's confronting the OC weilding Gardai.. Its the scumbag who got one of the nice new Glock's being smuggled into the country.

It is, I agree absolutely apauling the amount of innocent people who have been murdered in cold blood with the aid of firearms in recent years. And I doubt anyone will disagree with the fact that the problem needs to be tackled aggressively. BUT penalising the responsible, law abiding gun owners in an attempt to divert attention from the real issue is not the answer.

metman

budda15c wrote: »

Metman: by 'military grade weapons' I take it you mean a Glock, which seems to be a dirty word at the moment. The people who own legally licenced Glock 17's are not the people that everyone needs to be worrying about, as there not going to be the one's confronting the OC weilding Gardai.. Its the scumbag who got one of the nice new Glock's being smuggled into the country.

I used the term, as it encompasses a number of weapons that are privately owned, not just Glocks. As I said, I don't personally have a problem with private ownership of weapons, provided checks and balances are in place. Despite this there's no arguiing with the figures; 1,200 licensed weapons have been stolen. Were you to enact a zero gun license policy for joe public, then that'd be 1200 less in the hands of criminals no? You mention the criminal fraternity getting them anyway, through the underworld/black market/gangland/whatever you want to call it, well guess what? A part of this armoury includes stolen weapons that were legally held (obviously).

And no, it may not be the legally held gun owner confronting the (any day soon, possibly, maybe) OC equipped copper, it'll be a scrote armed, potentially, with one of 1200 stolen weapons.

I think its all too easy for the 'target shooting' enthusiast that wants to own a Glock or Sig or even a Desert Eagle to spout on about how they're being victimised by tighter gun control, however, as someone who may well be on the wrong end of your stolen weapon, I'm all in favour of tight gun control.

brendansmith

if the guards dont have guns, no one should.

Families get devistated but gun turf wars.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

I used the term, as it encompasses a number of weapons that are privately owned, not just Glocks. As I said, I don't personally have a problem with private ownership of weapons, provided checks and balances are in place. Despite this there's no arguiing with the figures; 1,200 licensed weapons have been stolen. Were you to enact a zero gun license policy for joe public, then that'd be 1200 less in the hands of criminals no? You mention the criminal fraternity getting them anyway, through the underworld/black market/gangland/whatever you want to call it, well guess what? A part of this armoury includes stolen weapons that were legally held (obviously).

And no, it may not be the legally held gun owner confronting the (any day soon, possibly, maybe) OC equipped copper, it'll be a scrote armed, potentially, with one of 1200 stolen weapons.

I think its all too easy for the 'target shooting' enthusiast that wants to own a Glock or Sig or even a Desert Eagle to spout on about how they're being victimised by tighter gun control, however, as someone who may well be on the wrong end of your stolen weapon, I'm all in favour of tight gun control.

Firstly, I don't like the accusation of 'your gun', as it implies that I am irresponsible in the manner which I store my firearm. I can pretty much guarantee neither you or anyone else will ever be on the wrong end of my firearm, as I securely store it, and if it was stolen it would be little more than wood and metal and would be virtually useless as anything other than some sort of club.

By the military grade weapons then would i be right to assume that you mean specifically semi-auto pistols.

Yes 1,200 guns stolen, but that 1,200 includes target pistols, air rifles and starter/blank fire pistols. It also includes firearms which have been stolen/misplaced from Garda custody. It would be interesting to see an exact breakdown of the figures, rather than just this one off figure.

I believe that the firearms licencing laws and regulations in this country are by no means lax and these fire arms are not being handed out willy nilly. Also it is a Garda Superintendant who decides if a person is fit to own a firearm.

Also I'm not spouting on about being victimised, but I am making the point that taking legally held firearms from law abiding citizens is not the answer to eradicating gun crime in Ireland and personally I think it will do very little to reduce it.

Do you honestly believe that banning these firearms will solve our gun crime problems.

As regards Abbeylara, that was not a case of a scumbag stealing a gun, that was a man with a mental illness, so that can't really be referenced to my point of some scrote stealing a firearm, as it wasn't a stolen firearm.

As a gun owner I believe that anyone who is not up to scratch with the secure storage of their firearm should simply have their licence revoked.

budda15c

brendansmith wrote: »

if the guards dont have guns, no one should.

Families get devistated but gun turf wars.

Innocent people are killed and famalies devastated as a result of gun crime and I agree that this is unacceptable. But simply banning firearms because the Gardai do not have them is not the answer. The people who want firearms to commit crimes will still get them. Simply outlawing firearms will not stop them falling into the hands of criminals.

utick

i dont see how banning guns is going to make any difference to the crimials getting them, surely if they want them if would be easier to ship them in with the next batch of drugs rather than going breaking into houses and maybe not even finding any guns

flyton5

to be fair this issue has been argued for so long that it almost pointless....u can take guns off everyone and the scum will still manage to bring them in.....then u can decide that its time to arm all members of AGS but as soon as they shoot someone we have a tribunal discuss the matter for months/years and all it does is generate bad feeling towards members.....i accept that AGS was formed as an unarmed policing body but this was 1922....things have changed and things need to change fast......any high ranks here......maybe someone can get onto Fachtna and have a word about getting me a Sig....i'l take a Heckler and Koch as well if there's any spares lying about....i reckon it'd be more effective than pepper spray: "lie on the ground....i have pepper spray and know how to use it!!!" OR "lie on the ground....i have an assault rifle which could go off at any minute!!!"

metman

budda15c wrote: »

As regards Abbeylara, that was not a case of a scumbag stealing a gun, that was a man with a mental illness, so that can't really be referenced to my point of some scrote stealing a firearm, as it wasn't a stolen firearm.

My point in using Abbeylara was that it isn't always illegally held firearms that are pointed at police.

TheNog

I reckon that the majority of firearm thefts that have occured were purely opportunist in that a criminal burgles a house and finds the weapon. Any stolen weapon will get them a guaranteed sum of cash for them.

Banning handguns will do nothing for the escalation of gun crime that we are experiencing. Security features such as monitored house alarm and gun safes are not enough in my book. A house alarm going off is largely ignored by people and believe it or not when a Garda Station gets a call from the alarm company there is no details of directions or key holder given. So when I am responding to an alarm in the country all I have is a name and townsland. Hardly helpful at 4am and people it has happened.

A gun safe is really only a good idea when trying to keep children away from the firearms. If someone breaks into your home, they simply will go after you to get the key or combination. If you are not willing to give up the key or combination, then expect violence to be visited on you!!!!!

It is a difficult issue to come to terms with but I would suggest that firearms such as pistols are stored in your Garda District HQ. The station is open 24hrs so can be easily accessble, you go in and show your licence with photo ID and sign out your firearm. When returning from a competition or practice you sign the pistol back in for storage.


What do ye think?

Rew

There a few things that arn't obvious in that article. The break down of the 27 handguns is very unclear. We have a very strict definition of a firearm in this country which means that air pistols and starter pistols are included. The Gardai "lose" a decent number of pistols which are more then likely included in that 27 figure. As a pistol owner I have never heard of a fullbore pistol being stolen to date. Most if not all of the pistols in this country are in a safe, protected by a monitored alarm, on a 24h zone with sepaerate codes and duress codes. Not worth the risk to try steal them when you can get them on the black market easily.

Dunblane, Abbbylara and other tragic incidents do get mentioned alot. Its worth remembering that the police/gardai could have prevented those incidents before they started. But the posability of a legal gun getting pointed at the Gardai is always going to be there. Incidents like that are very very rare in this country. I would say that Gardai are threatened with knives every day. A good few have neen stabbed and slashed. Needles are abit problem as well yet when the Gov bought them stab vests they bout ones that are stab prrof, offer balistic protection up to 9mm BUT they wont stop a needle!

We actually have very strict firearms laws here but how they are applied by the Gardai/DoJ is the real problem. It varies compleatly between Garda districts.

Vegeta

JonAnderton wrote: »

I think conversions and imports are the biggest worry. As we've seen before, it's easier for governments to make a public show of "look what we're doing" by banning legally held firearms, then actually preventing the real problem. No one can say gun enabaled crime has been reduced since the Hand gun ban back in the '90's.

If you are talking about the ban in England, handgun crime has risen there by something like 500-700% since.

Handguns were banned in Ireland from 1972 (there were actually more handguns per capita back then) until circa 2004 because of the troubles in the North. Banning them didn't work then, it wont work now.

Funny considering the North have never banned them.

Complete cop out by the Minister who is obviously way out of his depth.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

My point in using Abbeylara was that it isn't always illegally held firearms that are pointed at police.

Ok I concede that it was a legally held firearm, but the issue and the title of the thread refers to stolen firearms. This was a gun in the hands of a man, who clearly shouldn't have had one.

What interests me is that out of my entire post, the only point you have addressed s abbeylara. You still haven't said what you class as these military grade weapons. Or the claim about my firearm.

Also again; do you honestly believe this ban will reduce gun crime.

budda15c

TheNog wrote: »

I reckon that the majority of firearm thefts that have occured were purely opportunist in that a criminal burgles a house and finds the weapon. Any stolen weapon will get them a guaranteed sum of cash for them.

Banning handguns will do nothing for the escalation of gun crime that we are experiencing. Security features such as monitored house alarm and gun safes are not enough in my book. A house alarm going off is largely ignored by people and believe it or not when a Garda Station gets a call from the alarm company there is no details of directions or key holder given. So when I am responding to an alarm in the country all I have is a name and townsland. Hardly helpful at 4am and people it has happened.

A gun safe is really only a good idea when trying to keep children away from the firearms. If someone breaks into your home, they simply will go after you to get the key or combination. If you are not willing to give up the key or combination, then expect violence to be visited on you!!!!!

It is a difficult issue to come to terms with but I would suggest that firearms such as pistols are stored in your Garda District HQ. The station is open 24hrs so can be easily accessble, you go in and show your licence with photo ID and sign out your firearm. When returning from a competition or practice you sign the pistol back in for storage.


What do ye think?

I agree with you on the opportunistic theft of firearms.. Many of these thefts may be of old shotguns left lying in the corner of a wardrobe, etc. Owned by people who have no interest in having a firearm and haven't fired it in maybe years. They just keep renewing their licence every year because it costs so little and the firearm isn't worth selling. IMO, if you don't have it securely stored, you ain't keeping it..


If you have a safe, I think it should be concealed and hidden from view, so as if some crook does break into your home, there's less chance of him finding it.

I personally wouldn't be a fan of the idea of having to turn my handgun (if i owned one) into the District HQ every time I was finished using it. As I see it, its as simple as, if you don't have it securely stored you don't get to keep it.

Rew

budda15c wrote: »

I personally wouldn't be a fan of the idea of having to turn my handgun (if i owned one) into the District HQ every time I was finished using it. As I see it, its as simple as, if you don't have it securely stored you don't get to keep it.

Considering the fact that 2 handguns handed in during the amnesty "walked" out of a Garda station and in to a criminals posession Im not sure I would be comfortable with the gun being held in the station either.

metman

budda15c wrote: »

Ok I concede that it was a legally held firearm, but the issue and the title of the thread refers to stolen firearms. This was a gun in the hands of a man, who clearly shouldn't have had one.

What interests me is that out of my entire post, the only point you have addressed s abbeylara. You still haven't said what you class as these military grade weapons. Or the claim about my firearm.

Also again; do you honestly believe this ban will reduce gun crime.

Buddha, just to clear up, perhaps I should have used "one's gun" as opposed to "yours" as I don't know you or if you own firearms.

Military grade weapons are military calibre weapons such as 9mm, .45 etc, i.e, glocks, sigs etc.

I don't think a change in legislation will have any impact on gun enabled crime. I've policed areas with extremely high levels of gun crime and our gun controls are tighter than those in the Republic and they have made no difference to gun crime.

However, I fail to see why any member of the public should be allowed to keep a pistol in their home. If you want to sport shoot weapons, then store them at the range or at a police station. As I have already stated, I am not anti-gun, firearms are an interest of mine on both professional and sporting fronts, however there is no justification, in my view, for private citizens to have firearms such as glock pistols, .357 magnums, sig etc in their own homes in the UK or Ireland.

Rew

metman wrote: »

Military grade weapons are military calibre weapons such as 9mm, .45 etc, i.e, glocks, sigs etc.

You cannt classify firearms by make and caliber as military. Most if not all manufacturers make firearms for both markets and there is no caliber that is exclusive to either civil or military shooting.

metman

Rew wrote: »

You cannt classify firearms by make and caliber as military. Most if not all manufacturers make firearms for both markets and there is no caliber that is exclusive to either civil or military shooting.

I used the term military grade weapons, i.e weapons that are used by the military, such as 9mm, .45 calibre, i.e, Glock, Sig, Beretta. If you wan't to be pedantic, sure, if you go to the US you can buy everything up to a .50 cal sniper rifle aimed at the 'civilian' market, but we're not, as a society, quite at that level of stupidity (one hopes).

budda15c

metman wrote: »

Buddha, just to clear up, perhaps I should have used "one's gun" as opposed to "yours" as I don't know you or if you own firearms.

Military grade weapons are military calibre weapons such as 9mm, .45 etc, i.e, glocks, sigs etc.

I don't think a change in legislation will have any impact on gun enabled crime. I've policed areas with extremely high levels of gun crime and our gun controls are tighter than those in the Republic and they have made no difference to gun crime.

However, I fail to see why any member of the public should be allowed to keep a pistol in their home. If you want to sport shoot weapons, then store them at the range or at a police station. As I have already stated, I am not anti-gun, firearms are an interest of mine on both professional and sporting fronts, however there is no justification, in my view, for private citizens to have firearms such as glock pistols, .357 magnums, sig etc in their own homes in the UK or Ireland.

I do own a firearm, but not a handgun. As i stated in an earlier post, there is virtually no chance you will ever be looking at the wrong end of my gun..

So by military grade you mean large caliber handguns such as .45, 9mm, .38, .357 etc. In saying that do you believe that people should be allowed to keep smaller caliber semi-auto handguns, which are chambered for a smaller round such as .22lr, the sig mosquito for example. A firearm which would achieve just as devastating an outcome if in the wrong hands and used from a close range..

Agreed so, that this proposed change is simply to give the perception that something major is being done to tackle gun crime. When in reality it will have little or no effect.

Why do you believe that people shouldn't be allowed to keep these handguns, which they own legally in their homes. How much safer do you think handguns would be stored in a pistol club or Garda station.

Rew

Im not being pedantic but what is the definition of "military grade weapons"? If its calibers and manufacturers that the military use then there is nothing left.

metman

Rew - you just answered your own question there. If you're unhappy with that, I refer you to my earlier answer, otherwise we'll be here all day.

Buddha - I can't comment on the 'why' behind the legislation, as I'm not a politician. Will it have any effect on gun enabled crime, most probably not. As regards weapons being stored at home and calibre; my view is I'm not keen on any pistol being stored at home.

And why is a police station or range better than a home? Range staff and cops are less likely to be careless, get drunk in charge of a weapon (I've never been called to a domestic at a police station or range where I've been warned that the occupier has access to a firearm) etc and physical security will always be superior. Simple enough really.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

Rew - you just answered your own question there. If you're unhappy with that, I refer you to my earlier answer, otherwise we'll be here all day.

Buddha - I can't comment on the 'why' behind the legislation, as I'm not a politician. Will it have any effect on gun enabled crime, most probably not. As regards weapons being stored at home and calibre; my view is I'm not keen on any pistol being stored at home.

And why is a police station or range better than a home? Range staff and cops are less likely to be careless, get drunk in charge of a weapon (I've never been called to a domestic at a police station or range where I've been warned that the occupier has access to a firearm) etc and physical security will always be superior. Simple enough really.

Your original argument was against "military grade" large caliber handguns. I asked would you have a problem with smaller caliber handguns, are you saying now that you think there should be no handguns.

As regards your comment of people getting a hold of a firearm during a domestic. A shotgun poses equally as big a risk, are you saying that people should be banned from keeping any firearm in their homes. Also if an enraged person is determined to get hold of a weapon during a drunken domestic, they will get hold of a weapon, such as a knife.

If there is a range, which is full of handguns, all conveniently stored in one place, do you not think it is only a matter of time before a gang comes up with the idea of knocking the place off. Also by physical security do you mean people or Gardai in a Garda station.

Do you think Garda Stations all over the country are equiped to act as 'armories' to hold maybe a couple of dozen handguns, which belong to others.

Rew

metman wrote: »

Rew - you just answered your own question there. If you're unhappy with that, I refer you to my earlier answer, otherwise we'll be here all day.

You haven't given me any answer. What you say makes no sense. You ok with firearms ownership but not military grade ones which you define as anything a military has used which is everything from shotguns to .22 to .50cal. It leaves nothing. There is no such thing as military grade firearms. Rifles used by ount Army were tunred down as unsuitable by another. Some countires have used specfically civilian firearms. If everything is military grade then would it no preclude civil police form using them? The whole military caliber/;military gun thing gets rolled out as a catch all but in reality its a figment of peoples imagination.

Also if you think that Gardai are less likely to get drunk while in charge of a firearm or be careless you have a big shock coming... As I said earlier the Gardai have lost multiple firearms very carelessly and 2 detectives got drunk while armed and on duty outside the us Embassy and started figting with each other!

The general security requirments for holding a pistol more then adiquate to stop a pistol being stolen from a house as long as those requirments are universaly applied and followed. The problem ATM is that differnat Garda districts follow differnat guidelines.

metman

budda15c wrote: »

Your original argument was against "military grade" large caliber handguns. I asked would you have a problem with smaller caliber handguns, are you saying now that you think there should be no handguns.

As regards your comment of people getting a hold of a firearm during a domestic. A shotgun poses equally as big a risk, are you saying that people should be banned from keeping any firearm in their homes. Also if an enraged person is determined to get hold of a weapon during a drunken domestic, they will get hold of a weapon, such as a knife.

If there is a range, which is full of handguns, all conveniently stored in one place, do you not think it is only a matter of time before a gang comes up with the idea of knocking the place off. Also by physical security do you mean people or Gardai in a Garda station.

Do you think Garda Stations all over the country are equiped to act as 'armories' to hold maybe a couple of dozen handguns, which belong to others.

I originally said I was surprised and somewhat concerned that a large number of military grade pistols were now in the hands of joe public. I am not in favour of any pistol being kept in a private citizens home, regardless of calibre, however I do not see an issue with smaller calibre pistols being used for sport shooting, target shooting provided they're stored at a range/police station.

As regards physical security, the term refers to doors, walls, locks, bolts, i.e physical security measures.

Are Garda stations equipped? I know that many Garda stations aren't equipped to house serving Gardai, let alone store firearms. However, this doesn't mean that money shouldn't or couldn't be spent. I've worked out of a number of stations that have had armouries.

metman

Rew wrote: »

Also if you think that Gardai are less likely to get drunk while in charge of a firearm or be careless you have a big shock coming... As I said earlier the Gardai have lost multiple firearms very carelessly and 2 detectives got drunk while armed and on duty outside the us Embassy and started figting with each other!

The general security requirments for holding a pistol more then adiquate to stop a pistol being stolen from a house as long as those requirments are universaly applied and followed. The problem ATM is that differnat Garda districts follow differnat guidelines.

So you're saying that because, in your view, An Garda Siochana is incompetent, it adds weight to the argument that private citizens being allowed to store firearms in their own abode?

Rew

metman wrote: »

So you're saying that because, in your view, An Garda Siochana is incompetent, it adds weight to the argument that private citizens being allowed to store firearms in their own abode?

No what im saying is that your suggestion isn't as perfect as you made it out to be. The security mesures taken in indvidules homes are IMHO better then those that would be taken in a Garda station if firearms were being stored there.

metman

Rew wrote: »

No what im saying is that your suggestion isn't as perfect as you made it out to be. The security mesures taken in indvidules homes are IMHO better then those that would be taken in a Garda station if firearms were being stored there.

Have you ever been in a police or military armoury?

Rew

metman wrote: »

Have you ever been in a police or military armoury?

Yes many many times. Iv been tasked with protecting military ones many times. Its not the doors and locks that keep military armouries safe its the armed soldiers.

metman

Exactly. Same with police stations. The physical security measures are one thing, but the personnel are another factor!

Rew

Garda stations dont opperate the same as military armouries. If they were able to store firearms in the way your describing they would have when firearms were taken in the 70's, Instead all those firearms went to the army. I will mmake a notable exception to that which is the Park but I think its physical proximity to McKee is a big factor as well.

During the recent amnisity firearms were just put in rooms or standard document lockers.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

I originally said I was surprised and somewhat concerned that a large number of military grade pistols were now in the hands of joe public. I am not in favour of any pistol being kept in a private citizens home, regardless of calibre, however I do not see an issue with smaller calibre pistols being used for sport shooting, target shooting provided they're stored at a range/police station.

As regards physical security, the term refers to doors, walls, locks, bolts, i.e physical security measures.

Are Garda stations equipped? I know that many Garda stations aren't equipped to house serving Gardai, let alone store firearms. However, this doesn't mean that money shouldn't or couldn't be spent. I've worked out of a number of stations that have had armouries.

To be honest I don't see how they would be any safer stored in ranges or Garda stations. If they are securely stored in a safe, which is concealed in a house out of view and alarmed. They are as safe as they are going to be in either a station or a range.

If this is the defenition of physical security, then a house provides all of these.

As you have said yourself, many Garda Stations are not equipped to house serving members, nevermind securely house firearms which belong to citizens. If money is a problem, for providing secure storage for these handguns then is it not better to allow the gun owner incur the cost by equiping their own home under guidelines issued by the Gardai for the secure storage of such a firearm.

Money is always a huge issue, the government is not providing the Gardai with the necessary money and resources they need at the moment, so why would they spend money turning Garda stations into armouries to store firearms belonging to the public.

You say you have worked out of a number of stations which have had armouries. I take it you mean London MPS stations, which will already have armouries to hold their own firearms, would this be correct. This is a very different situation to that of Garda Stations throughout Ireland.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

Exactly. Same with police stations. The physical security measures are one thing, but the personnel are another factor!

But this is very different to the situation in the UK, where there may be a large number of armed officers in a station. In a Garda station, which is not in a large urban area, you may only have a couple of armed officers in a station and they may not all be there at once.

You would have to maintain a constant armed prescence in a station. Unarmed members may not even be comfortable being in a station which may have a couple of dozen handguns unsecurely stored within. Especially when it is common knowledge that the firearms are being stored there.

metman

budda15c wrote: »

You say you have worked out of a number of stations which have had armouries. I take it you mean London MPS stations, which will already have armouries to hold their own firearms, would this be correct. This is a very different situation to that of Garda Stations throughout Ireland.

Garda stations dont opperate the same as military armouries. If they were able to store firearms in the way your describing they would have when firearms were taken in the 70's, Instead all those firearms went to the army. I will mmake a notable exception to that which is the Park but I think its physical proximity to McKee is a big factor as well. During the recent amnisity firearms were just put in rooms or standard document lockers.

Rew/Buddha - Perhaps this is where our viewpoints diverge! The Police stations here that have armouries (be they City, Met, Surrey, Essex Police) are not soft targets and any criminal gang intent on relieving such a station of its weapons would fail, of this I have little doubt.

I cannot comment on the Garda equivalent as my experience of policing in Eire is nil, though I did spend time in the PDF so am au fait with military practice (albeit of many moons ago).

Rew

metman wrote: »

Rew/Buddha - Perhaps this is where our viewpoints diverge! The Police stations here that have armouries (be they City, Met, Surrey, Essex Police) are not soft targets and any criminal gang intent on relieving such a station of its weapons would fail, of this I have little doubt.

Different worlds alright.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

Rew/Buddha - Perhaps this is where our viewpoints diverge! The Police stations here that have armouries (be they City, Met, Surrey, Essex Police) are not soft targets and any criminal gang intent on relieving such a station of its weapons would fail, of this I have little doubt.

I cannot comment on the Garda equivalent as my experience of policing in Eire is nil, though I did spend time in the PDF so am au fait with military practice (albeit of many moons ago).

Thank you, my point exactly. Garda stations up and down the country simply would not be equipped to store these firearms. And if they are to be stored in a club or range, all in one place, what is to stop some gang from knocking off one of these clubs as there would be a large amount of handguns stored there.

This is one of the points I have been trying to make, that there is not a feasible or viable alternative to securely storing firearms other than in your home, in this country.

And you have also agreed earlier that simply banning these handguns will achieve nothing and you said you are not against gun ownership.

So I think thats pretty much proved the two points I was trying to make.

calvary

budda15c wrote: »

To be honest this argument has been flogged to death all over the place. The entire argument towards banning legally held handguns in an attempt to curb gun crime is b0ll0x. Its a complete cop out in an attempt to fool the public (the majority of whom have no clue about guns) into thinking that something major is been done to combat gun crime.

Anybody who has been lucky enough to get a licence for a handgun has been deemed responsible enough and fit to own such a firearm by their local superintendant. Also if you have spent a small fortune and spent months and in some cases well over a year to obtain a handgun legally, then your not going to leave it lying around for some scrote to break into your home and take it.

If your a career criminal why would you bother your arse breaking into a house to steal a gun, when you can just as easily buy one illegally or have gotten a half dozen as a 'sweetener' on a big deal.

Metman: by 'military grade weapons' I take it you mean a Glock, which seems to be a dirty word at the moment. The people who own legally licenced Glock 17's are not the people that everyone needs to be worrying about, as there not going to be the one's confronting the OC weilding Gardai.. Its the scumbag who got one of the nice new Glock's being smuggled into the country.

It is, I agree absolutely apauling the amount of innocent people who have been murdered in cold blood with the aid of firearms in recent years. And I doubt anyone will disagree with the fact that the problem needs to be tackled aggressively. BUT penalising the responsible, law abiding gun owners in an attempt to divert attention from the real issue is not the answer.

Budda 15c seems to have got the idea of wat is really goin on ere!!!Glad sumone else recogniss it!!!

metman

budda15c wrote: »

Thank you, my point exactly.

Woah there Silver! My experience is not that of an AGS member. However we have many of those on this forum who may see fit to contribute and attest to the state of play of Garda armouries, and if they're fit for purpose as outlined here. Even so, this does nothing to answer the potential for pistol clubs to store weapons.

TBH even if AGS current situation is not up to scratch, funding to make it so would, in my view, be preferable to home ownership.

If it makes you feel better, then sure, legislative change won't prevent innocent people getting murdered, robbed, raped at gunpoint.

Not really a victory for anyone is it?

Rew

metman wrote: »

TBH even if AGS current situation is not up to scratch, funding to make it so would, in my view, be preferable to home ownership.

Tiger kidnapping is big here so I would imagine that they would just do that and clear out the club and get hundreds of guns for their efforts. Private armed secuity would be against the law here AFAIK.

If indvidules have the guns as they do now then an indvidule robbery even with alot of intel on the target is only likely to net one or 2 firearms. Is 2 firearms worth the risk?

A drugs shipment was nabbed a couple of months ago with 50 firearms including MP5s and supressors to fit the pistols and MP5's. After most shootings here the criminals will burn the guns with the car used in the attack. This would indicate to me that indvidule guns have little value to them.

budda15c

metman wrote: »

Woah there Silver! My experience is not that of an AGS member. However we have many of those on this forum who may see fit to contribute and attest to the state of play of Garda armouries, and if they're fit for purpose as outlined here. Even so, this does nothing to answer the potential for pistol clubs to store weapons.

TBH even if AGS current situation is not up to scratch, funding to make it so would, in my view, be preferable to home ownership.

If it makes you feel better, then sure, legislative change won't prevent innocent people getting murdered, robbed, raped at gunpoint.

Not really a victory for anyone is it?

Not a victory by any means, I'm not claiming it is..

But if you read my post again, what I said is there is no viable or feasible alternative to gun storage, other than storing them in the home. Maybe in the future if the facilities are there within a Garda station to store these firearms securely, there will be a case to be made for it, which personally I still wouldn't agree with. But it may be a viable alternative.

You say if the stations are not up to scratch then spend money & provide the funding. This again is not a viable/feasible solution as the money is not there, simple as.

Your main point for storing these firearms away from the home, were so as they could not be used during a domestic.. The storage of these firearms in a pistol range or Garda station will not stop them being used in murders and robberies on the street.

As regards making me feel better about the legislation not changing anything, thanks for the consideration and thought, but we established that quiet a few posts back.

budda15c

Rew wrote: »

Tiger kidnapping is big here so I would imagine that they would just do that and clear out the club and get hundreds of guns for their efforts. Private armed secuity would be against the law here AFAIK.

If indvidules have the guns as they do now then an indvidule robbery even with alot of intel on the target is only likely to net one or 2 firearms. Is 2 firearms worth the risk?

A drugs shipment was nabbed a couple of months ago with 50 firearms including MP5s and supressors to fit the pistols and MP5's. After most shootings here the criminals will burn the guns with the car used in the attack. This would indicate to me that indvidule guns have little value to them.

+1

My point exactly. If they do manage to rob a gun from a home they may get one or two and for the most part its not worth their while. If they are to rob a club, where handguns have to be stored it is a more attractive option, as they are almost guaranteed to get a large quantity.

calvary

[quote=

Your main point for storing these firearms away from the home, were so as they could not be used during a domestic.. The storage of these firearms in a pistol range or Garda station will not stop them being used in murders and robberies on the street.

I believe dis is vital in the discussion of whether or not fire arms should be stored in the home....Storin of fire arms in garda stations wont make a difference to the amount of deaths caused on the streets!!!There is little or few reports of personal firearms being used in domestics...wat we have to worry bout is the amount of illegal handheld firearms.

Eru

A ban on firearms being held would reduce the amount in criminal hands by 1200. It would also reduce the possibility of someone using a legally held firearm against other people. Before anyone attacks me, I know this is rare but it has and possible will happen again.

Also, lets not fool ourselves here, its not only international drug cartels that have guns. Plenty of small timers are using firearms to rob post offices, betting shops and even petty newsagent till snatches.

budda15c

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

A ban on firearms being held would reduce the amount in criminal hands by 1200. It would also reduce the possibility of someone using a legally held firearm against other people. Before anyone attacks me, I know this is rare but it has and possible will happen again.

Also, lets not fool ourselves here, its not only international drug cartels that have guns. Plenty of small timers are using firearms to rob post offices, betting shops and even petty newsagent till snatches.

Agreed. but these small time crooks are still able to buy guns which have been illegally smuggled into the country by bigger, more influential criminals.

Also this 1,200 figure that is being thrown around includes target pistols, cross-bows, starter/blankfire pistols and air rifles. A breakdown of these figures would really be useful, but then again if it was broken down it wouldn't make for such a drastic reaction.

Also this figure includes firearms stolen/lost from Garda custody. A blanket ban on firearms would not stop these guns from being stolen/lost.

When you say it would prevent someone using a legally held firearm against someone, if a person really wants to cause harm to another person, they will find an alternative if they do not own a firearm, they can easily obtain a knife, a bat or a car.

Eru

budda15c wrote: »

Agreed. but these small time crooks are still able to buy guns which have been illegally smuggled into the country by bigger, more influential criminals.

Also this 1,200 figure that is being thrown around includes target pistols, cross-bows, starter/blankfire pistols and air rifles. A breakdown of these figures would really be useful, but then again if it was broken down it wouldn't make for such a drastic reaction.

Also this figure includes firearms stolen/lost from Garda custody. A blanket ban on firearms would not stop these guns from being stolen/lost.

When you say it would prevent someone using a legally held firearm against someone, if a person really wants to cause harm to another person, they will find an alternative if they do not own a firearm, they can easily obtain a knife, a bat or a car.

A, Do you have any figure to show how many are from Gardai or is this just to try and give an impression that the vast majority are privately owned?

B, On that basis why not simple let everyone carry guns whenever they please? Sure if they are going to kill someone anyway then they may as well have an easy tool available.

Besides, I would rather face a baseball bat, car or knife over a firearm anyday.

budda15c

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

A, Do you have any figure to show how many are from Gardai or is this just to try and give an impression that the vast majority are privately owned?

B, On that basis why not simple let everyone carry guns whenever they please? Sure if they are going to kill someone anyway then they may as well have an easy tool available.

Besides, I would rather face a baseball bat, car or knife over a firearm anyday.

Unfortunately no, just as there are not any figures available as to the amount of stolen firearms used to commit crimes. I'm sure everyone would love to see a breakdown of these figures.

I'm not saying anyone should be allowed carry a firearm as they please. The point I'm making is banning firearms will neither stop people getting their hands on them, nor would it stop people committing murder or robbery..

JonAnderton

Being stolen from peoples homes... being stolen from Garda possession... Sure, lets just post them directly to people instead...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1093544/A-gun-grannys-post--rifle-meant-police-HQ-gets-lost-lost-mail.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Police-Machine-Gun-Lost-In-The-Post-Weapon-Sent-To-Grandma-In-Dorset-By-Mistake/Article/200812215176491?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15176491_Police_Machine_Gun_Lost_In_The_Post%3A_Weapon_Sent_To_Grandma_In_Dorset_By_Mistake

With the boards all becoming busy and interesting again, I might have to start making more regular posts...

Rew

Garda figures show 8 handguns were stolen in 2003 but there were no licences issued to private indvidules in 2003 so there's a bit of a question mark as to wher they came from.

2 handguns were handed in to a station during the gun amnesty last year and turned up a couple of weeks later when the apparment of a known criminal was searched (not for the guns they just happened to find them). The resaon they could come up with was they were accidentally thrown out with the rubish.

A Sig 9mm was stolen from a garda car on may day a couple of years ago and tuned up again later in a drugs operation.

A detective left a pistol in the toilets of the four courts and caused a security scare.

I often see briefcases on the back seats of unmarked cars (with no one in them). These are UZI sub machine guns in the standard issue case.

I've heard rumours that quite a few pistols have been stolen from detectives houses as they sometimes keep them at home. Thats rumours though.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Besides, I would rather face a baseball bat, car or knife over a firearm anyday.

Thats exactly what your would most likley face or a bottle or a golf club or just a fist. There all potentially leathal and will kill morepeople this year then guns. 2 fella's tried very hard to kill me with a 7up bottle one night in pub, they would have managed it too except for a couple of my friends. The point were trying to make is legal firearms represent a very small threat to the public. For example more people will die this year in car accidents then have been killed by firearms (excluding the toubles) in the last 10. A ban on all firearms will have no effect on crime. Ireland has a massive drug problem despite the fact that they are banned. Alcahol prohibition in the US in the 20's was a complete failure. We have to deal with the root caue of crime and not waste time on PR exercices by politicians.

The biggest problem ATM is that up untill this year there hs been no requirement to lock up gun in a safe. Most firearms owners do anyway but alot of the older generation don't hence the majority of stoilen firearms are shotguns.

Also on the subject of prefereces I would prefer to be shot with a handgun ahead of a sawn off shotgun any day and shotguns will never be bnned in the country will a farm still exists.

TheNog

Rew wrote: »

Considering the fact that 2 handguns handed in during the amnesty "walked" out of a Garda station and in to a criminals posession Im not sure I would be comfortable with the gun being held in the station either.

Linky for this?

budda15c wrote: »

How much safer do you think handguns would be stored in a pistol club or Garda station.

I don't believe a pistol club would be a safe place for storage but certainly a Garda Station would be, without doubt.

Anyone hear a caller to Gerry Ryan about 2-3 weeks ago praising Gardai who turned up to his house minutes after his car was taken? Well the car was recovered shortly afterwards but a week later that same was woken by another burglar who then put a chisel into his mouth just cos they wanted his car again!!! It is for peoples protection and safe storage is why I am suggesting storing handguns in Garda Stations.

Rew wrote: »

No what im saying is that your suggestion isn't as perfect as you made it out to be. The security mesures taken in indvidules homes are IMHO better then those that would be taken in a Garda station if firearms were being stored there.

I'm sorry but if you believe that a monitored house alarm and a safe are all you need then you are very much mistaken. A house alarm can be bypassed by an experienced burglar and to get access to your safe can be done by putting a chisel in your mouth or putting a hammer to one of your kids.

Rew wrote: »

During the recent amnisity firearms were just put in rooms or standard document lockers.

Rooms or lockers? Come on. All weapons we received were placed in our armory and when space ran out, they were put into a store room.

JonAnderton wrote: »

Being stolen from peoples homes... being stolen from Garda possession... Sure, lets just post them directly to people instead...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1093544/A-gun-grannys-post--rifle-meant-police-HQ-gets-lost-lost-mail.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Police-Machine-Gun-Lost-In-The-Post-Weapon-Sent-To-Grandma-In-Dorset-By-Mistake/Article/200812215176491?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15176491_Police_Machine_Gun_Lost_In_The_Post%3A_Weapon_Sent_To_Grandma_In_Dorset_By_Mistake

Jesus I would have wet myself with excitement!!!

JonAnderton wrote: »

With the boards all becoming busy and interesting again, I might have to start making more regular posts...

*shakes fist and says in a Homer voice* You'd better!!

Rew wrote: »

The point were trying to make is legal firearms represent a very small threat to the public.

That is true but there is nohing wrong with making that small threat even smaller.

Rew wrote: »

A ban on all firearms will have no effect on crime.

you have my vote there.

Rew wrote: »

The biggest problem ATM is that up untill this year there hs been no requirement to lock up gun in a safe. Most firearms owners do anyway but alot of the older generation don't hence the majority of stoilen firearms are shotguns.

I'm nearly sure it was from 2006 that safes were mandatory.


All I am saying is Yes don't ban handguns but at least make it alot more safer for the owners of handguns. For a criminal to get hold of information that a certain person has a handgun is quite simple really and all it would take is for that person to be followed home. The alarm can be simply by passed by forcing their way into your home some evening (alarm off) and forcing you to hand over the keys of the safe. Can you imagine the trauma you and your family could face?

What I would like to see is figures for how many of the thefts were actually Aggravated Burglaries.

I also think that people are putting too much faith into house alarms and especially safes.

Rew

TheNog wrote: »

Linky for this?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/amnesty-gun-falls-into-criminal-hands-123028.html

Rooms or lockers? Come on. All weapons we received were placed in our armory and when space ran out, they were put into a store room.

How many Garda staions have armouries? Sure evidence is kept in personal lockers, would it not be better to get evidence lockers ahead of storage for private firearms? Garda stations are not imune to breakins or Tiger style attacks. The difference is that instead of one gun you will get 50 or 100.

That is true but there is nohing wrong with making that small threat even smaller.

If we carry that logic through then we should make a list of the bigest threats to life and start at the top. We will have gotten rid of cars, motorbikes, sall sporting equipment, domestic knives, the government (not implementing the cervical cancer vacine) long, long, long before we come to legal firearms.

I'm nearly sure it was from 2006 that safes were mandatory.

Here's where the farce of it all shows up. Yes it was 2006 that the legislation was brought in BUT very litlle of it has been enacted. The minister doesn't need any new legislation to restict handguns its all in the 2006 act already, but if he makes new laws it sounds like he's doing more. All the provsions are there to have a very strict licenceing regime.

The Gardai haven't been updated on the changes. They were still teaching that nothing over a .22 was legal in Templemore up untill recently anyway. The Commissioner seems complealty unaware of his powers under that legislation.

All I am saying is Yes don't ban handguns but at least make it alot more safer for the owners of handguns. For a criminal to get hold of information that a certain person has a handgun is quite simple really and all it would take is for that person to be followed home. The alarm can be simply by passed by forcing their way into your home some evening (alarm off) and forcing you to hand over the keys of the safe. Can you imagine the trauma you and your family could face?

It has crossed my mind. Safes with handguns are on 24h zones and the alarm panels generally have duress codes.

What I would like to see is figures for how many of the thefts were actually Aggravated Burglaries.

I also think that people are putting too much faith into house alarms and especially safes.

Reading some of your posts im assuming your a memeber? How many successfull breaksins have you been to where there was an alarm that was on and how many where there was a monitored alarm that was on?

The safes arn't impenetrable but they will slow anyone trying to force them open right down.

Handguns are disposable items to criminals so why go to all that effort to steal 1 gun? I know they do it for cars but there is big money involved there and low punishment if caught.