Electric cars

derry

robtri wrote: »

Actually it is a reality, so the time is now already, but I do take it on board it could be along while before we see it everywhere....
but it is getting there, slowly....
The distribution of hydrogen for the purpose of transportation is currently being tested around the world, particularly in Portugal, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, California, Japan and Canada

Really testing hydrogen is a long way from having it as a major fuel solution.Some of these four seater test cars have the two back seats unuseable as the Hydrogen tank and Hyrogen fuel cells take up all the room in the luggage compartments and all the space of the rear seats.
Not very family car friendly.Unless something very new pops up the term slowly getting there means more like the year 2099 before we will see hydrogen fuel cell cars everywhere

robtri wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a fantastic achievement, a good car, still haven't seen the specs and waiting to see how it gets on passing all the safety and other regulations in the US and Europe...
my only concern at the moment is where china get the electricity for the car,

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/1252

not a very green car semingly....

Seems to be some good specs .It uses a LIthuim ferrous derived type cell.These types will fast charge typicaly less than 30 minutes to recharge to 100% .For 50% recharge that is done in the first ten minutes and requres 20 minutes to fill the remaining 50%as internal restance slows down recharging .Typical 2000 plus cycles.When battery is flat the petrol engine comes on and supply power to go several hundred miles .The battery range although fairly small enough is for most commuters daily needs OK without a need for the petrol engine to start up.
Electric demand to recharge at night time which is non peak time and typical time most cars would be recharged could probably allow China and other countries not to need extra power stations to recharge the batteries.


Derry

Tar.Aldarion

BendiBus wrote: »

Where?

Schwarzenegger announced his intentions to install hydrogen filling stations every 20 miles along major highways in california before 2010. :eek:

derry

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Schwarzenegger announced his intentions to install hydrogen filling stations every 20 miles along major highways in california before 2010. :eek:

Schwarzenegger is just a dumbass politition.Its fuel supply companies that will supply the refueling points .The oil giants like hydrogen in this time as they make it from oil in this time .Therefore in this time the oil companies sell the oil to be burnt up in the hydrogen making process so that cars can burn clean hydrogen fuel . The long term plan to make hydrogen from renewables which dont burn oil is long way off so the oil companies are laughing all the way.


Basicaly anything that involves changing power from one type of power to another to refuel electric cars risks to be more ineffiecent than burning fuels such as bio fuels directly


Having a bucket load of bio fuel producing farmers is less likely to have a cartel power compared to a few big oil company giants who supply oil to make hydrogen


Derry

keithjohnston

I have been working in electric vehicles for six years, originally as the MD of GoinGreen, the UK distributor for REVA and now as President of European Operations for REVA. I am always interested to read threads and would like to contribute a little.
Firstly electric cars are the future for environmental reasons above all else. They are the only affordable, practical solution that will get us to zero vehicle emissions and ultra low well to wheel emissions quickly enough, most probably as a combination of electricity powered by wind and/or solar, possibly with a fuel cell component in future. Today, even when you charge a REVA in the UK using ordinary grid electricity it is about two thirds cleaner than he average car and of course virtually 100% sustainable and pollution free if you charge using electricity from renewable sources.
Secondly, electric cars can save you a lot of money. In London the REVA will reduce your motoring costs by about 90% compared to an average saloon, partly through low purchase price and virtually non existent fuel costs, but also through benefits such as no road tax, no congestion charge and free / reduced cost parking. There are many incentives in cities across Europe now, some with several thousand euro purchase subsidies.
Thirdly electric cars work. The REVA L-ion, the lithium-ion powered version of the current vehicle due for aarival in Europe in May offers a range of 75 miles and a top speed of 50 mph. This is sufficient for 95% of all car journeys without recharging and the ideal city commuter car. Used as a second caer or as a first car in conjunction with a car club, I believe this is the way forward.
Finally, city EVs such as the REVA have an exemplary safety record. To date, the REVA has completed 55 million kms of customer driving in 10 cities without a single serious injury.
So, if you can afford to spend £50,000 to £100,000 on an electric car then there are some exciting choices. If you want to go to work and back cleanly and inexpensively and save enough money each year to pay for a couple of luxury holidays, whilst helping to ensure that your children will have a future, then buy the world's best selling EV, the REVA (G-Wiz in the UK).

Best wishes to everyone

Keith Johnston

robtri

robtri wrote: »

The problem I see here is two fold.... and a big Concern at the end

how green is an electric car?????????

ok lets look at the REVA here,
say you do 10,000km a year in it...
at 9.66KWh of energy for 70Km thats is 1380KW per year...
at eleccy grid co2 emmissions( I had to use the UK numbers didn't have irish) that equates to 0.741t of Co2 a year....

lets compare it to a good diesel engined car....
again for comparision 10,000Km a year..
a good diesel can average 25Km a litre ( i am using a VW polo for example also to note apeugeot 307 HDI production car holds record at approx 33km/l)
so for a 10,000km a year diesel car thats 400L of fuel which equates to
0.988T of C02 a year...

Don't get me wrong 247kg of Co2 is a nice saving a year ..... but the cars are not as green as people believe....


factors based on number from below
http://www.carbontrust.co.uk/resource/conversion_factors/default.htm

and
http://www.comcar.co.uk/newcar/companycar/poolresults/co2litre.cfm?fueltype=diesel

keithjohnston wrote: »

I have been working in electric vehicles for six years, originally as the MD of GoinGreen, the UK distributor for REVA and now as President of European Operations for REVA. I am always interested to read threads and would like to contribute a little.
Firstly electric cars are the future for environmental reasons above all else. They are the only affordable, practical solution that will get us to zero vehicle emissions and ultra low well to wheel emissions quickly enough, most probably as a combination of electricity powered by wind and/or solar, possibly with a fuel cell component in future. Today, even when you charge a REVA in the UK using ordinary grid electricity it is about two thirds cleaner than he average car and of course virtually 100% sustainable and pollution free if you charge using electricity from renewable sources.
Secondly, electric cars can save you a lot of money. In London the REVA will reduce your motoring costs by about 90% compared to an average saloon, partly through low purchase price and virtually non existent fuel costs, but also through benefits such as no road tax, no congestion charge and free / reduced cost parking. There are many incentives in cities across Europe now, some with several thousand euro purchase subsidies.
Thirdly electric cars work. The REVA L-ion, the lithium-ion powered version of the current vehicle due for aarival in Europe in May offers a range of 75 miles and a top speed of 50 mph. This is sufficient for 95% of all car journeys without recharging and the ideal city commuter car. Used as a second caer or as a first car in conjunction with a car club, I believe this is the way forward.
Finally, city EVs such as the REVA have an exemplary safety record. To date, the REVA has completed 55 million kms of customer driving in 10 cities without a single serious injury.
So, if you can afford to spend £50,000 to £100,000 on an electric car then there are some exciting choices. If you want to go to work and back cleanly and inexpensively and save enough money each year to pay for a couple of luxury holidays, whilst helping to ensure that your children will have a future, then buy the world's best selling EV, the REVA (G-Wiz in the UK).

Best wishes to everyone

Keith Johnston

I do think electric cars will be the future but the Reva is not that green or enviromental, see numbers above...

BendiBus

keithjohnston wrote: »

Firstly electric cars are the future for environmental reasons above all else.

Personally I think electric cars have a future, not for environmental reasons, but for reasons of energy (and national) security.

We currently rely on a small number of dodgy countries for almost all our transport needs due to the requirement for fossil fuels to run our vehicles.

EVs aren't fussy about what fuel generates the electricity that powers them. So we can run them on wind wave, biomass etc.

That they result in cleaner air and a generally improved environment is a tremendous bonus but, politically and economically, energy security is the driver (excuse the pun!).

Cheeble

Bendibus, I can forgive the dreadful pun, but only because what you say is otherwise sound.

Keith Johnson, I wish people would stop calling electric cars "zero emmissions vehicles". What they do is move the point of emission back up the supply chain to the power generator, so the emissions depend on the generator fuel mix.
Zero emissions means walking, or not going on an unnecessary journey at all.
Arguably going in someone else's car in a car share is more of a zero emission journey (at least on a marginal analysis) than using an electric car powered by a CCGT power station.
I think this misnomer is another example of overselling which threatens to discredit an otherwise good idea.

Mahatma coat

Now this may seem like a daft question but

If I went out and bought a Tesla, could I not just stick a Generator in the boot and use that to keep the batteries charged?

I have a Diesel Honda generator with a Push button start that I can run on BioDiesel, it gives (according to the Specs) 4.5KVA (9Hp)

so If I had a decent exhaust system etc could I not just do that, the Generator will power the house during work ( running Welders, saws and drills as well as a fridge a computer and the lights) for about 8 hours on about 2L of diesel

it can run for a lot longer on a reduced load.

so why wouldnt that work as a hybrid? what am I missing

it looks like one of these,


should fit in the boot of a reasonable sized car

keithjohnston

Cheeble wrote: »

Bendibus, I can forgive the dreadful pun, but only because what you say is otherwise sound.

Keith Johnson, I wish people would stop calling electric cars "zero emmissions vehicles". What they do is move the point of emission back up the supply chain to the power generator, so the emissions depend on the generator fuel mix.
Zero emissions means walking, or not going on an unnecessary journey at all.
Arguably going in someone else's car in a car share is more of a zero emission journey (at least on a marginal analysis) than using an electric car powered by a CCGT power station.
I think this misnomer is another example of overselling which threatens to discredit an otherwise good idea.

zero emission is the correct term, that is, the vehicle emits no emissions. zero polluting would be an incorrect term.

keithjohnston

robtri wrote: »

I do think electric cars will be the future but the Reva is not that green or enviromental, see numbers above...

This is an often confused area. The REVA emissions figure is well-to-wheel, whereas the diesel figure does not include any element of embedded carbon in the fuel generation other than the burning of the liquid. You are not comparing like for like in your figures.

robtri

keithjohnston wrote: »

This is an often confused area. The REVA emissions figure is well-to-wheel, whereas the diesel figure does not include any element of embedded carbon in the fuel generation other than the burning of the liquid. You are not comparing like for like in your figures.

Fair point, do you have well to wheel for both diesel and Reva, assuming reva is working of the standard electrical production in the UK of CO2

Cheeble

keithjohnston wrote: »

zero emission is the correct term, that is, the vehicle emits no emissions. zero polluting would be an incorrect term.

So, I guess you worked in marketing then?

derry

keithjohnston wrote: »

This is an often confused area. The REVA emissions figure is well-to-wheel, whereas the diesel figure does not include any element of embedded carbon in the fuel generation other than the burning of the liquid. You are not comparing like for like in your figures.

This type of debate wont do EV (electric vehicles ) much good in the long run
Dont get me wrong as I am a fan of the progress of EV (electric vehicles ) and Hybrid HEV ( Hybrid electric vehicles ) and PHEV (Plug In Hybrid electric vehicles )

When we compare a REVA or similar small EV we are not remotly comparing like with like when we look small cars like even a Nizzan micra.The REVA EV is so much smaller that it falls into the class of quadcycle rules as in curb weight makes it closer to the motor cycle class and as such in the UK and the rest of the EU class them as Quadcycles.

We would have to compare the REVA to something like Qaud bike with a REVA body to get a closer comparison and then the green creditetials would be reduced

At the end of the day the cities of Europe need cars which are not burning fuels in our face and emmitting any of the complex molicules and soots that exit the tail pipe with a lowwer than average global energy effiency that can be obtained from internal combustion engines

As a pro public transport person having enjoyed living in decent public transport cities around Europe I am not a fan of car ownerhip be it REVA or any type of car

However there are times that cars are useful for that short spin less than 50 miles return to the country side and or the shoppping run .

The princible of car sharing from a car share pool like
http://www.gocar.ie/
but instead to use only expensive 4 seater cars for the likes of me who often only need a small 2 seater or ecomonic quazi 4 seater like a REVA could work well for me and others like me .
The Electric EV cars often for fleets offer tremendous maintinace saving over more complex IC solutions and could be the soultion to cover the gaps the Public transport cant cover

At the moment in Dublin I run a ~50MPG small hatchback economic 1000cc 1998 jap car and no matter what way I run the numbers it s nearly always cheaper per mile to use it than to use bus service and soultion like go car except if I had to park the thing in the city center but most of my travels are suburban where I seek out free parking even if I have to walk 1/2 mile (Yeah I am a tight so and so)
Nowadays I use the car for most all transport and for example park in Harlods cross and walk into town or unfold my folder bike rather than give CIE the money for the bus.

Owning a REVA or any EV in ROI when I run the numbers doesnt add up for me in this time .The range issue once its a proper 75 miles isnt that big a deal as I only do a 50 mile return on weekends saterday sunday country spin.

The problems are that a replacement battery once it used up it ~1000 cycles costs nearly half the price for the car.When I factor in those cost on top of the costs of the electric per mile and the deprecation costs of the car the costs per mile are getting similar to small petrol/deisel car. I still got the parking costs issues using the electic car in Dublin and the big issue of no place to recharge expcept maybe a few token car parks that costs big money to park in


A go car solution if it existed inDublin based on Cork prices is to expensive as the cost to take car on a Saterday drive thirty miles park up do my thing and return the car after 10 hours would cost me more than owning a car .The hourly rate to hold onto these cars makes even a daily rental for a petrol car possibly cheaper

However a cheaper REVA solution on a saterday or sunday with public transport in between with maybe the odd shopping trip one hour to do the bulk shopping with nearby collection points might work for even a tight wad like me.
Throw in things like membership for the other cities of Europe like Paris Berlin etc and you might convince that switching from metro service to REVA EV to cover the gaps that public transport will do will then beat Internal combustion engines solutions from small cars


It best to forget this green angle as the the global warming from CO2 now looks to be a myth.The peak oil looks to be a myth.The Oil will cost us a fortune looks to be another Myth.The Bio fuel solutions are going to take longer to implement than would be liked .The Wind energy and renewables most likely wont be effective at more than 25% of our needs for several decades yet.

What isnt changing is that car ownership isnt that attracive anymore and city space to build roads to take more cars is limited and expensive. Solutions like Ryan air , Fast trains , rapid urban transport solutions and similar will be the main way to go from A to B .Then we need much cheaper go car solutions to fill the gaps that the other solutions dont give us presently.

The old adage is BMW in south africa couldnt get much sales penertration in South Africa and the car was much cheaper there as they made the car in South Africa (In fact even today all version 3 sold in Europe are all made in South Africa ).
South Africa made a 4 year fixed cost 50,000 mile package with a finance soultion if you needed it and suddenly BMW sales went orbital.
Effectivaly the majorty of BMW owners never really owned the car but knew thier costs were fixxed (except fuel )no suprises for four year and then get a new one and that was the what the customer wanted fixxed cost motoring .

I dont want to own any car but I would like to use one cheaper than owning one and I dont give a rats if its electric or petrol whatever as long as its cheaper and the maths show for that Electric might be cheaper on a larger scale

In London its a no brainer to own a EV like a REVA as they dont pay the congestion charges and get reduced parking costs .In London like most of Europe 70% plus of people move on public transport

In Dublin while less than 25% move on Public transport and there is no benifit like cheaper parking or no parking charges plus no recharge points owning EV or REVA is marginaly interesting even with a 75 mile range

It will be accidentaly more green if the REVA fleets move us around but not a whole lot but noise reductions and less emmisions in cities might make city life that bit better.

Derry

quentingargan

If Ireland gets to produced 40% of its electricity from renewables, then we have a need to increase consumption of electricity off-peak, at night when everyone is in the scratcher.

This is when electric cars come into their own. I've been using a Citroen Berlingo Electrique for the last few years. Great for nipping in and out of town, and the cost of running it is equivalent to about 175 miles per gallon.

The CO2 under the current electricity regime is poor - you're right about that. But charging electric cars on off-peak electricity from wind turbines is a clever way of stabilising grid consumption, and can foster the increase of renewable power on the grid....:)

derry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Now this may seem like a daft question but

If I went out and bought a Tesla, could I not just stick a Generator in the boot and use that to keep the batteries charged?

I have a Diesel Honda generator with a Push button start that I can run on BioDiesel, it gives (according to the Specs) 4.5KVA (9Hp)

so If I had a decent exhaust system etc could I not just do that, the Generator will power the house during work ( running Welders, saws and drills as well as a fridge a computer and the lights) for about 8 hours on about 2L of diesel

it can run for a lot longer on a reduced load.

so why wouldnt that work as a hybrid? what am I missing

it looks like one of these,


should fit in the boot of a reasonable sized car

Benn looking the REVA but dont know enough for the spec for a Telsa to say what can work for that

http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/gwiz_faq/#models
http://www.goingreen.co.uk/store/content/gwiz_techspec

REVA has 8 X 6volt wet cell 200 amp hour batteries. Recharge time is 8 hours about ~ 10 kwh or 10 units for full and 2.5 hours charge is 80% full from a 220 volt outlet of ~13 amps

In theory fitting a suitably powerful generator that can supply this power demand should be able to rechage the REVA when the batterry is empty.

Maths suggest a 4.5 kw hour type is suitable but a 3 kilowatt might strugle to supply the full power.

240 volt 13 amps =~3000 watts or 3kw
Most generators rated 3 kw are really ~2.5 kilowatts continious steady state and 3kw burst mode eg power tools like drills of short duration bursts and therfore often burn out if you demand 3kw continious

Putting a suitable generator in the boot err back seat?? with no fuel in its tank for safety from fire risks eg buy fuel at the destination mean you can wait 8 hours recharge the car at some destination you went to and return home 8 hours latter

EG range of REVA is 45 miles on a good day with following wind and all downhill so lets assume its real world 30 miles.So you set off to say a the mates house 30 miles away where the is no charger like say a flat in rathmines .You get there park up the REVA.THen you start up generator which is on the foot path with a power lead whatever and let it run for 8 hours while you park your butt in the mates gaff.You exit switch of the generator and now fully charged you go home.Of course there is the fact that if the generator set fire it will risk to grill your car and your insurance probably wont pay up.Also the noise will attract the robbers who will see a nice generator to rob or the noise will piss of the locals who will do nasty things to your heap .You would also need to guard against water or liquid spills which might edumicate (electricute)you or the locals who walk past when it starts raining and electric power leaks onto the pavement

(This modification generator while driving would be entirly at your own risk and is extremly risky possibly lethal .It could probably annul your Insurance and road tax rules and possibly kerb side weight rules and is basically a mine feild of broken regulations both safety and government transport classification laws .These facts coupled with extremly highrisks for carbon monoixde poisioning risks and fire risk from spilt fuels make this extremly high risk potentialy lethal combination for home brew expermenters )
Fitting the generator to do the charging on the trot as you drive would be difficult to gaurd agains fire and electiric power issues and also carbon monoxide .If you cracked that issue I would imagine its better to wait for batterry to drop to 80% cappassity so as not to risk overcharging wet cell batteries which might vent explosive hydrogen gasses especialy if over charged .Remember your ass is close to a lot of acid which if it isnt rechaging is normally quite safe but it get bubbly and frothy and explosive when recharging .Most people dont sit in cars when they recharge so if the rechaging goes pear shaped only the car normally gets it in the neck .
(Wet Cell lead acid batteries and even sealed lead acid SLA vent hydrogen gas while charging up which can form pockets of explosive gasses in the car while charging up )AS the REVA car and many similar EV have solution to guard against this the addition of a Hybrid generator solutions might require the drilling of extra holes to pass new power output leads to supply the power which could easily risk to exceed the design specs safety soltions the REVA car and similar cars have to vent gasses safely.

Then other risks exist like water liquid spilt onto 220 volts generator like spilt coffee whatever could fry you nuts and kill you or your passengers stone dead

I think I saw that Telsa can also supply a pull along trailer that has a suitable generator.I suspect generator is more like 20 kw closer to small car sized engines.The Telsa uses some $30,000 or bucket load of Lithuim ion batterys which are fragile if charged wrongly.Home brew generators tend to have a dirty 220 volt output eg full for spikes and noise and requires in line expensive power supply filters to reduce power spikes etc

If you hooked the generator wrongly to a Telasa and you broke the Lithuim Ion batteries it would be expensive experment .Also many types of lithuim Ion when they get recharged wrongly can burst into fire like the laptops do, except the fire would be a lot bigger as there is like ~5000 laptop batteries in there

Probaly cheaper to buy a ready made Hybrid

Derry

quentingargan

The electric-car-with-generator is exactly what GM is doing with its new Volt car to be launched next year. Having buried its EV for all the wrong reasons, it is now re-branding itself as an electric car company.

Toyota is also planning to up the battery size in its Prius so that it can do the first 40 odd miles on battery before the engine is needed. There are companies alreay doing plug-in hybrid mods to existing Prius cars.:cool:

derry

quentingargan wrote: »

The electric-car-with-generator is exactly what GM is doing with its new Volt car to be launched next year. Having buried its EV for all the wrong reasons, it is now re-branding itself as an electric car company.

Toyota is also planning to up the battery size in its Prius so that it can do the first 40 odd miles on battery before the engine is needed. There are companies alreay doing plug-in hybrid mods to existing Prius cars.:cool:

I know I keep up to speed on all the developments

A simple example for you is a Pruis replacement standard hybrid pruis battery NIMH which supplies ball park 150,000 miles in Hybrid use or about ~20,000 miles in PHEV mode on the international market costs $3500

Most of the PHEV versions are just take a standard Pruis hybrid and add on an exta battery with some electronic exta tricks and then you got a PHEV Pruis which can go 20 miles before recharging .Take a more expensive modern Pruis with more expensive Lithuim Ion and add a more expensive extra Lithuim Ion battery package you got 40 mile PHEV Pruis

Now lets take joe soap me who spend average ~€20 euros a week on petrol in my 1000cc 1998 compact tiny jap car getting 50MPG and average journey 10 miles a trip so range of 200 miles a week. I spend €1000 a year on fuel and travel ~10,000 miles a year.

Now lets say for example I got lucky I got a 1998 Pruis for nothing which does 50MPG and I got a second battery for $3500 about ~€2700 (smuggled in no VAT and transport ) and fitted the extra battery and jimmied up the electronics so now it was a 20 mile range PHEV abilty

Assuming that for the next few years I always stay below 20 mile jouneys it will take 2.7 years for me to get my money back.At best the battery has maybe 60,000 miles abilty in PHEV mode or worst 20,000 miles (replace before I get 2.7 years) or lets say ball park 30,000 miles .
Thats roughly the same as petrol costs at 50 MPG and doesnt include electric bill costs which adds on about 10% to that
(If I got 40,000 miles I would get one years running for free and possibly save €1000 for that year. However there is a strong risk the original battery that came with the older car would have crapped out at less than 30,000 miles)

I will be probably be replacing the battery every ~4 year years.The problem is the replacement will now have to be two batteries @ $3500 so now we are looking at ~€5400 to go another 40,000 miles.This time the cost per mile will nearly double or cost me closer to € 2000 euros a year . So if petrol prices doubled to €2.50 a liter I would still be winning a bit.At €2.00 a liter or less I would be for sure losing on this deal

Now if I throw in the real world cost to buy a second hand 1998 Pruis the real cost to import a replacement battery the fitting costs and the electronic controller kit etc I would be getting mugged unless i got lucky and petrol became more than ~€3 euros a liter.

As for the premuim costs to buy a new Pruis I could buy 3 cheap small cars that run on petrol and tow two behind me in case one broke down and still be ahead of the game in terms of fuel costs saving

I supect to get your money back on a new PHEV Pruis you would have to do ~100,000 miles a year with most journeys arranged to be in 40 miles slots where you PHEV it,or petrol would have to cost €30 euros a gallon(~€7 a liter).


However a super rich sh!t head who has to be some location like work fuel crisis or no fuel crisis then the abilty to go 40 miles without any fuel is priceless.

Really the maths shows electric to be maybe economic with todays battery prices is still in the smaller cars (quadcyles)REVA or similar EV of less than 10KW power or sub 60MPH speeds.The biggest potensial saving are probably more from reduced wear and tear and maintinace saving cost more so than fuel costs

However battery tecknolgy abilities is growing nearly exponentialy so in ten years time I suspect that Electric for many city run about cars will be EV or HEV or PHEV

Derry

towel401

Mahatma coat wrote: »

should fit in the boot of a reasonable sized car

that generator won't fit in a tesla. maybe it will in the Model S

so you'll get around 20 miles range for every hour you leave it running. more if you drive slower than about 50mph

Mahatma coat

thanks lads,so It wouldnt fit inthboot of a Tesla then I care not about the economics of g-wiz there is no way I'd drive one, and I cant se me draggin a site Genny around behind a sleek sportscar.

The Volt seems to be alongthe samelines of thought,use the engine to power the batteries and have a pure electric drivetrain, Can we get one with a V8:)

as of yet there does not appear to be an incentive for me to give up driving my 300SE, seeing as I live in Australia

the one thing thatI wouldbe interested in is

would it be possible to retrofit the start stop ignition technology to older cars?

derry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

thanks lads,so It wouldnt fit inthboot of a Tesla then I care not about the economics of g-wiz there is no way I'd drive one, and I cant se me draggin a site Genny around behind a sleek sportscar.

The Volt seems to be alongthe samelines of thought,use the engine to power the batteries and have a pure electric drivetrain, Can we get one with a V8:)

as of yet there does not appear to be an incentive for me to give up driving my 300SE, seeing as I live in Australia

the one thing thatI wouldbe interested in is

would it be possible to retrofit the start stop ignition technology to older cars?

You can convert most anything yourself if you throw big bucks at it.I seen on the net trains and big trucks converted tp electric or deisel electric. Big V 8 cars have been converted to run on as EV using a big bank $ 6000 to $12000 of lead acid batteries under the hood in the USA .No big deal to stick a bigger site gennie in the boot if you protect adainst fire and carbon monovide and safty issues .Problem is you probably never make your money back on average as lead acid is often less than ~1000 cycles.And the top speed and range sucks .
Most good meckanics can jimmy up a Stop start teck solutions that can be retro fitted to any car. But again it might take twenty years to get back the investment .

For info on home electric convertions surf the net and there is hundreds of guys who have done it world wide.

http://www.electroauto.com/

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/electric-car-conversion.html

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tech-transport/diy-electric-car-questions.html

http://ev-convert.net/electric-car-conversions/4-project-forkenswift-electric-car-conversion-its-legal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid


The only ones who seem to be economic are the small cars like nizzan micra.Maybe if you got a milk float second hand that might be econonomic to switch out the gear into a V8
a link
good info on revamping old LEAD ACID BATTERIES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzIMq9JdbfA&feature=related

Then this looks to be an interesting kit when its available that can do a V8

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html

But the dragging around of 6 big 120 to 200 amp hour batteries might put your fuel bill up and wipe out sving when in slow traffic in town



Derry

Daroxtar

I have some questions

1/ why do most of the companies developing electric cars offer us the ugliest most pathetic looking cars ever seen? was that episode of the simpsons with the pink eco car really the truth? if you want to sell electric cars then make them look like the batmobile, or at least make them like the tesla or iceni. i mean come on toyota, is the prius supposed to be attractive? its fkn rotten.

2/Why not cover electric/hybrid cars with solar cells to help with the charging while driving? I'm no scientist or engineer but is this not obvious? To my mind its a no brainer. Every year we see some sleek looking thing racing around the desert covered with solar cells so why not mix the 2 technologies? I know that we dont get much direct sunlight here but are we not told by the manufacturer of these things that they operate well in cloudy conditions?
anyway, thats my tuppence worth,
cheers

derry

Daroxtar wrote: »

I have some questions

1/ why do most of the companies developing electric cars offer us the ugliest most pathetic looking cars ever seen? was that episode of the simpsons with the pink eco car really the truth? if you want to sell electric cars then make them look like the batmobile, or at least make them like the tesla or iceni. i mean come on toyota, is the prius supposed to be attractive? its fkn rotten.

2/Why not cover electric/hybrid cars with solar cells to help with the charging while driving? I'm no scientist or engineer but is this not obvious? To my mind its a no brainer. Every year we see some sleek looking thing racing around the desert covered with solar cells so why not mix the 2 technologies? I know that we dont get much direct sunlight here but are we not told by the manufacturer of these things that they operate well in cloudy conditions?
anyway, thats my tuppence worth,
cheers

Question 2 first.Soalar cells.The size of Solar cell to suppply the power for a avarage car to drive in the tropics would be the size of a tennis ball pitch.In ROI where the sun shine power is about 25% of the tropics the size of the solar cells would be more like a football pitch

The power from the sun to acarry it in or on the car doeasnt add up as it is limited to 1400watts per sqare meter at the tropics at mid day and some 300 watts in ROI at miday so late afternoon in ROI no power worth talking about

Fancy shapes add weight and cost .Weight reduces range andcost reduces buyers


At speeds below 30mph the shape has no bearing on air resistance worth talking about.Sleek shapes pay better for speeds above 60mph

Find a solution to that problem and your a winner

solar power farms suppplying electricity to car batteries might be interesting use of big barren regions like deserts for USA or similar
link for cheapo solar power in the pipe line

to run your house in ROI you need about an acre of low power 5% solar panels

http://www.kqed.org/quest/television/view/399

For ROI wind power into the grid is a beetter bet

Derry

PirateShampoo

Hydrogen Cars are the way forward not electric.

towel401

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Hydrogen Cars are the way forward not electric.

most hydrogen cars [except the bmw hydrogen7] are electric. they even have one of those nasty lithium ion batteries

derry

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Hydrogen Cars are the way forward not electric.

Its easy to make sweeping statement .Its like saying petrol cars are the way forward.I mean where does this Hydrogen come from .How is the hydrogen stored .Does getting the hydrogen require breaking oil into hydrogen and some oil waste product .Why not just burn oil as a fuel direct and save the hassle of breaking the oil for making hydrogen and then how to get rid of the waste oil product which isnt a useful hydrogen fuel

Come on if hydrogen is better explain the tecky stuff how its gonna be better.

Or maybe set up hydrogen is a better religion in religion forums if it is some religious belief system????

Derry

robtri

derry wrote: »

Its easy to make sweeping statement .Its like saying petrol cars are the way forward.I mean where does this Hydrogen come from .How is the hydrogen stored .Does getting the hydrogen require breaking oil into hydrogen and some oil waste product .Why not just burn oil as a fuel direct and save the hassle of breaking the oil for making hydrogen and then how to get rid of the waste oil product which isnt a useful hydrogen fuel

Come on if hydrogen is better explain the tecky stuff how its gonna be better.

Or maybe set up hydrogen is a better religion in religion forums if it is some religious belief system????

Derry

they don't use oil for the manufacture of hydrogen.....
Pure hydrogen is manufactured industrially by the steam reforming of natural gas, and by the electrolysis Of water.

derry

robtri wrote: »

they don't use oil for the manufacture of hydrogen.....
Pure hydrogen is manufactured industrially by the steam reforming of natural gas, and by the electrolysis Of water.

Hydrogen can be made with eletrolisis and various chemicaal ways .Often they all have one theme they require power to do that. Often that power is from oil coal gas or other fossil fuels .So what the issue is the power input for hydrogen to be made is often meaning the closed loop power cycle of hydrogen is way worse than if you use fossil fuels direct and often even worse than using battery solutions

So just on the hydrogen fuel fabrication would you like to show us the latest
methods just in case there is some new methods we dont know and can make hydrogen more attractive

Derry

quentingargan

I'm clearly a fan of conspiracy therories. I reckon that hydrogen is a distraction the motor industry likes to wheel out to pretend they are doing something, when they aren't.

The round trip efficiency of turning electricity into hydrogen and getting that energy back from hydrogen is about 30%. Batteries do this for about 80%.

When USA car companies get the stuffing kicked out of them by Japanese / European cars when oil goes to $140 a barrel, did they roll out hydrogen cars? Nope. GM went back to its EV, improved on it and promised to launch in 2010 - 1 year before the plug-in Prius.

Hydrogen is like cold fusion - its been about 40 years away for the last 40 years.

towel401

capacitors have even higher efficiency and don't wear down from being charged and discharged.

hydrogen is just a load of hype. every couple of years some company says "wow we have invented a hydrogen car", some guy pulls the curtain off it and takes it for a little drive for a press release. then says "its worth 1.6 million and took us years to build, now please go back to buying our petrol cars because we are so advanced"

derry

towel401 wrote: »

capacitors have even higher efficiency and don't wear down from being charged and discharged.

There is still no working examples of these capacitors in cars in service anywhere that I know of. The only thing I saw that made it off the drawing board was a lawn mover with capacitors to power it.


Derry