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Heat Pumps - post here.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 344 ✭✭veXual


    Hi Folks, seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here so just wanted to ask a question. I'm in a new build with a 12kw Samsung heat pump installed looking at the settings on the control panel for the low and high target values for the water temp for the UFH both were set to 27c by the engineer who installed it. This surely can't be right can it?

    Judging by comments I've read from people here my heating shouldn't be consistently calling for heat but it seems its demanding it quite frequently now the weather has cooled. Should I adjust these settings to a low target value of 45c and a high of 30c ( I've based these numbers off a tutorial I spotted on youtube)

    Thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,152 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    It depends on your house but you should be aiming for as low a value as you can. Less than 30°C is what you should be after.

    Definitely not 45°C.


    A bit odd that low and high are both set to the same... that might be a mistake. Your first port of call is your installer. Ask them to advise, they should know the system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    It must be a big house if it's new and needs a 12kW heat pump.

    My max flow temp is set to 30°C and works fine on UFH during the winter. Not a Samsung.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Leave it be, the lower the flow temperature the more efficiently the heat pump runs.

    Underfloor heating usually run at "low" temperatures

    It running at a low speed for a long time, is better than it running at full power for a short time, cutting in and out.

    Only consider changing it if you are cold in the house.



  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ConorC1


    My UFH temperature setting is at 40 degrees. I have never changed it. If this water is servicing radiators on the upper floors of the house would that be the reason it may seem high compared to what people are advising in this thread?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    thanks redmagic68, way too much going on at the minute but I have a few takers should I ever have the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    Further to my earlier query.

    What equipment is physically involved in the install, or does it vary?

    Is it a matter of removing the boiler and re-plumbing in the pipework? We have a relatively simple install as is, with the flow split for radiators and hot water driven by two pumps. Recently upgraded the cylinder to a well insulated 210l tank so thinking it won't need replacing again. Boiler is in a utility against the outside wall where we could install a heat pump so pipes could be carried straight out through the wall.

    Thanks



  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭redmagic68


    So every system is fairly similar depending on the design lay out. Your heat pump comes on like your boiler and in my case sends dhw to the storage tank with one pump. There are two further pumps then for the two underfloor manifolds one for up stairs one for down. There are a number of electronically controlled diverted valves also but these are quite small. Our tank has 3 coils one for the heat pump, one for solar and then an immersion heater. I should imagine your set up will be similar but with rads. There is also a top up valve allowing you push some water into the system if pressure falls a little at the hp after depressurising to clean filters etc but this is generally off the mains.

    8.4 kwp east/west Louth,6kw sofar, 9.6kwh batt



  • Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭TheUnderfaker


    Looking for a little bit of advice (and apologies if going over old ground).

    New to the heat pump world (Daikin 12kwh) and have just been checking out the settings now that the cold snap has hit. We have radiators and no UFH.

    I noticed that the heat going to the radiators is set to 50°C so they get pretty hot. The house is lovely and warm, but I'm wondering if having the temperature so high is the most efficient way to run a heat pump? Would having the radiators set to a lower temperature and the heat pump running for longer periods at a time generally be a more efficient way to run the system?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭THE ALM




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,711 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Have not read the whole thread fro your posts, are your rads up to it with the reduced flow/return temps from the HP?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    That is what I am trying to figure out.

    If my calculations are correct then the heat loss for the house is approx. 9kW and the radiator output is approx. 16.5kW so just trying to figure how these two relate to each other? Most rads are k2 with a few small k1 in ensuites.

    Another question is the need for a buffer tank as I am seeing conflicting information in regards the need for one. It would make things a lot easier if one is not required.


    EDIT: Radiator sizing - is it simply that a room as a heat loss of e.g. 900w and therefore needs a radiator with an output of 900w?



  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭redmagic68


    A buffer tank where you have a high flow temp coming from the heat pump that could be to hot going to a floor or where you want to reduce cycling of the heat pump and use it as a store along side a Hwc. Inverter heat pumps can alter their leaving temperature to suit the demand being placed on the system. Fixed output heat pumps generally need a buffer thank.

    8.4 kwp east/west Louth,6kw sofar, 9.6kwh batt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 344 ✭✭veXual


    Thanks to all who replied on my post. We're only a few weeks in the house so some acclimatization needed to the new system. Being your typical Irish person I'm accustomed to heat being blasted from radiators and heat in a room being 'hot'. I know a few people here have spoken about temperatures of 18c in rooms being plenty warm but I'm not finding that to be the case so far. It feels cool to me though it may just take some getting used to.

    I do want to ask about peoples experiences with heat recovery and the temperature of the air being supplied to the rooms. Has the air from the vents felt cold to some? I'm questioning the temperature of what's being supplied into the rooms in my house. Almost feels as if there's a breeze in some places though that may be air tightness that needs to be addressed. I haven't had an air tightness test performed as of yet and am in the middle of my BER assessment so may get more insights there when completed.

    Stats in each room do indicate that they are on consistently to maintain the temperature and at times are struggling to hit the temps I've set though it is the coldest weather we've had in a while so it may not be the best time to draw conclusions. Being a new build and having just moved in I've become obsessed with the heating making sure its running effectively, from both and energy and cost perspective, while keeping the missus and child happy and warm!

    Edit: For context my system was installed by Joule - 12KW Samsung heat pump with invavent MHRV in a 220m2 bungalow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    I think you might have the same HP as myself 12kW Joule Samsung and the same size house. I have mine set to 18-19 deg in the bedrooms and halls, the living rooms and kitchen etc I have set to 20 deg otherwise it can feel a bit cool. Again it all depends how good your house holds the heat.

    For what its worth with the weather over the past week not getting above freezing my HP has been getting a right proper workout and I am using quite a bit more than I though I should. That saying we are in an orange alert cold weather snap and my heating has been kicking in all day. That saying also I have had builders in the house today and they were in and out all day leaving the door open and I wasn't there to turn off a stat that was next to a door. 🤬

    What I am saying is this weather is a bit exceptional and I wouldn't read too much into these days. Just keep an eye on your stats it could be one room that is set a bit too high and keeping the HP on, but in the end of the day you have to be warm.

    For what its worth I have used since midnight last night to now (20:00hrs) 52 kWh eek!!....

    My 7 day moving average has gone up to about 37 kWh/day over the last week, I should be around 22-25 kWh/day going by last Feb/March.

    I have A1 rated house (A2 without the 6kW Soalr PV) so its well insulated and airtight.


    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    I don't feel so bad about my 30kWh+ daily usage on the HP the last few days now (been actively trying to control it to little avail).

    Eco_mental if you have HA have you got stats that support being integrated?

    I set up an automation to turn off the relevant stat (heatmiser stats with neohub for me) if a external door or window (via ring alarm integration for contact sensors) is left open for 5 minutes.... Only turns back on after being closed again for 15 minutes - this is about what it takes for the air temp to settle again in most rooms and either call for heat or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    I have got Joule stats and they dont have connectivity but I am thinking of getting stats in the future that can be connected to HA but not this winter maybe next summer project. Funny thing is I do have a Zigbee door contact on the door in question but I don't have any automations set up for it as I only put it in a couple of weeks ago along with a load of Zigbee temp sensors.

    Over Christmas I might look at some automations or even some alerts to be sent.

    I kind of wanted to let they system work away to be honest as well in the really cold weather to see how it performed and have been tweeking it. I noticed a temp setting of 1 degree too high in a room can call heat far too much. I had the bedrooms set at 19degs and rooms were kicking in a lot during the night but I lowered them down to 18.5 and it has improved it no end.



    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    You can get HA to send notifications to your phone or alexa.... I had a close the f'n door notification that went out..... It wasn't popular....

    Still.... Door sensor for the fridge for the same reason is coming.... Once you start monitoring energy usage it's a slippery slope.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    I used 114kw total yday. Typically 22kw with no pump in summer so 92kw on geothermal heat pump!!

    I have pump set normal (as low as possible) all night. However a slightly higher setting is called for the hour before the day rate elec starts. And then set back to slightly lower for the day rate period, with an hour on normal in the afternoon as I figure that should stop the system getting too cool.


    pump ran 18 hours yday! Depressing!

    😎



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Very interesting to see the automation and impact of a door open- and temp settling time. Always wondered impact of opening doors when we spend time measuring tiny amounts of heat loss and spending whatever to get from b2 to b1 then the kid leaves the door open for 2 minutes.

    😎



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭Takca


    Just found this tread while trying to find my way around the heating in a newly renovated house,

    I thought I my usage was excessive (see graph) which lead me here, I'm now thinking the power usage

    seems reasonable.


    Some details on the house, 285sqm, BER A2

    3 zones (downstairs, upstairs and a granny flat area), also includes a unheated garage area

    rads, no underfloor heating

    demand controlled vents (no heat recovery)


    I've felt that the DCV was pulling in too much cold air leaving the place feeling

    chilly sometimes (and causing the heating to run more)


    So I turned off both extractor fans last week for a day (see outlier on graph were usage goes from 

    the high 30s to 24 kwh, But wasn't happy with the vents being completely off so am now

    experimenting with partially running it.


    Leaving one on the turning one off (amount varied each day, The Fan I turned off covers the granny flat area (currently vacant with stat set to 16c) and the kitchen/utility.)


    Anyways here is the graph of daily consumption of heating upto the 11th (excludes hot water)

    along with a 24h rolling average of the outside temp. I only have a few months of data





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    Would you think of retrofitting MHRV system? I did it last year. Wasn't too bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    One of the guys sent on his HP stats for Nov.

    237kwh In -> 709kwh Out

    Current on "Free Saturday" smart meter deal, essentially cost him €92.54

    That equates to 80 litres of Kerosense I think? €92.40

    Would be ok if they were the same price if he didn't fork out 8 to 10k for the A2W?

    I'm guessing his unit is behaving badly + his elec rate is bad??



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Do you mind me asking, what kind of money are you talking to retrofit a MHRV? Just ballpark



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    Couple of years ago but it was about 3.5 to 4 k ex vat for a detached 4 bed. That's for the hardware. Good few weekends in getting it all in.



  • Posts: 15,362 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hmm, thats not so bad. By the sounds of it you did the work yourself, I'm guessing it would be about 70% more if I was to get someone to do the work for me (I'm not the handiest at DIY)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭THE ALM


    Recently got a quote for the equipment for a 4 bed bungalow with a view to retrofitting MHRV, the equipment varied in price from about £2300-£2700 + vat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,694 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Why does he presume he’s gonna save money with a heat pump over a boiler?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    few youtube videos and crawling around in an attic. Be grand.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,419 ✭✭✭randombar


    I always thought that was a given, I heard of a statistic somewhere that it would half the cost of your heating bill. Instead of paying 800 in oil you'd be paying 400 in elec. That's probably a very old one though.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,425 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    His electric rate is poor. But being on a smart meter there's not much choice unfortunately.

    He's getting a cop of just under 3 which is ok.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭Takca


    Had I known the chill would be an issue I'd have chosen it in the original renovation but now that I haven't I'm looking first it what I can do with what I have.

    I might go back and do it at some stage, I had assumed it would be a invasive job so hadn't given it serious thought...yet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭GodlikeRed


    Hi All,

    Couple of questions.

    How do I get a meter/sensor installed to assess HP usage. There isn't anything on the HP showing usage.

    My heat pump is installed at a slight angle, maybe negative 2Degrees...any thoughts if this would cause issues? I don't know why the F it's wasn't installed level....new build and all that.

    Current usage is high, checked meter tracking to use 1500Kw/h in 60days. Rooms mostly set to 20c, one larger living area to 22C

    Not exactly the panacea that it's supposed to be?

    DHW 48C

    Heating circuit 40C

    Thanks,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    MOst of us on here that show energy usage graphs use Home Assistant Home Assistant (home-assistant.io) as a system to manage energy and home automations. I use this and then I use a ShellyEM Shelly EM + 50A Clamp - Shelly EM + 120A Clamp - All Product - Products - Shelly to actually log the HP circuit.

    Going back to your energy usage my Heat Pump used in November 461kWh and October only 192 kWh.... BUT so far in December its 513 kWh and we only half way through!!. This includes all hot water etc

    My thoughts are that your room temps might be a bit high, I have nothing set to 22deg, if I did my HP would be on all the time and I live in a very well insulated airtight house (A1 BER) Bedrooms should be 18-19 degs, all other living rooms 20-21 degs. That should make a big difference. In fact I have nothing set over 20 deg. I might set the living room to 21-21.5 in a evening if I wanted it to be toasty.

    Another thing is this weather at the moment I wouldn't be too overly concerned as this is exceptional cold weather we are having.

    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    That sounds way off to me. Do you have underfloor heating? 40c seems way to high for underfloor(ok for rads), unless you live in a very energy inefficient house?

    Our heat pump used 52kWh for hot water and 65kWh for heating in Nov. DHW @48c and house set to 21c.

    I never let my flow temp in underfloor go over 30. Was set to 26c for nov, had to up it to 28c for this bitter cold weather.

    House is BER A2 and almost passive airtightness test, no solar just for reference.

    ☀️ 7.8kWp ⚡3.6kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭GodlikeRed


    Thanks appreciate the comments.

    Water setting = Flow temp here I'm assuming. Set this to 30c...or even lower than 40c?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Has anyone been able to get a “heat engineer” to check out their heat pump system. It seems the majority involved with pumps in Ireland are plumbers and not people specialised with all things heat pump heating, as seems to be more prevalent in the U.K. (things like heat geek)??

    Before replacing my pump I’m minded to have someone trustworthy simply ensure my system is actually balanced and setup efficiently…

    😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭redmagic68


    Where are you based? There are loads of different companies with engineers that can check them over and sort most issues. They’re basically air conditioning units so refrigeration companies are good too

    8.4 kwp east/west Louth,6kw sofar, 9.6kwh batt



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Meath. It is not just the pump I want checking though - it's the UFH manifolds, flow rates, and circulation pump x2 speeds. The challenge with these heat pump systems seems to be the pump can be sound but if the settings on it, or the broader system setup and settings are not right then it spirals towards inefficiency, so getting the pump checked (done) is not even half the battle.

    😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭redmagic68


    I can pm you a lad that looks after my heatpump he’s based in oldcastle ir athboy area used to work for midland?

    8.4 kwp east/west Louth,6kw sofar, 9.6kwh batt



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Just looking at my Meter and my usage...Looking like an energy bill north of €300 for 4 weeks...I know its been incredibly cold, but come on this is madness



  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭johndoe11


    I have a Bosch/IVT heatpump installed for about five years but have only recently started tracking usage using a Husdata H66 https://husdata.se/produkter.asp?prodid=18

    It works very well with HA and allows full control with various heatpump makes and you can view the sensor values.

    I've noticed the real issue with power usage is when the auxiliary heater kicks in, below about - 4 for me. It has a staged capacity of up 9kw, and used 80kwh one day last week by itself! For comparison, the compressor capacity is only 2kw. It is basically an immersion heater.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭GodlikeRed


    1501 kw/h billed for 58 days.

    North of €500 for two months.

    Price per kw/h has effectively doubled since Jan all things considered.

    65kw/h for heating in November sounds low.

    Seems like consensus is 30+kw/h when cold as **** outside. 200m2 house..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 884 ✭✭✭keno-daytrader


    Hmmm, the most we used was 18kWh when the high was -2 and low was -8 here. we used 18kWh 2 days in a row, about 10-12kWh a day during the bitter cold spell just there. Thats just underfloor heating not hotwater.

    ☀️ 7.8kWp ⚡3.6kWp south, ⚡4.20kWp west



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Nelbert


    I was in or around 30kWh for heating on the coldest days but I've some more draft proofing to get done on the kitchen / living area... The cold highlighted this without any fancy gadgets.... Builder due back soon to sort (retention money won't be paid till it's sorted....).

    Once that's sorted thermostats will be dropped a degree or two as I won't be battling against as much heat loss.


    Half to two third of that was on night rate to set up the house for the day though but it'll still be a costly November and December.

    Even with the electricity price increases I'm still spending less on energy (elec and gas previously) this winter than we did before the renovation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,064 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    Can't you turn off the auxiliary heater in the settings? One of the first things I did, not a Bosch/IVT though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭johndoe11


    I have it set to a max of 2kw now, I presume it would be needed during prolonged cold spells? We barely got above zero for 8 days earlier this month. The COP of heat pumps isn't great below zero, presumed it would struggle to meet required flow temp if turned off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    I would take much from the last 10 or so days that weather was exceptional....my daily consumption is now back down to under 20 kWh/day. As you can see from the graph I nearly touched 60 kWh/day a couple of days last week and consistently between 30-40 kWh/day. This includes all hot water as well.

    I don't mind the expectational cold weather because that's rare and dont read too much into that. You need to keep an eye on normal days and are you using too much or is your HP on all the time.

    The second graph below also is showing even though the heating was coming on it was only using about 1.5 kW and only for a half hour or so each time so only actually consuming 0.75 kWh. During the really cold nights (-4 to -5) the HP was up at 4.5kW so it was working a lot harder.


    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,767 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    i know it’s been cold but don’t these pumps originate from Scandinavia or are certainly used there? If so I’d have expected them to remain efficent - minus 3 isn’t exactly cold for Scandinavian countries.

    😎



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭MacronvFrugals



    Currently renting a new build mid floor A2 apartment with HP (rads no UF) and MHRV, honestly not convinced by the HP tech at this stage at all. Cost isnt cheap to run at all and when things go wrong ie auxillary kicks in bills skyrocket also the heat can feel sometimes not adequate.

    Would definetely make me reconsider if carrying out a renovation project (its fine now as the landlord is on the hook for all the callouts), this is coming from someone who thought the tech was the best thing since sliced bread a year ago.


    Another thing i've noticed from the contractors who visited, they all seemed to have different ideas of what the ideal settings were.



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