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Electric cars

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24

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    #32
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    derry wrote: »
    My numbers come from lots of reading on the subject and similar subjects like oil peak or refining or Bio fuels and alternatives

    Basically oil is a moving goal post. A new oil field will spurt out oil with very little energy and the ratio can be maybe 1 barrel of oil energy input to retrieve 10 Barrels. A old oil field might require 5 barrels of oil energy input to extract 10 barrels of oil. So the extraction of oil is a average of the new oil fields and the old oil fields.As oil prices drop some older oil fields stop be extracted as uneconomic and when oil increases in value those fields are reopened to extract oil as it becomes more economic to do so. Refinery energy remains fairly contsant in comparison . Transport remains fairly constant .Oil companies will claim ~10% ratios so as to look better than alternitives or better still not include the oil energy input ratio so that oil starts at 100% and then say alternitives require huge energy inputs copared to oil . ~30% is a good basis and some sites will quote that but it depends on factors weather you include Russia or exclude Texas or north sea whatever. How long is a string.

    Bio fuels are also a moving target .It depends on are you using sugar cane like Brazil where energy inputs are fairly low or include USA which uses corn where energy inputs are higher. I think my latest information came from New Week magazine a few months back or similar that figured that alternatives both Ethanol and Bio diesel were about ~30% energy input to get fuel to the fuel tanks in a car.


    Apples versus oranges stuff.


    Ralf

    So what your saying is that you have no data to back up these numbers?
    thes numbers you are quoting are completely speculative and as the goal post shift so much, as per your words, we cannot take them as being correct.

    Electric cars are the future of motoring, in some shape or form, but till we have a practical electric car that can do everything as good if not better than the internal combustion car, it won't happen..... no matter what you say or numbers you produce, that is the bottom line....


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    #33
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    We are both agreed that in your second statement that
    robtri wrote: »
    Electric cars are the future of motoring, in some shape or form, but till we have a practical electric car that can do everything as good if not better than the internal combustion car, it won't happen..... no matter what you say or numbers you produce, that is the bottom line....



    That leads to I can or you can come up all sorts of data depending which side of the fence you want to argue the case

    That is why I present data without a myriad of sources as which source you want to believe and as it not relevant to the issue to pin down the numbers

    What will happen is when motorists start to prefer to buy electric because of some advantage that is the only number that counts

    Electric car sales in Ireland are so low as to barely exist.The rest of the world is similar


    Derry


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    #34
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    derry wrote: »
    We are both agreed that in your second statement that





    That leads to I can or you can come up all sorts of data depending which side of the fence you want to argue the case

    That is why I present data without a myriad of sources as which source you want to believe and as it not relevant to the issue to pin down the numbers

    What will happen is when motorists start to prefer to buy electric because of some advantage that is the only number that counts

    Electric car sales in Ireland are so low as to barely exist.The rest of the world is similar


    Derry


    Actually you don't present the data fairly, you keep pushing bio fuels...seriously whats the deal... are you involved with bio fuels??


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    #35
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    robtri wrote: »
    Actually you don't present the data fairly, you keep pushing bio fuels...seriously whats the deal... are you involved with bio fuels??

    If switching from normal petrol in my tank for my non flex feul Suziki swift 98 model car to using ethanol E85 and usung that fuel until november 2008 makes me soe investor in bio fuels then thats the extent of my involvement.
    I am sorta biased as real world that what worked for me saved me lots of money from being ripped of with fuel at 1.30 a liter.

    Now The facts are fuel is very dense power source
    !kg of fuel will drive a 35KW engine for 5 minutes . One Kg of Lithuim polymer will drive the same engine for 17 seconds we can say that lithuim is ~7% the power density as Petrol.
    Now the car with the 35Kw engine will be wasing ost of the enegy and maybe we get 15% of the energy back as work done .The eletric car will will be 50% effient with power.So we dont need to runa 35kw motor to equal a that power we need a motor that is about 15% of 35 KW. Even so the pwtrol will be ahead on fuel density rage per KG and way ahead on cost per mile and costs to buy.Lead acid battery like AGM VLSA types are 1% the power density of Petrol so even though much cheaper are very heavy.New methods of charging and using lead lined carbon plates might help to speed up recharging and reduce weight but that future stuff.As ethanol and BIO diesel are similar in power density and with sometimes no mods to car engines or often minor mods to car engines the solution is there in our face rweady to go and could employ a lot of Irish farmers who are on the scratch

    So if all of a sudden I am in with the farers or the bio companies or green brigade well nothing I can do about that as Al I want is cheaper fuel at more stable prices that isnt sending money out from ROI and isnt so detremental to the CO2 emmisions and enviorement. Brazil does it sucefully so if the so called backward countries like there who stick in our face how stupid we are to be beholden to the oil companies , then we should look to see if we can copy what really works has worked for 30 plus years and wont require us to import a load of batteries to run our cars


    Derry


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    #36
    towel401
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭towel401


    I think electric motors are more than 50% efficient.

    also transmission losses in the national grid are slightly less than 10% in most cases


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    #37
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    towel401 wrote: »
    I think electric motors are more than 50% efficient.

    also transmission losses in the national grid are slightly less than 10% in most cases

    I was refering to the global return of the power in versus power out
    100% power in electric motor typicaly 85%

    The losses such as drag from air acceleration brakes fiction friction generaly and then power losses from battery supply to electric engine from heat makes 50% global returns more likely or simply put the 1/2 the power input is wasted .

    Transmission losses from power station to the plug outlet at a house house can vary a lot so 10% is a average

    This means the global return from the car is really 50% of 90% of the power that is supplied to the house and the ~90% (best case )that get into the battery from losses charging battery making ~30% global return from the car after the whole story is inputed.20% is often closer to real world results.so if for example we after electric power staion losses and transmission losses and cheical losses to get battery eant the car started with 40% of the original power then 50% of that would mean 20% global returns
    Still better than a 10% global returns from a internal combustion but any flaws in the electric system such as cheapo low efficient parts and the losses mount quickly

    Hope that clears the story a bit but its not my fault that there are these huge losses in all energy systems

    Derry


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    #38
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    Here's a fairly reasonable looking plug-in hybrid. It's a car from a Chinese battery company. Due to go on sale today (Monday 15th) according to Wikipedia

    100kms per charge
    50% charge in 10 minutes
    10% owned by Warren Buffet
    Price unclear but Wiki links to reports ranging from $15-25K

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3DM

    byd-f3dm-plug-in-001.jpg

    A report and a video from BBC & RTE respectively

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7779261.stm

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1210/6news_av.html?2461425,null,230


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    #39
    thehamo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭thehamo


    saw a new honda on top gear tonight. Works on hydrogen, electric engine, aparantly as good as any petrol family saloon. Dont have to plug it in you just fill up on hydrogen. Only on sale in the states though but looks very promising.


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    #40
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    thehamo wrote: »
    you just fill up on hydrogen.

    Where?


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    #41
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    derry wrote: »
    If switching from normal petrol in my tank for my non flex feul Suziki swift 98 model car to using ethanol E85 and usung that fuel until november 2008 makes me soe investor in bio fuels then thats the extent of my involvement.
    I am sorta biased as real world that what worked for me saved me lots of money from being ripped of with fuel at 1.30 a liter.

    Blah blah blah..

    So if all of a sudden I am in with the farers or the bio companies or green brigade well nothing I can do about that as Al I want is cheaper fuel at more stable prices that isnt sending money out from ROI and isnt so detremental to the CO2 emmisions and enviorement. Brazil does it sucefully so if the so called backward countries like there who stick in our face how stupid we are to be beholden to the oil companies , then we should look to see if we can copy what really works has worked for 30 plus years and wont require us to import a load of batteries to run our cars


    Derry

    I was just asking a simple question, as your promotion of Bio fuels is excessive, and your verbal commentry on the oil companies is also noted...
    you pull these numbers out of the air, no back up no links.....


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    #42
    siralfalot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 447 ✭✭siralfalot


    BendiBus wrote: »
    Where?

    why at the filling station of course :rolleyes:

    its not like when the first petrol cars came out there was a network of petrol stations just waiting for them is it? No, they were built up over time.

    existing petrol stations wil have to adapt to it, just like anyone else will.


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    #43
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    BendiBus wrote: »
    Here's a fairly reasonable looking plug-in hybrid. It's a car from a Chinese battery company. Due to go on sale today (Monday 15th) according to Wikipedia

    100kms per charge
    50% charge in 10 minutes
    10% owned by Warren Buffet
    Price unclear but Wiki links to reports ranging from $15-25K

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_F3DM

    byd-f3dm-plug-in-001.jpg

    A report and a video from BBC & RTE respectively

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7779261.stm

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1210/6news_av.html?2461425,null,230


    Not a bad looking car, on the right track.... but did you read the BBC report
    "BYD's vast new factory did not exist 15 months ago, and they had to level several hills and fill in several lakes to create the site. "

    so they built a car that is slighty more greener than a normal car ( i would love to see the specs on this car to figure how much greener), they destroyed, hills and lakes?????? maybe its just me but does this not seem a little bit WRONG!!!!!!


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    #44
    fishfoodie
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭fishfoodie


    siralfalot wrote: »
    why at the filling station of course :rolleyes:

    its not like when the first petrol cars came out there was a network of petrol stations just waiting for them is it? No, they were built up over time.

    existing petrol stations wil have to adapt to it, just like anyone else will.

    Ever seen a Hydrogen explosion ?

    Hydrogen storage isn't something I'd be comfortable leaving in the hands of any existing Petrol station operator.


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    #45
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,813 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    fishfoodie wrote: »
    Ever seen a Hydrogen explosion ?

    Hydrogen storage isn't something I'd be comfortable leaving in the hands of any existing Petrol station operator.

    Petrol is a tad volatile also. It seems some stations in CA are already stocking hydrogen.

    The Top Gear report made it look like a serious option. They also road-tested the Tesla earlier in the show (it goes great in a straight line, but corners like a dog due to battery weight, and range and recharge times are very poor).

    One valid point they made was that people are used to the idea that you can refuel a car in several minutes. Having to recharge for X no. of hours would require a serious change of mindset, and would be a major step backwards in terms of usability.

    There's also the question of where the electricity to recharge the batteries is coming from (coal and gas mostly in this country). That said, I don't know whats involved in extracting hydrogen - I've heard that current methods are quite heavily polluting...

    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_clarity


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    #46
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    loyatemu wrote: »
    There's also the question of where the electricity to recharge the batteries is coming from (coal and gas mostly in this country). That said, I don't know whats involved in extracting hydrogen - I've heard that current methods are quite heavily polluting...

    http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_clarity


    The most advanced electric car project, Project Better Place, envisages swapping batteries at service stations rather than waiting to recharge.

    Plug-in hybrids can be used to supply the grid as well as charge from it. This allows for better balancing of demad with supply, thereby allowing an increase in the amount of "intermittent" renewable energy on the grid.

    Plug-in electric vehicles and green electricity are complementary.


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    #47
    fishfoodie
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭fishfoodie


    loyatemu wrote: »
    Petrol is a tad volatile also. It seems some stations in CA are already stocking hydrogen.

    The volatility of Hydrogen & Petrol are incomparable. You can drop a lit match on a pool of petrol & the petrol will extinguish the match. If you open the valve on a gas cylinder of hydrogen you instantly get a flame which can only be extinguished by cutting off the fuel supply.

    Hydrogen is also the the smallest molecule, so in other words it will ALWAYS find a way to leak !


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    #48
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    fishfoodie wrote: »
    You can drop a lit match on a pool of petrol & the petrol will extinguish the match.
    I'm willing to bet you've never actually tried that.
    If you open the valve on a gas cylinder of hydrogen you instantly get a flame which can only be extinguished by cutting off the fuel supply.
    I'm pretty confident you haven't tried that either.

    Back to your earlier question: have you ever seen a hydrogen explosion?


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    #49
    fishfoodie
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭fishfoodie


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm willing to bet you've never actually tried that. I'm pretty confident you haven't tried that either.

    Back to your earlier question: have you ever seen a hydrogen explosion?

    You'd lose on first two counts :D

    As to the third I've been fortunate enough not to see a Hydrogen explosion, but I've seen both controlled & uncontrolled Hydrogen fires. I've seen the aftermath of a couple of 'small' hydrogen explosions ( 1-2 m3 of H2 at 1Atd Atmosphere).

    The best demonstration I've seen of what hydrogen can do was a 2 tonne piece of equipment shifted by about 30cm from as much Hydrogen (Actually Silane SiH4) as would fit in 10m of 5mm diameter pipe.

    [edit] for $hite spelling as usual :)


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    #50
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Did anybody see the Tesla car on top gear at the weekend, just watched it last night, Sorry can't link to it as work blocks all videos....
    anyway....
    the Tesla is, as I have said before, a fantastic looking and and a very advanced piece of engineering.... the top gear testing on the track had a lot of good points and a couple of bad ones....
    good points: looks great, it is fast(very),

    Bad points: the claimed 200mile limit was reduced to 55 miles on the lap, charging from a standard 13amp socket takes 16 hours( they did make the pointof where that electricity was generated) and charging from a small windturbine that had set up takes 600 hours.....
    handling wasn't great( personally won't be worried by that one) and reliablity wa an issue with the two cars they had( also wouldn't be overly worried, as that will improve)

    it is very promising for electric cars, but really shows hat there is a long long way to go still yet before they are practical... one point Clarkson made really does hit home, driving from London to Scotland will take 3 days in a Tesla.....

    Now Jame's hydrogen fuel cell car was fantastic, absolutely great and I believe something like that might be the future alright... right on the money, looked like a normal car, drove like a normal car, filled up in same time as a normal car, the only problem for a car point I see is the 200 mile range( but that will probably, get a lot better as this develops)


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    #51
    towel401
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭towel401


    robtri wrote: »
    Did anybody see the Tesla car on top gear at the weekend, just watched it last night, Sorry can't link to it as work blocks all videos....
    anyway....
    the Tesla is, as I have said before, a fantastic looking and and a very advanced piece of engineering.... the top gear testing on the track had a lot of good points and a couple of bad ones....
    good points: looks great, it is fast(very),

    Bad points: the claimed 200mile limit was reduced to 55 miles on the lap, charging from a standard 13amp socket takes 16 hours( they did make the pointof where that electricity was generated) and charging from a small windturbine that had set up takes 600 hours.....
    handling wasn't great( personally won't be worried by that one) and reliablity wa an issue with the two cars they had( also wouldn't be overly worried, as that will improve)

    it is very promising for electric cars, but really shows hat there is a long long way to go still yet before they are practical... one point Clarkson made really does hit home, driving from London to Scotland will take 3 days in a Tesla.....

    Now Jame's hydrogen fuel cell car was fantastic, absolutely great and I believe something like that might be the future alright... right on the money, looked like a normal car, drove like a normal car, filled up in same time as a normal car, the only problem for a car point I see is the 200 mile range( but that will probably, get a lot better as this develops)

    but he forgot to mention that the clarity is actually a piece of crap


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    #52
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    towel401 wrote: »
    but he forgot to mention that the clarity is actually a piece of crap

    why you say that?? whats so crap about it??


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    #53
    towel401
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭towel401


    robtri wrote: »
    why you say that?? whats so crap about it??

    the fuel cell itself doesn't last very long. a few hundred hours maybe. this is worse than lithium ion batteries which it also uses as a buffer. so after a while you will need a new battery and a new fuel cell.

    nobody sells hydrogen and to make things worse there are different incompatible filling methods. BMW have their own proprietary filling system that will only fill hydrogen BMW's. so even if you find a place that sells hydrogen then maybe you still can't fill up.

    so its basically worse than the tesla and much worse than the lightning gt which they havn't tested yet.


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    #54
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    towel401 wrote: »
    the fuel cell itself doesn't last very long. a few hundred hours maybe. this is worse than lithium ion batteries which it also uses as a buffer. so after a while you will need a new battery and a new fuel cell.

    nobody sells hydrogen and to make things worse there are different incompatible filling methods. BMW have their own proprietary filling system that will only fill hydrogen BMW's. so even if you find a place that sells hydrogen then maybe you still can't fill up.

    so its basically worse than the tesla and much worse than the lightning gt which they havn't tested yet.


    haven't been able to get exact figures on the Honda fuel cell stack, but in general terms the automotive fuels cells are good for 5000 hours or equivalant of 150,000 miles.... so I would say that as good as any internal combustion car....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

    NOBODY sells hydrogen??????? where you get that from.... it is possible to Buy Hydrogen at the pump in California in certain area's.... i.e where the car is being released???? if you seen top gear you would have seen james may filling up at a normal petrol station in the same time it take to fill a normal petrol/diesel car....

    So overall, I would say this car is so so much better than the electric cars as it is practical......


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    #55
    awhite07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭awhite07


    I drive a hummer and I am proud


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    #56
    fishfoodie
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭fishfoodie


    robtri wrote: »
    haven't been able to get exact figures on the Honda fuel cell stack, but in general terms the automotive fuels cells are good for 5000 hours or equivalant of 150,000 miles.... so I would say that as good as any internal combustion car....
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

    NOBODY sells hydrogen??????? where you get that from.... it is possible to Buy Hydrogen at the pump in California in certain area's.... i.e where the car is being released???? if you seen top gear you would have seen james may filling up at a normal petrol station in the same time it take to fill a normal petrol/diesel car....

    So overall, I would say this car is so so much better than the electric cars as it is practical......

    What exactly is the range of these things ?

    Cause according to the California Fuel Cell Partnership, there are a grand total of 26 active refueling stations in the State. The only problem is that California is almost 424,000 km2 :eek:


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    #57
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    robtri wrote: »
    one point Clarkson made really does hit home, driving from London to Scotland will take 3 days in a Tesla

    But at least a Tesla would make it. How long would it take in a hydrogen car? Assuming a hydrogen refuelling truck isn't following behind.

    Hydrogen I'm sure has a future in motive power. But not an imminent one.


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    #58
    derry
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭derry


    robtri wrote: »

    ....snip....

    So overall, I would say this car is so so much better than the electric cars as it is practical......


    Nothing could be further from the truth .All evidence is we are a long long way from having hydrogen as a way to fuel and drive cars.The problems of getting cheap robust and reliable fuel cells is still a big block and the few test cars out there with fuel cells are astronomicly expensive.The problem to store fuel aboard the car in fuel tanks is still a big issue and so ranges are still low for a fairly large tank. Also the cost to make hydrogen fuel and what feed stock or methods to use is no small issue to solve

    Here are some links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=yXY8z3ZEog0C&dq=hydrogen&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0

    Yes in ~2070 we might see hydrogen cars but its unlikly to be anytime soon

    Derry


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    #59
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    Meanwhile, an actual real working plug-in hybrid is now on sale in China for 150,000 yuan - less than €16,000

    It's real world performance and reliability (it's Chinese remember and they have yet to develop a reputation for reliability in anything) is still to be tested but it's real, it needs no major infrastructural changes and it can be a major contributor to a move towards more renewable electricity generation.

    http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/guest/22465/


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    #60
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    derry wrote: »
    Nothing could be further from the truth .All evidence is we are a long long way from having hydrogen as a way to fuel and drive cars.The problems of getting cheap robust and reliable fuel cells is still a big block and the few test cars out there with fuel cells are astronomicly expensive.The problem to store fuel aboard the car in fuel tanks is still a big issue and so ranges are still low for a fairly large tank. Also the cost to make hydrogen fuel and what feed stock or methods to use is no small issue to solve

    Here are some links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=yXY8z3ZEog0C&dq=hydrogen&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0

    Yes in ~2070 we might see hydrogen cars but its unlikly to be anytime soon

    Derry


    Actually it is a reality, so the time is now already, but I do take it on board it could be along while before we see it everywhere....
    but it is getting there, slowly....
    The distribution of hydrogen for the purpose of transportation is currently being tested around the world, particularly in Portugal, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, California, Japan and Canada

    BendiBus wrote: »
    Meanwhile, an actual real working plug-in hybrid is now on sale in China for 150,000 yuan - less than €16,000

    It's real world performance and reliability (it's Chinese remember and they have yet to develop a reputation for reliability in anything) is still to be tested but it's real, it needs no major infrastructural changes and it can be a major contributor to a move towards more renewable electricity generation.

    http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/guest/22465/

    Don't get me wrong, I think this is a fantastic achievement, a good car, still haven't seen the specs and waiting to see how it gets on passing all the safety and other regulations in the US and Europe...
    my only concern at the moment is where china get the electricity for the car,

    http://www.energybulletin.net/node/1252

    not a very green car semingly....


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    #61
    BendiBus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    In Detroit, plans for electric cars are going into reverse along with the rest of the US auto industry

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7788954.stm
    GM has suspended major work on its $370m engine factory in Michigan, where it plans to build a new small car engine which is key to its efforts to reinvent itself as a maker of fuel-efficient and all-electric cars.

    While in Ireland as part of Building Irelands Smart Economy:
    We will work towards our target of 10% of Ireland’s road transport fleet being electrically powered by 2020

    http://193.178.1.117/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Building%20Ireland%E2%80%99s%20Smart%20Economy.pdf

    As with all political documents the usual warnings apply :pac:


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