Spinning vs Mashing

MCOS

Hi Guys,

I've hear these two terms and would like your thoughts. I understand spinning is faster cadence on a lower gear and mashing the opposite? However when is it essential to do either of these? How do you manage your gears when you are on a 3 hour spin that includes drafting and climbing?

TinyExplosions

Your definitions are right, but it's never really 'necessary' to do one over the other -some people are naturally spinners (like Blorg), and some are mashers (that'd be me!)... it's all down to what's comfortable for you -though spinning is said to be more efficient, and I'm working on building my cadence up over this winter

Chips Lovell

The theory is that spinning in a higher cadence puts more emphasis on your cardiovascular system rather than your leg muscles. Done right, you rely on your aerobic fitness and it takes longer for your muscles to burn out.

I found this piece pretty interesting on the topic recently, which stresses it isn't simply a case of high cadence good/low cadence bad, but rather finding the optimal combo to suit your physical makeup.

I don't think there's a particular occassion to do one or the other on a normal spin, rather a case of finding the right cadence for you and sticking to it. My cadence would slow when drafting or on particularly steep gradients, but otherwise its fairly consistant.

Sometimes I'd do an entire spin in the small ring just get a good cardiovascular workout, other times I'd spend a lot of time humping up hills for strength work. I'm by no means a training guru though, so I'd try and read up a bit.

blorg

I'm also no expert but I do think it's a good idea to be able to do both. Riding a fixie up the mountains will sort this out for you. You get comfortable both with powering up climbs in a high gear at a low RPM (mashing) and spinning down them at very high cadences in a low gear (for the circumstances, obviously it is the same gear)

To a large extent your options on climbs will be dictated by the gearing you have; you are unlikely to be able to maintain over 100RPM up steep gradients if you run a standard double and your lowest gear is 39-23 for example. (Presuming you are not a pro.)

Raam

Mashing will give you big ugly calf muscles :pac:

rubadub

I heard long distance guys also do spinning to save wear on the knees/joints.

Mashing will give you big ugly calf muscles

That is a point though, mashing is more suited to strong guys. So I would presume short distance pro cyclists would be a lot more muscular, just like sprinters (running) are more muscular than a marathon runner.

Lumen

rubadub wrote: »

That is a point though, mashing is more suited to strong guys.

It depends what you mean by "strong". As I understand it, fast twitch (or more specifically Type IIb) muscle fibres are no good on a bike, except for sprinting or short hills, because they can't operate aerobically. So someone with a heavy build will probably be carrying lots of useless muscle, which won't work at low or high cadence.

Type IIa fibres (also "fast") are still fatter than the Type 1 (slow twitch) muscles, but can operate both aerobically and anaerobically. This may apply to someone with "big legs" who can cycle fast over long distance.

An alternative definition of "strong" is just someone who can produce lots of power, but can't sustain it due to relatively inadequate cardiovascular capacity. Such a person will benefit from lower cadence, because they can produce the torque, and because it's more efficient.

I think Lance spins/span so fast because he has spare aerobic capacity (for whatever reason) so can afford the inefficiency.

End ramble.

FWIW, I can't produce much torque because (a) I'm crap, and (b) I'm skinny. So I usually ride at 90-100rpm.

MCOS

el tonto wrote: »

I found this piece pretty interesting on the topic recently, which stresses it isn't simply a case of high cadence good/low cadence bad, but rather finding the optimal combo to suit your physical makeup.

.

This was interesting. So my next question is what is your optimal combo for your own wieght/strenth/CV fitness?

About 90 mins into a group spin last weekend a guy from the cycling club looked at me and said "I see you are on the big gear already". I didn't get it until I realised I was at a lower cadence from everyone else and had been for the spin.

Chips Lovell

MCOS wrote: »

This was interesting. So my next question is what is your optimal combo for your own wieght/strenth/CV fitness?

About 90 mins into a group spin last weekend a guy from the cycling club looked at me and said "I see you are on the big gear already". I didn't get it until I realised I was at a lower cadence from everyone else and had been for the spin.

100rpm works for me, but everyone is different.

A lot of guys in cycling clubs will just ride in the small ring for the winter, so maybe that's what he was referring to.

Raam

MCOS wrote: »

This was interesting. So my next question is what is your optimal combo for your own wieght/strenth/CV fitness?

About 90 mins into a group spin last weekend a guy from the cycling club looked at me and said "I see you are on the big gear already". I didn't get it until I realised I was at a lower cadence from everyone else and had been for the spin.

I'm 6'3", 68kg and I hang around the mid 90s

Gavin

Raam wrote: »

I'm 6'3", 68kg and I hang around the mid 90s

Sure whatever floats your boat I guess. Those old age pensioners have experience. Might do better on the personals though

Raam

Verb wrote: »

Sure whatever floats your boat I guess. Those old age pensioners have experience. Might do better on the personals though

Hey, it's easy pickings with that bunch

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

I'm 6'3", 68kg

Jesus that's light. Have you got a full complement of limbs?

I thought I was skinny at 72kg and 6'.

Wife: you're too skinny.
Me: I was this weight when we met.
Wife: yeah, but you had muscles then.

MCOS

Raam wrote: »

I'm 6'3", 68kg and I hang around the mid 90s

:eek: Do you eat?! Thats soo light for someone your height!


As for the cycling club guys spinning on low rings... yeah they did until they had about 20k to go and then they put on the afterburners

Raam

Just naturally skinny, always been that way.

Chips Lovell

And we wonder why Raam is so good at climbing...

Raam

If I turn sideways, I'm invisible :pac:

DirkVoodoo

Raam: Kate Moss of the cycling world.

Maybe we could start calling you "Mossy"?

Or "Kate"?

Diarmuid

rubadub wrote: »

I heard long distance guys also do spinning to save wear on the knees/joints.

I think this is true. You put a lot more pressure on you knee joints pushing a big load.

I'm 6'3", 68kg and I hang around the mid 90s

fookin hell. You must bomb up hills.

Raam

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Raam: Kate Moss of the cycling world.

Maybe we could start calling you "Mossy"?

Or "Kate"?

EL_TONTO WEARS OVERSHOES IN THE SUMMER TO KEEP HIS SHOES CLEAN!!!!!

Phew, changed the subject nicely there.

MCOS

Yeah, sound like Raam should 'mash' some potatoes and get them into him:D

Ok, If a lower cadence is more efficient, why do cyclists spin their way through winter. Is this not the time to get some resistance training on the legs in the gym and build strength endurance with low cadence climbs so that you produce more watts for your mid 90s, 100 rpm etc...?

Lumen

MCOS wrote: »

Ok, If a lower cadence is more efficient, why do cyclists spin their way through winter.

Because you should train like you race, according to the article posted earlier in the thread.

Raam

OK, just my nose is visible then

Chips Lovell

MCOS wrote: »

Ok, If a lower cadence is more efficient, why do cyclists spin their way through winter. Is this not the time to get some resistance training on the legs in the gym and build strength endurance with low cadence climbs so that you produce more watts for your mid 90s, 100 rpm etc...?

I read a piece recently, I think it was on Pez, which argued that a lot of the winter training practices are a bit outdated. The guy was saying that the winter was absolutely the time for mashing up hills and building strength, since you don't have to worry about recovering in time for races.

Chips Lovell

Here it is.

blorg

Diarmuid wrote: »

fookin hell. You must bomb up hills.

This would be an accurate diagnosis

@Tonto- 100 RPM is quite a high cadence I would have thought.

'68 Fastback

Chr!st, I'm 5'8 and 75kg! Time to get a gastric band! I always thought Raam was a polar bear.

Raam

'68 wrote:

Chr!st, I'm 5'8 and 75kg! Time to get a gastric band! I always thought Raam was a polar bear.

Who ate all the pies, who ate all the pies?

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

@Tonto- 100 RPM is quite a high cadence I would have thought.

That would be when I'm going at normal pace. At the end of a spin, my average usually reads around 80, which is probably accounted for by coasting, drafting, stopping at lights and the odd bit of hard climbing.

'68 Fastback

Raam wrote: »

Who ate all the pies, who ate all the pies?

mmmmmmm...pies

niceonetom

el tonto wrote: »

Here it is.

Myth #1: Riding a fixed gear improves pedaling efficiency and leg speed.

dammit...

Raam

niceonetom wrote: »

dammit...

It improves style though?

blorg

My personal experience is that since I got a fixie (1) my average cadence has gone up; (2) peak cadence has gone up; (3) I am also able to power up hills in a difficult gear; (4) I find it easier to "pedal in circles" through the entire pedal stroke.

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

My personal experience is that since I got a fixie (1) my average cadence has gone up; (2) I am also able to power up hills in a difficult gear; (3) I find it easier to "pedal in circles" through the entire pedal stroke.

good enough for me. blorg > Josh Horowitz.

it does improve style too. not as much as my silk cravat tough.

rogerb

el tonto wrote: »

I found this piece pretty interesting

el tonto wrote: »

Here it is.

Both very interesting articles, thank you. I particularly like the term "ventilatory distress". Reading debunking articles about training is so satisfying. I feel better already just thinking about all the effort I'm not wasting and the ventilatory distress I'm avoiding.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

Here it is.

So are PowerCranks on a singlespeed the ultimate training tool?

Or just a really unpleasant and confusing way to spend the winter?

MCOS

Raam wrote: »

Who ate all the pies, who ate all the pies?

I did! 5'11' 83kg

Raam

MCOS wrote: »

I did! 5'11' 83kg

I think there was a guy on here who was 6' and weighed less than 60kg. A Cork or Kerry chap. I can't remember his name though.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

So are PowerCranks on a singlespeed the ultimate training tool?

Or just a really unpleasant and confusing way to spend the winter?

Ah, Pez are always pushing the PowerCranks. I've yet to be convinced though.

Chips Lovell

6ft3 and 100kg. I'm the anti-Raam. I'll eat your young if you're not careful.

Vélo

I'm 5' 7" and weigh just under 9 stone and MCOS ate all my pies!!!

'68 Fastback

el tonto wrote: »

6ft3 and 100kg. I'm the anti-Raam. I'll eat your young if you're not careful.

Now my work mates are looking at me funny for laughing at the computer.

Raam

If the wimmin could see us now, all talking about our weight.

Vélo

So what's best for shaving your legs?:eek:

'68 Fastback

Raam wrote: »

If the wimmin could see us now, all talking about our weight.

Very important topic when some look pedal axles are only for sub 95k riders;)

Chips Lovell

Obsessing about your weight, sharing leg shaving tips and fretting about matching your bar tape to your saddle. What's more manly than that?

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

Obsessing about your weight, sharing leg shaving tips and fretting about matching your bar tape to your saddle. What's more manly than that?

On that note, is it acceptable to have black bar tape with a white saddle?

Chips Lovell

Raam wrote: »

On that note, is it acceptable to have black bar tape with a white saddle?

Of course it is.... in Club Fred.

Vélo

Just tell everyone you're a Newcastle United fan.

MCOS

Lumen wrote: »

Because you should train like you race, according to the article posted earlier in the thread.

Really? All year round? Do you not believe that winter can be used to work on the reasons you don't win races/places? If you work on increased wattage at low cadence would this not translate into higher wattage for your preferred race cadence? If you can hold a certain wattage at 95rpm for 2 hours, sustained training would mean you good could hold that wattage more efficiently. What would increased strength give you for the same session?

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

Of course it is.... in Club Fred.

Fiddlesticks.