Outer City Bypass

Iwannahurl

?Cee?view wrote: »

Excellent post with the sole exception that I don't believe Knocknacarra was ever explicitly planned in its entirety.

If you think the current process is farcical, the building of the WDR was even more so. The roundabout on Bishop O'Donnell road was constructed and demolished eight times before being finalised!

And it's still a mess, hostile to walking, cycling and public transport, as well as being clogged by motor traffic every morning.

The City Council has also claimed that the Deane Roundabout is not connected to the SQR modifications, which is self-evidently incorrect.

This is the same Council that urgently wants a cross-town expressway to fix the traffic mess that it has spent decades creating.

?Cee?view

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And it's still a mess, hostile to walking, cycling and public transport, as well as being clogged by motor traffic every morning.

The City Council has also claimed that the Deane Roundabout is not connected to the SQR modifications, which is self-evidently incorrect.

This is the same Council that urgently wants a cross-town expressway to fix the traffic mess that it has spent decades creating.

It's interesting that we can agree as to the problem but disagree completely with regard to the solution.

Zzippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I know your point is intended to support a particular point of view, which you presumably share to some degree.

However, I don't agree that there is equivalent "self-interest" on both sides of the argument. Sure, there is an element of NIMBYism. I have no doubt that many people who were jumping up and down about the rainbow routes will have far less to say now that the "emerging preferred route" has been identified. The reason is simple: their back yard is no longer in the firing line.

However, there are many people who are concerned about the proposal for reasons to do with what they regard as the common good, not because they personally stand to gain from not having a new expressway. I am a motorist, for example, so in theory at least if a new expressway benefits motorists then I would stand to gain as much as anyone else.

Yes, I do share it, and no, I didn't mean to imply there was equivalent self-interest. I consider those jumping up and down for a road to shorten their commute far more selfish and shortsighted than those agitating against a road, including those with a self-interest - the possibility of losing your home is a far better reason to be up in arms over this than someone possibly cutting a few minutes off their commute. And I agree that a much more holistic approach is needed including getting a lot of those people out of their cars and into a fast, efficient and well-funded public transport system that doesn't have to share road space with cars that shouldn't be there.

And in response to zarquon, I do not live on the route nor do I know anyone on the route. I commute from the east side into town, my job involves a lot of driving including getting out to Connemara frequently, and a "bypass" would certainly make that quicker for me, but I would rather not turf people out of their homes to make my life a fraction easier.

dubhthach

What percentage of traffic will be from the N59 <-> M6, it would be nice if ARUP would actually publish a report with expected traffic volumes tied in with source/destination. Until that happens throwing around figures of 5% without context (eg. 5% of what expected traffic count?) is rather meaningless.

serfboard

Zzippy wrote: »

I commute from the east side into town, my job involves a lot of driving including getting out to Connemara frequently, and a "bypass" would certainly make that quicker for me

Fair enough - you don't cross the river to go to work, and you use your car extensively during the day. But, most of the commuters clogging the QCB are in the opposite situation to you - they do cross the river to work, and they don't need their car during the day - which means they could easily use public transport if it was available.

Meanwhile, their cars sit outside work all day doing nothing ...

Iwannahurl

?Cee?view wrote: »

It's interesting that we can agree as to the problem but disagree completely with regard to the solution.

Are we referring to the same problem?

There are many to choose from, of course.

Galway's traffic mess did not happen by chance, and there was nothing inevitable about it, because of geographical factors for example ("natural gridlock" etc).

Galway City Council fervently desires a new "expressway" to fix traffic problems it has helped to cause, through decades of bad "planning" along with systematic neglect of public transport, walking and cycling. National government and the political system is also blameworthy, in my opinion.

ARUP are now proposing the expressway, along with public transport developments supposedly, as a solution to those traffic and transportation problems.

However, ARUP's Associate Director has also declared publicly that "we can't go on building more roads".

This suggests to me that what ARUP is saying is "you can have just one more road to fix the mess, but you're not getting any more after that."

If so, it's nonsensical, in my opinion. It seems the proposers of the solution are arguing that it's the wrong solution in the long term, but it's all they have to offer. In effect they are saying they know it's not what they should be doing, but they don't know what else to do.

whatstherush

serfboard wrote: »

Meanwhile, their cars sit outside work all day doing nothing ...

What would their cars being doing otherwise, if they had a got a bus instead, solving world hunger

Robbo

whatstherush wrote: »

What would their cars being doing otherwise, if they had a got a bus instead, solving world hunger

Fighting crime, Knight Rider style.

Zzippy

whatstherush wrote: »

What would their cars being doing otherwise, if they had a got a bus instead, solving world hunger

I may be wrong, not trying to put words in somone else's mouth... but I think the poster was referring to the fact that all those cars clog up the road at morning and evening rush hour i.e. they are only used for an hour or so each day, the rest of the day they are not clogging up said roads, and that much of that clogged up rush hour road space would be freed up if these people had a fast, reliable and efficient public transport system connecting where they live in Knocknacarra etc with the major workplaces on the east side.

Iwannahurl

serfboard wrote: »

Meanwhile, their cars sit outside work all day doing nothing ...

For free.

The proposed €600 million expressway is therefore intended primarily as a means of getting the declared "ten thousand" people resident west of the city quickly (ie less than 15 minutes, presumably) from their free parking spaces in suburbia to their free parking spaces in Parkmore/Ballybrit.

To the best of my knowledge, this economic distortion of the transportation policy environment is not being addressed by the N6 Galway City Transport Project.

I believe it is addressed in the 2010 Public Transport Feasibility Study though.

whatstherush wrote: »

What would their cars being doing otherwise, if they had a got a bus instead, solving world hunger

Robbo wrote: »

Fighting crime, Knight Rider style.

Taking up space is what their doing. Space that could be used much more efficiently and productively.

UCLA's urban planning expert Prof Donald Shoup has decribed "ubiquitous free parking" in the US as a "disease" of the planning system which "works against almost every goal of urban planners", increasing the cost of urban development, degrading urban design, burdening enterprise, promoting car dependence and encouraging urban sprawl.

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

....But rather than focusing just on building more roads, we need to get better value from the existing ones by forcing people not to travelminimising the amount that people need to travel. That means cycling, school buses, making places pedestrian-friendly, forcingencouraging environmental consciousness, forcingencouraging companies to locate west of the river, advising people who post on boards.ie "I'm moving to Galway, where should I live" to feck off somewhere elselive on the same side that they work - and lots of other things.

In other words, a blinkered protectionist unscientificsystemic solution not a simplistic one.

FYP.

I'm not saying that roads are the answer and cycling, public transport, and pedestrianisation are not. But "encouraging" (in reality, forcing) people to not travel by car (Van? Lorry? Ambulance? What are those? They mess with my model, let's plug our ears and sing loudly till they go away.) will elicit one reaction. "F*ck you greeny, I'll get around that bullsh*t law you put up". Just look at the rise of E cigarettes in response to the anti-tobacco laws we have. Read the threads about how "speed cameras are nothing to do with road deaths, just money makers for gubberment. Here's how to get out of speeding fines." and "cyclist helmets are stupid & do nothing for safety".

I'm flabbergasted that the word "holistic" is even brought into this conversation. You don't deal with a blocked artery by "holistic" means, you do it with scientifically proven, peer approved & accountable surgery. Yes, part of the solution to that is a higher controlled diet without the fats that caused the blockage in the first place, but that alone won't save the patient whose heart is in danger of failing. You also need the knifework.

I'm with you that pedestrianisation, cycling & public transport options are good strategies to alleviate traffic pressure & improve the amenity of urban areas (well, large town areas in Galway's case). But Lough Corrib focuses a huge swathe of undeveloped countryside into a stretch of bridgable river 6km long. As the years pass, Connemara will come under huge pressure to be built in as being a desirable location close to a major population centre, traffic problems be damned. We need to plan *now* for that expansion so that we're not forced to knock even more in the future when the population is too big to ignore.

15,20,30,40, 100 years. That's the timescale we need to think in. In that time, unless something catastrophic happens, the population will expand. And as towns around the country expand out into the green space around them, people will move further out & seek undeveloped lands not already built upon. We can build in expectation for them, or tell them through laws to "f*ck off, this is a local town for local people.".

Finally, the anything-but-road argument assumes that cars will remain an environmental problem in the years to come. What happens to that model if Elon Musk's Teslas make the electric car the type of car everyone has?

whatstherush

Iwannahurl wrote: »

For free.


Taking up space is what their doing.

Oh I could have told you that if thats what serfboard had said, but thanks for the reply anyhoo.

youngrun

serfboard wrote: »

Fair enough - you don't cross the river to go to work, and you use your car extensively during the day. But, most of the commuters clogging the QCB are in the opposite situation to you - they do cross the river to work, and they don't need their car during the day - which means they could easily use public transport if it was available.

Meanwhile, their cars sit outside work all day doing nothing ...

Great pic, if even 20% of these car users could be converted to public transport or cycling in the new greenway...would be much less traffic issues....

gordongekko

Zzippy wrote: »

I may be wrong, not trying to put words in somone else's mouth... but I think the poster was referring to the fact that all those cars clog up the road at morning and evening rush hour i.e. they are only used for an hour or so each day, the rest of the day they are not clogging up said roads, and that much of that clogged up rush hour road space would be freed up if these people had a fast, reliable and efficient public transport system connecting where they live in Knocknacarra etc with the major workplaces on the east side.

Of course a random picture is just that. How many of those cars have owners living on the other side of the river. How many live outside Galway city altogether. How many were staying out of Galway the night before. How many have anyone of the hundreds of reasons that public transport would not have worked on that day for them. At the end of the day. A large number of people will need to use cars on a daily basis. It might not suit the bike brigade but it's true.

Zzippy

gordongekko wrote: »

Of course a random picture is just that. How many of those cars have owners living on the other side of the river. How many live outside Galway city altogether. How many were staying out of Galway the night before. How many have anyone of the hundreds of reasons that public transport would not have worked on that day for them. At the end of the day. A large number of people will need to use cars on a daily basis. It might not suit the bike brigade but it's true.

Without referring to a random picture, the figure of 10,000 people commuting from west to east has been mentioned by ARUP/GCC - that's a concrete figure that "bypass" proponents have put out. No one ever claimed it would be possible to convert 100% to PT - we know there are reasons people need to use their cars. If even half those 10,000 people used PT 2-3 times a week, that's a lot of cars off the road and a lot more people in buses taking up less road space. But to do that we need to invest in proper PT. Building a new road without that will never result in an uptake in PT, the opposite, and in 20 years time given expansion of western suburbs and eastside industry we'll have the same problem again...

zarquon

Zzippy wrote: »

And in response to zarquon, I do not live on the route nor do I know anyone on the route. I commute from the east side into town, my job involves a lot of driving including getting out to Connemara frequently, and a "bypass" would certainly make that quicker for me, but I would rather not turf people out of their homes to make my life a fraction easier.

Zzippy wrote: »

What do people think will be the preferred route? Have an interest in a property that may be affected by one, which is causing a lot of stress... do people believe they really don't have a preferred route?

Hmmm. Not quite equivalent i know, but your original objections were based on being directly affected. It's difficult to tell if thats still the case

As an aside i do agree that it is wrong to move people from their homes and i wish there was a better solution for all involved. It is really the fault of the local authority for allowing planning permission for housing in places where it should never have been permitted. Very short sighted behaviour. In particular the amount of one off housing on the city periphery is crazy and unsustainable. Residents of places like letteragh or tonabrooky or menlo must surely realise that their "isolated" rural location with city convenience will one day be fair game for development. Whether that is morally right is another thing, but the council have shown that money talks more than people's rights.

Iwannahurl

Deleted User wrote: »

Finally, the anything-but-road argument assumes that cars will remain an environmental problem in the years to come. What happens to that model if Elon Musk's Teslas make the electric car the type of car everyone has?

Energy-wasting and polluting private cars will remain an environmental problem for years to come, because they are still being manufactured by the million, used in the hundreds of millions and typically have a life-span of at least ten years.

Vehicles with heat engines powered by fossil fuels are multiplying rapidly. In 2013, the world produced over 87 million cars, vans and trucks that need petrol and diesel to run -- a massive increase compared to 10 years before -- and there is no sign of a slowdown. There is massive carbon "lock-in" not just with private transport but with the infrastructure needed to manufacture, distribute and accommodate it.



Large-scale infrastructure is key to reducing carbon lock-in. When a new fossil-fuel-burning car is manufactured, it will typically stay on the road for 10 to 20 years. The built environment is also a critical factor, and its impact is even longer term:

Every new housing development built beyond walking distance from local amenities and every expansion of road infrastructure is predicated on the assumption of abundant energy for private transport. All this extra energy could one day come from carbon free sources -- renewable electricity for cars, say -- but that will only add to the already immense challenge of meeting our energy needs in a low-carbon way.

Infrastructure is also critical because land is finite. Even if every single new motor vehicle went electric overnight, where would they all fit? Are they going to be as small as a bicycle or as space-efficient as a bus?

Of course not. What will happen is that motorists will feel even more entitled to use their space-wasting private transport as they see fit, because they believe the energy-efficiency justifies it. It's called the rebound effect.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

We're also very good at recycling in Galway. Keep it up.


That was worth waiting for alright!

Iwannahurl

Zzippy wrote: »

the possibility of losing your home is a far better reason to be up in arms over this than someone possibly cutting a few minutes off their commute.

So is anybody at all willing to estimate how much time a €600 million expressway will shave off a 15-minute car commute?

The 15-minute car commuters have been somewhat reticent on the subject so far.

zarquon

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So is anybody at all willing to estimate how much time a €600 million expressway will shave off a 15-minute car commute?

The 15-minute car commuters have been somewhat reticent on the subject so far.

I'm less concerned with the commute time which is manageable for the most part. My biggest concern and something which seems to have been overlooked is the opening up of the western city to business development. I am aware of one multinational that looked at sites west of the river and decided for an east side development due to lack of connectivity. The current expressway plans if in place would likely have made a west galway development an attractive proposition.

Certainly the new road will eventually bring jobs west of the corrib which ultimately is a good thing. It certainly helped doughiska being in proximity to parkmore, briarhill and ballybrit.

Zzippy

zarquon wrote: »

I'm less concerned with the commute time which is manageable for the most part. My biggest concern and something which seems to have been overlooked is the opening up of the western city to business development. I am aware of one multinational that looked at sites west of the river and decided for an east side development due to lack of connectivity. The current expressway plans if in place would likely have made a west galway development an attractive proposition.

Certainly the new road will eventually bring jobs west of the corrib which ultimately is a good thing. It certainly helped doughiska being in proximity to parkmore, briarhill and ballybrit.

A somewhat more laudable objective, but where are these companies going to build new premises? Most of the west side has been built up already with commuter suburbs, expansion is limited by the terrain and protected bogs north and west of the existing suburbs. Expansion of the east side is much more likely, with open undesignated farmland and more suitable terrain extending well east of Parkmore etc.

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So is anybody at all willing to estimate how much time a €600 million expressway will shave off a 15-minute car commute?

The 15-minute car commuters have been somewhat reticent on the subject so far.

15 minute commute from where to where? Plus at what time Back in 2006/2007 ye only see 15 minutes from Salthill to Ballybrit if you were leaving around 7:30, which is grand if you work somewhere that has flexi hours, however if ye have to be at your desk at 9 (and don't get to "clock off early" for been in early) than ye basically working 5 free hours a week just to reduce morning commute. That and it would still take over an hour in the evening to get back.

I can't imagine traffic has improved much in the intervening 8 years.

Iwannahurl

gordongekko wrote: »

A large number of people will need to use cars on a daily basis. It might not suit the bike brigade but it's true.

A large number of commuters want to use their cars, but don't need to (ie short distances that could be easily travelled by other means) or else they just don't want to consider alternatives.

Your dismissal of the "bike brigade" ignores the potential role of modes of travel other than the typical single-occupant private car. Public transport is the most obvious and the most important. It might not suit the private car brigade, but the reality is that any sustainable solution to Galway's traffic and transportation problems must require a major rethink on the use of private transport. This is being done elsewhere, and it's about time we caught up.

youngrun wrote: »

Great pic, if even 20% of these car users could be converted to public transport or cycling in the new greenway...would be much less traffic issues....

Not only that, but if the space wasted on vast swathes of surface car-parking were used for more efficient and productive purposes, there would be less car-dependent sprawl and more room for efficient modes of transport.

zarquon

Zzippy wrote: »

A somewhat more laudable objective, but where are these companies going to build new premises? Most of the west side has been built up already with commuter suburbs, expansion is limited by the terrain and protected bogs north and west of the existing suburbs. Expansion of the east side is much more likely, with open undesignated farmland and more suitable terrain extending well east of Parkmore etc.

There are sites available. As previously mentioned, i know of one multinational that identified a site west of the corrib as part of an expansion plan. The lack of access routes was the nail in the coffin for the proposal and the expansion went ahead on the east side.

There is an imbalance in the city with most of the jobs on the east side due primarily to convenient access to national routes. Something needs to be done to open up west galway to business development, not residential development. I think we can all agree that residential development has been and probably will be badly managed going forward. I would never in a millions years even consider a house in menlo, castlegar, tonabrooky, etc as i know that eventually additional development will take place and put such a residence at risk. Unfortunately i think the naiveity of people looking for a rural paradise right on the city periphery is astonishing. If you want a rural life then ensure you buy a suitable rural location will outside the city boundaries. For those that owned property for decades, i can understand the difficulty and i wouldn't hold them as even slightly responsible but for those who purchased "rural" city properties within the last 10 years or so, i just find it incredibly naive that that they thought the city would never look to expand further. It seems some people forgot the days when bohermore was the edge of the city!

dubhthach

Zzippy wrote: »

A somewhat more laudable objective, but where are these companies going to build new premises? Most of the west side has been built up already with commuter suburbs, expansion is limited by the terrain and protected bogs north and west of the existing suburbs. Expansion of the east side is much more likely, with open undesignated farmland and more suitable terrain extending well east of Parkmore etc.

I would imagine the only area that could potentially be zoned on west side would be around the areas that the proposed N59 link road will run. (eg. mincloon, letteragh), if you talking about manufacturing at least they would have good access to national road system.

Though I'd imagine ye probably would be more looking at something like Dagan IDA estate which is specifically office oriented.

Iwannahurl

dubhthach wrote: »

15 minute commute from where to where? Plus at what time Back in 2006/2007 ye only see 15 minutes from Salthill to Ballybrit if you were leaving around 7:30, which is grand if you work somewhere that has flexi hours, however if ye have to be at your desk at 9 (and don't get to "clock off early" for been in early) than ye basically working 5 free hours a week just to reduce morning commute. That and it would still take over an hour in the evening to get back.

I can't imagine traffic has improved much in the intervening 8 years.

>>>

zarquon wrote: »

This is true, however for me, it's a 25 walk to the 405 and then 40mins to an hour in traffic as far as ballybrit. Then another 5 min walk after. All in somewhere between 70 and 90 mins with 3 KM of walking involved too. Alternative 15 mins in the car. It's not a difficult choice for me and those in the same position as me.

crusier

Iwannahurl wrote: »

So is anybody at all willing to estimate how much time a €600 million expressway will shave off a 15-minute car commute?

The 15-minute car commuters have been somewhat reticent on the subject so far.

Are you talking about the section from bushypark to the Westwood in the mornings?

Iwannahurl

zarquon wrote: »

I'm less concerned with the commute time which is manageable for the most part.

You said earlier that your 15-minute car commute was in stark contrast to the time taken to use public transport.

The entire N6 Galway City Transport Project seems to be centred on commute times, traffic delays etc.

It's therefore a relevant question, imo: what effect will the expressway have on already "manageable" car commute times, such as your 15-minutes west-east trip?

dubhthach

Iwannahurl wrote: »

>>>

So his personal experience is suddenly the commute time for everyone crossing the Corrib? Wow that's some deep research by you.

zarquon

dubhthach wrote: »

So his personal experience is suddenly the commute time for everyone crossing the Corrib? Wow that's some deep research by you.

Yep, i have a 15 minute commute at 7am when he still pouring his kids cornflakes or hugging his pillow therefore he extrapolates everyone west of the corrib must surely have the same commute experience 24x7!One person's experience being presented as a large cross sectional sample - that's enough for me to ignore any pretense statistical analysis by such posters when they are working from erroneous or poor data samples to begin with

I very much doubt IWH has to commute from barna to parkmore after dropping the kids to school otherwise his tone would be very different. It's easy for people to critisice a project that they get little or no direct benefit from and instead propose plans that would make their own lives much more convenient whilst pretending to have the "greater good" at heart. There is an incredible amount of disengenuous posting happening from certain opponents to the road who pretend they have the greater good at the city at heart when it's quite clear they have their own needs and agendas as the primary motivator in their opposition.

If IWH thinks it genuinely takes 15 minutes for people to travel from knocknacarra to parkmore, back and forth during rush hour then it only proves that he has never undertaken this route during peak traffic and therefore has no interest or benefit in the road which gives him the freedom to be an opponent to something he has no actual need for as it's of no benefit to him.

If the council built a €500m light rail line and QBC directly from his house to his place of work and kid's school, would he cry about the waste of resource and lack of integrated planning - doubtful to say the least