Heat Pumps - post here.

MOTM

Latro wrote: »

Most of the benefits if not all are mitigated by extra costs involved with assessments, certifications, commissioning and extra expensive installation done by highly certified shortlisted installer.

...so is it worth doing it without certifications, commissioning etc by someone who is not qualified to do so?? Sounds like you'll get what you pay for!

john_doe.

GaryCocs wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Just wondering about some advice.

My uncle recommends converting to a heat pump as a decent investment.

Using roughly 1000 litres of kerosene a year in a B1 rated 2500 square foot well insulated house with radiators upstairs and down.

What kind of costs would we be talking about for an upgrade? Would a HRV be required?

Is there a potential ROI?

Nice one,
Gary

P.S. I'm wondering should I get an energy audit done on the place, any recommendations in Cork?

Looking at this also in Cork. Did you find any one that does energy audit. Want to get maybe a thermal scan done and measure air tightness.
House is C1 , so looking to improve insulation before going at a heat pump. The oil burner is very old though and does need replacing soon.

john_doe.

Was wondering given the amount of power outage this morning, do people have backups like a stove when using a heat pump?

Shaunoc

john_doe. wrote: »

Was wondering given the amount of power outage this morning, do people have backups like a stove when using a heat pump?

house should not cool down too quickly if power is out for a day or so as house should be well insulated and a good airtightness. Hot water & pump is a different story if power outage lasts.
With the sunshine here today, my house is gonna heat up regardless.
I have a wood burning stove more for aesthetics/ambiance but packs a punch if lit for a period of time (not too often)

Latro

john_doe. wrote: »

Was wondering given the amount of power outage this morning, do people have backups like a stove when using a heat pump?

Same as with oil, backboiler stove etc. They all need electricity to operate.
If you run power generator the heat pump obviously would require bigger one.

john_doe.

Latro wrote: »

Same as with oil, backboiler stove etc. They all need electricity to operate.
If you run power generator the heat pump obviously would require bigger one.

Well yes , you could I'd imagine operate a oil burner on much less power from a generator.

For a regular stove , least u would have warmth in a room with stove or fire lit.

I'm wondering worst case scenario where let's say there is snow/storm and electric is taken out for 4-5 days.

What would happen in this scenario for a heat pump heated house with no stove/open fire if temperature outsidr plummeted.

Also let's say the house was airtight with a HRV , and this was also without electricity.

Reason I ask is I have experienced electricity been out over 5 days.

Avonmore Mick

Hi. My air to Water Heat Pump in my utility smelly very badly of must/damp quite often. Has anyone else this problem? If so, is there a solution. Pump is installed 18 months into a new house.

soundskin

Latro wrote: »

Same as with oil, backboiler stove etc. They all need electricity to operate.
If you run power generator the heat pump obviously would require bigger one.

Never run a heat pump from a Geni unless you want to blow all the boards, inverters, soft starts etc.

soundskin

Avonmore Mick wrote: »

Hi. My air to Water Heat Pump in my utility smelly very badly of must/damp quite often. Has anyone else this problem? If so, is there a solution. The pump is installed 18 months into a new house.

I'd imagine more related to wastewater or some link from the safety valves to outside. Never came across a smell from a heat pump unless a component burnt out.

MENACE2010

Avonmore Mick wrote: »

Hi. My air to Water Heat Pump in my utility smelly very badly of must/damp quite often. Has anyone else this problem? If so, is there a solution. Pump is installed 18 months into a new house.

Check where the condensation water goes.. could be a build up of water or a leak .. rinse out the condensation tray with a warm water with a little bit of chlorine(toilet cleaner will do ) to clean out bacteria. Is there adequate ventilation in the utility.. is there anything else in the same room ? might not be the heatpump at all .

MENACE2010

john_doe. wrote: »

Well yes , you could I'd imagine operate a oil burner on much less power from a generator.

For a regular stove , least u would have warmth in a room with stove or fire lit.

I'm wondering worst case scenario where let's say there is snow/storm and electric is taken out for 4-5 days.

What would happen in this scenario for a heat pump heated house with no stove/open fire if temperature outsidr plummeted.

Also let's say the house was airtight with a HRV , and this was also without electricity.

Reason I ask is I have experienced electricity been out over 5 days.

you can run a storage heater on generator.. not the heat-pump as mentioned earlier.. we have back up stove downstairs for that purpose and for those winter nights where you wants some lovely fire

John.G

john_doe. wrote: »

Well yes , you could I'd imagine operate a oil burner on much less power from a generator.

For a regular stove , least u would have warmth in a room with stove or fire lit.

I'm wondering worst case scenario where let's say there is snow/storm and electric is taken out for 4-5 days.

What would happen in this scenario for a heat pump heated house with no stove/open fire if temperature outsidr plummeted.

Also let's say the house was airtight with a HRV , and this was also without electricity.

Reason I ask is I have experienced electricity been out over 5 days.

Yes, my oil fired boiler requires 116 watts (0.12 kw) to power the fan&oil pump so a 150 watt power DC/AC supply would give you heating even off a 12V car battery, a 10A battery draw (@120 watts) should give ~ 4 hrs contiuous firing, around 8 hrs with boiler cycling so you would get ~ 2 hrs heating/day for 4 days. BUT where do you start/stop with all these back up devices including the ridiculous cost of installing a stove as a back up, fine if you have a already installed one.
If you think that you are going to get regular long period power shortages then I would invest in a "SuperSer" bottle gas heater or kerosene fueled room heater. What do you do at the moment?.

dots104

Looking for some advice on what sort of space requirements indoors i need as we are at the beginning of design for a new house. Dont want to it to take over the utility room. Have most people gone with a separate hot water cylinder or a combined indoor unit? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Shaunoc

dots104 wrote: »

Looking for some advice on what sort of space requirements indoors i need as we are at the beginning of design for a new house. Dont want to it to take over the utility room. Have most people gone with a separate hot water cylinder or a combined indoor unit? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

mine (a danfoss) is just over 2 feet deep and around 3 feet wide (some piping makes it that wide in my setup). Height is floor to ceiling as there are bit and bobs above the unit (expansion tanks i guess). the unit itself is sized like a tall fridge - that includes the 160/180 lt tank.
what i lose in the utility, i have freed up in upstairs usual hot water closet space. I have that shelved out for plenty of storage (towels, blankets, baby stuff, more baby stuff, suit cases...).

dots104

Shaunoc wrote: »

mine (a danfoss) is just over 2 feet deep and around 3 feet wide (some piping makes it that wide in my setup). Height is floor to ceiling as there are bit and bobs above the unit (expansion tanks i guess). the unit itself is sized like a tall fridge - that includes the 160/180 lt tank.
what i lose in the utility, i have freed up in upstairs usual hot water closet space. I have that shelved out for plenty of storage (towels, blankets, baby stuff, more baby stuff, suit cases...).

Thanks. They always leave off the pipework and any other tanks off their nice brochures. How do you find the 180L tank? Enough for a family home? Seen some models up to 230L.

Shaunoc

dots104 wrote: »

Thanks. They always leave off the pipework and any other tanks off their nice brochures. How do you find the 180L tank? Enough for a family home? Seen some models up to 230L.

tank size is fine for our needs. just 3 in the house, with endless sinks of dishes every day, couple of showers. i think in the 2 ish years since, i noticed not hot water for a shower once or twice. cannot remember why, maybe guests at the time.
striaghtfwd to box off the pipes and other stuff but its a utility/plant room. for now a door suffices

Tiobkuhi

Hey Guys,

I know, I know...air to water question🙄🙄🙄

Just a quick one...
3000sq ft, underfloor heating up and down stairs.

5 people. Want hot water morning and evening.
Two good length showers and a bath. Usual hot tap requirements.

What size cylinder?
What size Kva?

Mucho thanks in advance.

shianto

Shaunoc wrote: »

mine (a danfoss) is just over 2 feet deep and around 3 feet wide (some piping makes it that wide in my setup). Height is floor to ceiling as there are bit and bobs above the unit (expansion tanks i guess). the unit itself is sized like a tall fridge - that includes the 160/180 lt tank.
what i lose in the utility, i have freed up in upstairs usual hot water closet space. I have that shelved out for plenty of storage (towels, blankets, baby stuff, more baby stuff, suit cases...).

Can I ask you impression of Danfoss (and be so bold as to enquire about model and cost ...)?

I am doing a rebuild and have spec'ed a NIBE, but the little I can find on comparisons show the Danfoss being a good challenger...

BFMadden

Tiobkuhi wrote: »

Hey Guys,

I know, I know...air to water question🙄🙄🙄

Just a quick one...
3000sq ft, underfloor heating up and down stairs.

5 people. Want hot water morning and evening.
Two good length showers and a bath. Usual hot tap requirements.

What size cylinder?
What size Kva?

Mucho thanks in advance.

Forget about A2W, you'll be robbed. Go with geothermal.

Latro

BFMadden wrote: »

Forget about A2W, you'll be robbed. Go with geothermal.

It is exactly the opposite. With geothermal your installation is about 10k more expensive to save maybe 100-150 euro per year. That's 66 years return on investment. Totally worth it.

BFMadden

Latro wrote: »

It is exactly the opposite. With geothermal your installation is about 10k more expensive to save maybe 100-150 euro per year. That's 66 years return on investment. Totally worth it.

Incorrect. 3-4k more expensive and will probably last twice as long as an A2W unit. So you can add an extra 10k to the payback in capital savings over 20 years.

froshtyv

BFMadden wrote: »

Incorrect. 3-4k more expensive and will probably last twice as long as an A2W unit. So you can add an extra 10k to the payback in capital savings over 20 years.

Probably last twice as long, presumptuous statement.

I would doubt there are any of Geothermal heat pumps in 20 years, so again another presumptuous statement.

I have pulled out countless Geothermal units that have been anywhere from 8 - 12 years old.

KCross

froshtyv wrote: »

I have pulled out countless Geothermal units that have been anywhere from 8 - 12 years old.

All anyone can work with is the average lifespan. Nobody can predict how long a particular unit will last.... no different to how two cars coming off the same production line have different reliability.


That said, surely you'd agree that a Geo unit, on average, should last longer because it has to run less to deliver the same heat demand.

You can of course have good and bad units and good and bad installers. But on average, Geo will last longer than A2W. I think that's all he is saying.

The fact you've pulled out some units that died early could be an indication of alot of dodgy installers which were in the Irish market 10-15 years ago and have since gone bust and did terrible installations.... that can happen with A2W too. The lesson there is to do your research and go with a reputable installer, not the cheapest quote!

Condenser

froshtyv wrote: »

Probably last twice as long, presumptuous statement.

I would doubt there are any of Geothermal heat pumps in 20 years, so again another presumptuous statement.

I have pulled out countless Geothermal units that have been anywhere from 8 - 12 years old.

Geo unless poorly installed will outlive A2W by quite a distance, be much cheaper to run and have other advantages such as the possibilty to cool the house passively which is becoming more and more important given the levels of glazing and insulation levels. Its also only between 2-4k more expensive.
Going with A2W is a very short term view, only really worrying about the upfront costs and not considering the lifespan, running costs and other benefits that geothermal brings.
I know of plenty of geothermal units in the 18+ years running bracket and they've had a hell of a lot more work done than any of the A2W units on the market will ever see. I've seen units almost 30years old tipping away. No A2W will ever see anything remotely like that lifespan.

froshtyv

KCross wrote: »

All anyone can work with is the average lifespan. Nobody can predict how long a particular unit will last.... no different to how two cars coming off the same production line have different reliability.


That said, surely you'd agree that a Geo unit, on average, should last longer because it has to run less to deliver the same heat demand.

You can of course have good and bad units and good and bad installers. But on average, Geo will last longer than A2W. I think that's all he is saying.

The fact you've pulled out some units that died early could be an indication of alot of dodgy installers which were in the Irish market 10-15 years ago and have since gone bust and did terrible installations.... that can happen with A2W too. The lesson there is to do your research and go with a reputable installer, not the cheapest quote!

I would agree with some of your points above.

What i have seen on here is;

Certain people who have a preference to Geo will say that they last longer etc than ATW.
When someone says a geo only lasted 8 years etc, it must be down to bad instalation or poor mainteance.

If an ATW was pulled out after 8 years, its the sure what do you expect line that it is used.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages and both are at the mercy of installer.
I have seen both GEO and ATW units previously installed and wondered how they ever worked!
Installers treating them like they are oil boilers throwing out 50kW

Condenser

Latro wrote: »

It is exactly the opposite. With geothermal your installation is about 10k more expensive to save maybe 100-150 euro per year. That's 66 years return on investment. Totally worth it.

Why put about completely inaccurate costings and payback figures when you clearly don't know how much the equipment installation costs are and what the realistic difference in running costs are.

shianto

Not wanting to hijack the A2W vs GSHP debate , but any views on:

shianto wrote: »

Can I ask you impression of Danfoss (and be so bold as to enquire about model and cost ...)?

I am doing a rebuild and have spec'ed a NIBE, but the little I can find on comparisons show the Danfoss being a good challenger...

or

Tiobkuhi wrote: »

Hey Guys,

I know, I know...air to water question🙄🙄🙄

Just a quick one...
3000sq ft, underfloor heating up and down stairs.

5 people. Want hot water morning and evening.
Two good length showers and a bath. Usual hot tap requirements.

What size cylinder?
What size Kva?

Mucho thanks in advance.

looksee

Not sure this is a daft question, but if a house has its own well, can that be used for geothermal heating?

Water John

Yes, using W2W heat exchanger. Efficiency can be quite high, near 6:1. By right you should have a second bore to dump the used ground water.
http://www.climatecontrol.ie/water-to-water.htm.

Think most rural dwellers, with their own bore well supply, should look at this option.

looksee

Thank you, that sounds promising!