Heat Pumps - post here.

SOR2010

Just an update since changing to Curve 2 the hp has 8units in 30hrs
Brine in 8.2 Out is 5.2
2.0 Flow temp is 46.8(20.0)

ecowise

Those temperatures look better, your delta T is now 8.2-5.2=3 but your flow (out) temperature is still too high, it should be lower than 5.2 if your heat pump is doing its job. There must be another setting that will reduce this to around 1 degree C which is easily achievable with a properly functioning heat pump. This would give you a delta T of around 7 and you will be a lot happier with your heating costs.

soundskin

Low delta T relates to high flow rate. You can reduce the pump speed from 4 to 3 on the brine pump. There is no setting on the older Nibe heat pumps to alter your brine out temp.

ecowise

It is the combination of flow rate and delta T that provides the free heat. So if I halve the delta T but double the flow rate then I am getting the same rate of heat delivered in terms of kW (ignoring any extra pumping power that may required which is usually relatively small). The problem in this case is very much pointing to the flow temperature to the collector circuit. Assuming the flow/return connections are connected to the correct outlet/inlet on the heat exchanger then the heat exchanger is faulty (unlikely) or there is something wrong with the refrigerant circuit. In any event the flow temperature is definitely too high and therein lies the problem.

soundskin

This is from nibe installation and Maintance manual on 1240/1140 heat pumps, section on commissioning and start up.

"Read the brine temperatures in menu 5.0. The dif- ference between these two temperatures should be 2—5 °C when the system has come into bal- ance. Adjust the flow with the knob on the brine pump (35). A high difference indicates a low brine flow. A low difference indicates a high brine flow."

ecowise

Thanks for that, I think I have a clearer picture of what is going on. It is correct that a higher flow rate will tend to give a lower return temperature but if the heat pump is controlled a certain way you could still get more heat (kW) with higher flow rates. What the NIBE appears to be doing is adjusting the flow out temperature relative to the flow in temperature to maintain a delta T of around 3 degrees (the expression 'come into balance' in the NIBE instructions would suggest this). I have checked performance figures for heat pumps in general and this is sufficient to get a good COP (around 4). Since these heat pumps can usually function with an inflow temperature of -5 degrees C they are capable of supplying an outflow temperature lower than this, probably down to -8 or so and I naively thought they would try to maximize the delta T this way by making the outflow temperature really low. I presume this would take too much energy to achieve so they strive to maintain a sufficient delta T relative to the inflow temperature. This means that I was incorrect in saying that the outflow temperature is too high, 5 is ok if the inflow is 8. If the system is still using too much kWh with this delta T then it might be that it is time to look at the demand side.

BryanF

apologies if this has been covered already,

1. has anyone been following the intended blanket ban of HFC's EU wide by 2022 ?
2. is this a factor that purchasers of heat pumps are aware of?
3. is their an alternative suitable refrigerant proposed by the heat pump industry?

froshtyv

BryanF wrote: »

apologies if this has been covered already,

1. has anyone been following the intended blanket ban of HFC's EU wide by 2022 ?
2. is this a factor that purchasers of heat pumps are aware of?
3. is their an alternative suitable refrigerant proposed by the heat pump industry?

Does R410A fall into this category?

BryanF

froshtyv wrote: »

Does R410A fall into this category?

http://www.climatecenter.co.uk/en/info/f-gas-regs

froshtyv

BryanF wrote: »

http://www.climatecenter.co.uk/en/info/f-gas-regs

Cheers,

Interesting read.

threeball

BryanF wrote: »

apologies if this has been covered already,

1. has anyone been following the intended blanket ban of HFC's EU wide by 2022 ?
2. is this a factor that purchasers of heat pumps are aware of?
3. is their an alternative suitable refrigerant proposed by the heat pump industry?

Its a proposed phase out and its not the first time refrigerants have been phased out. R12 was banned in 1994 and there is still R-12 equipment running in this country and the Uk today. In these instances three things happen. The refrigerant is banned from being used in newly produced equipment. There is then a lengthy wind down period where the refrigerant is available for service/repairs etc. There is a drop in refrigerant developed that is suitable to use on the existing equipment for the period after the refrigerant is banned entirely.

The day when you can't get a replacement refrigerant for your heatpump is so far away its not even worth considering. Worst case scenario is that you replace your compressor and expansion valve in 20yrs, fill with a new type of refrigerant and away you go again. Thats if the refrigerant ever leaks in the first place.

SOR2010

Just an update:

ESB arrived last week, for 2 months the bill was €373 this was down from the previous bill of €634 for a similar period, This also only covered about 1 month since I made changes to the heating Curve, Currently on 4,
I know the weather has been great the last couple of weeks but I haven't been making a lot of adjustments since I got advice here a few weeks ago, So really happy and hopefully will see a further reduction on the next bill

Just wanted to say thanks for all the replies & advise

Cheers

ps I'll post an update when I get the next bill

froshtyv

Can anyone shed some light on this?

The NIBE F2040-12 on the harp database has a rated capacity of 5.12kW, but on the NIBE technical brochure it has a rated capacity of 8-12 kW?

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/Harp_Database/Heat_Pumps/Details/?ID=58

http://www.nibe.eu/nibedocuments/11888/639540-2.pdf

ecowise

Is it the NIBE 1240 you mean? There are three entries with this number in the HARP database, they are identified with product ID 5, 8 and 12 presumably meaning 1240-5,1240-8 and 1240-12 and they are given ratings of 5.14 kW 9.15 kW and 12.79 kW which seem consistent with NIBE.

froshtyv

ecowise wrote: »

Is it the NIBE 1240 you mean? There are three entries with this number in the HARP database, they are identified with product ID 5, 8 and 12 presumably meaning 1240-5,1240-8 and 1240-12 and they are given ratings of 5.14 kW 9.15 kW and 12.79 kW which seem consistent with NIBE.

Its not the 1240 its the F2040-12, see the above links i pasted previously.

snozzler33

Hi can someone please tell me how to turn on hot water or heatin system,with a nibe fighter 1220 just moved into a house with this boiler and geo thermo system have had it on but knocks off after few mins thx

ecowise

froshtyv wrote: »

Its not the 1240 its the F2040-12, see the above links i pasted previously.

Sorry, I had not seen your previous posts and was stuck on brine to water heat pumps! The conflicting power ratings look very odd. Have you asked the NIBE distributor about the apparent anomaly?

froshtyv

ecowise wrote: »

Sorry, I had not seen your previous posts and was stuck on brine to water heat pumps! The conflicting power ratings look very odd. Have you asked the NIBE distributor about the apparent anomaly?

It can be annoying sorting through the harp data base search menus.

I haven't asked NIBE regarding the issue.
Normally what you find is that the output recorded in the harp database is slightly less than what the manufacture gives, but not by that much.

For a 12kW manufacturer rated heat pump to have a rating of just over 5kW on the harp database is very strange?

planes01

Hi All,
We have a waterkotte AI1 which has been giving trouble for the last year. the house was freezing and the trip switch kept tripping in the house and in trying to source the problem we discovered it was the heat pump. we had to replace the compressor before christmas. installer charged us €2,500.
very unsatisfied with the local installer and so got Geothermal trouble shooters in as issues were still not fixed, pressure gauge kept dropping and the bills were still over €500. They found that the entire manifold had been leaking. they fixed that and flushed the system with citric acid. they explained that there is still an issue with the coil inside in the tank. if we leave the water temp at 60 degrees it trips the switch all the time. i have it set for 40 but the trip still goes at least twice a week which i know is damaging the new compressor again.
one possibility may be that the coil is cover in limescale which has built up over the 9 yrs since system was put in.
i really dont understand the internal working of the system. guy said the water is not losing its heat when passing through the coil?
just wondering has anyone experienced anything like this or have any advice?

froshtyv

brianowilliams wrote: »

Hi All,
We have a waterkotte AI1 which has been giving trouble for the last year. the house was freezing and the trip switch kept tripping in the house and in trying to source the problem we discovered it was the heat pump. we had to replace the compressor before christmas. installer charged us €2,500.
very unsatisfied with the local installer and so got Geothermal trouble shooters in as issues were still not fixed, pressure gauge kept dropping and the bills were still over €500. They found that the entire manifold had been leaking. they fixed that and flushed the system with citric acid. they explained that there is still an issue with the coil inside in the tank. if we leave the water temp at 60 degrees it trips the switch all the time. i have it set for 40 but the trip still goes at least twice a week which i know is damaging the new compressor again.
one possibility may be that the coil is cover in limescale which has built up over the 9 yrs since system was put in.
i really dont understand the internal working of the system. guy said the water is not losing its heat when passing through the coil?
just wondering has anyone experienced anything like this or have any advice?

What type of cylinder do you have?
When you say its tripping i assume you meant the MCB in your fuse board as opposed to the thermal overload in your cylinder?

Crank Stain

MOD NOTE: moved to existing sticky thread

Hi all,

A quick query for a resident boards expert, all opinions appreciated.

I am trying to decide on an air to water heat pump for a new build.
We are getting underfloor heating throughout, its approx 2200 square feet, we are aiming for an A3 BER, and I have narrowed the quotes received down to the following pumps.

1. Samsung EHS 9Kw with a SPF of 361
2. Daikin Altherma 11Kw with a SPF of 378

I am not a expert in the field, and I am trying not to get blinded by the science of it all, so can anyone tell me if the SPF difference of 17 in favour of the Daikin will make any difference in a modern well insulaited home, if the standard of installation is the same for both systems.

I dont think it will, but I would appreciate the opinions of the boards experts in case I am missing anything.

Thanks.

Condenser

Crank Stain wrote: »

MOD NOTE: moved to existing sticky thread

Hi all,

A quick query for a resident boards expert, all opinions appreciated.

I am trying to decide on an air to water heat pump for a new build.
We are getting underfloor heating throughout, its approx 2200 square feet, we are aiming for an A3 BER, and I have narrowed the quotes received down to the following pumps.

1. Samsung EHS 9Kw with a SPF of 361
2. Daikin Altherma 11Kw with a SPF of 378

I am not a expert in the field, and I am trying not to get blinded by the science of it all, so can anyone tell me if the SPF difference of 17 in favour of the Daikin will make any difference in a modern well insulaited home, if the standard of installation is the same for both systems.

I dont think it will, but I would appreciate the opinions of the boards experts in case I am missing anything.

Thanks.

The only difference it will make is the limited difference it would make to your BER which is next to nothing. You're looking at 170w per hour extra output from the Daikin.
Btw that's COP which seai choose to call SPF, its not. SPF can only be determined from a running heat pump and the type of installation will determine the final SPF over a designated period of time. Your installer will have a bigger impact on this than any difference between those two so choose the one who you feel has the better knowledge or better track record of installing systems.

froshtyv

Crank Stain wrote: »

MOD NOTE: moved to existing sticky thread

Hi all,

A quick query for a resident boards expert, all opinions appreciated.

I am trying to decide on an air to water heat pump for a new build.
We are getting underfloor heating throughout, its approx 2200 square feet, we are aiming for an A3 BER, and I have narrowed the quotes received down to the following pumps.

1. Samsung EHS 9Kw with a SPF of 361
2. Daikin Altherma 11Kw with a SPF of 378

I am not a expert in the field, and I am trying not to get blinded by the science of it all, so can anyone tell me if the SPF difference of 17 in favour of the Daikin will make any difference in a modern well insulaited home, if the standard of installation is the same for both systems.

I dont think it will, but I would appreciate the opinions of the boards experts in case I am missing anything.

Thanks.

The difference in the SPF from the harpdata base will have an impact on your overall BER file. It depends how close you are from compliance. Obviously the higher the better.

Regarding performance of the units. It will depend who installs them. Back-up support and servicing of the units would be what i would be looking for.

calum22

According to the Energy Savings Trust typical costs for the installation (excluding the cost of heat distribution) range from £9,000 (€11,000) to £17,000 (€19,000) for a geothermal system (running costs £650/€700 a year), and £6,000 (€6,700) to £10,000 (€11,000) for an air source heat pump (running costs £750/€840 a year).

Accurate??

seaniefr

Crank Stain wrote: »

MOD NOTE: moved to existing sticky thread

Hi all,

A quick query for a resident boards expert, all opinions appreciated.

I am trying to decide on an air to water heat pump for a new build.
We are getting underfloor heating throughout, its approx 2200 square feet, we are aiming for an A3 BER, and I have narrowed the quotes received down to the following pumps.

1. Samsung EHS 9Kw with a SPF of 361
2. Daikin Altherma 11Kw with a SPF of 378

I am not a expert in the field, and I am trying not to get blinded by the science of it all, so can anyone tell me if the SPF difference of 17 in favour of the Daikin will make any difference in a modern well insulaited home, if the standard of installation is the same for both systems.

I dont think it will, but I would appreciate the opinions of the boards experts in case I am missing anything.

Thanks.

Hi I have the Daikin Altherma 16kw version with soft start and it's absolutely bulletproof as in I have had very little issues with it. Don't know much about the samsung unit but this was a retro fit and the company I dealt with were excellent. Just my 2 cents😄

Condenser

calum22 wrote: »

According to the Energy Savings Trust typical costs for the installation (excluding the cost of heat distribution) range from £9,000 (€11,000) to £17,000 (€19,000) for a geothermal system (running costs £650/€700 a year), and £6,000 (€6,700) to £10,000 (€11,000) for an air source heat pump (running costs £750/€840 a year).

Accurate??

How long is a piece of string. How big is the house? Whats the insulation spec? Who's installing the system? What type of ground source unit are they refering to.

To pigeon hole systems and their running costs into the parameters above is just more generic rubbish from the energy savings trust. Unfortunately people have faith in these agencies.

The true answer can only be provided on a case by case basis and could be better or worse than above depending on the answers

Cosmia

I'm considering buying a property with this heating system...this will be the only source of heating the water and air in the house. It is a new build with an A3 BER rating and will be heated using a Dimplex air source heat pump. I have absolutely no experience with this system, nor do I know anyone who has used one and my knowledge is limited to what I've gleaned from the internet (very little!)

I got an info sheet from Dimplex which makes grand claims as to their cost efficiency and environmental benefits, but I'm primarily concerned with two questions:

a)will I actually be warm in winter without it costing an arm and a leg?
b) are they really cost efficient?

The info sheet says that they are 382% efficient compared with natural gas which is 92% efficient... and therefore the running costs are approximately half of what gas would be...this seems too good to be true!!
I actually have no problem paying the same type of bills I might reasonably expect had I natural gas, but I fear I may actually end up paying more.
I rented a place years ago that had electric storage heating, and swore then that I would never under any circumstances go back to electricity...
I really like the house and want this to be a good thing, but don't want to regret it either...

I'd really appreciate any feedback! thanks!

ted1

Cosmia wrote: »

I'm considering buying a property with this heating system...this will be the only source of heating the water and air in the house. It is a new build with an A3 BER rating and will be heated using a Dimplex air source heat pump. I have absolutely no experience with this system, nor do I know anyone who has used one and my knowledge is limited to what I've gleaned from the internet (very little!)

I got an info sheet from Dimplex which makes grand claims as to their cost efficiency and environmental benefits, but I'm primarily concerned with two questions:

a)will I actually be warm in winter without it costing an arm and a leg?
b) are they really cost efficient?

The info sheet says that they are 382% efficient compared with natural gas which is 92% efficient... and therefore the running costs are approximately half of what gas would be...this seems too good to be true!!
I actually have no problem paying the same type of bills I might reasonably expect had I natural gas, but I fear I may actually end up paying more.
I rented a place years ago that had electric storage heating, and swore then that I would never under any circumstances go back to electricity...
I really like the house and want this to be a good thing, but don't want to regret it either...

I'd really appreciate any feedback! thanks!

I'm not to up to speed on them, but here's a rough guide based on efficiencies.

1kwh of elec= 18c
1kwh of gas= 5c

So if you need 10 kwh, it'll cost 47c for elec* or 54c for gas.

If you have night rate it'll be cheaper.

As the temperature drops the efficiency of heat pumps do. What output can you get when its -2deg C out side?

There's a renewable forum in the rec>home garden

Some of the guys there are well up to speed.

Cosmia

ted1 wrote: »

1kwh of elec= 18c
1kwh of gas= 5c

So if you need 10 kwh, it'll cost 47c for elec* or 54c for gas.

Thanks, Ted. I'm probably being an idiot but i'm not following the maths here...

... and how reliable are the professed 'efficiencies'?

ted1

Cosmia wrote: »

Thanks, Ted. I'm probably being an idiot but i'm not following the maths here...

... and how reliable are the professed 'efficiencies'?

10kwh is 10kwh irrelevant of source so you can use this as a common denominator

10kwh/3.82=2.617kwh required *cost per kwh (18 cent)= 47c

10kwh/.92= 10.86kwh required* cost per kwh (5 cent) = 54c