Lack of 'Real Ale' in Irish Pubs

LordSutch

Just came back from a weekend in Belfast where Real Ale is readily available 'On Tap' in many pubs, Abbott Ale, Spitfire, Bombardier, Speckled Hen, etc, etc, all available from time to time, but whats the story here (re lack of Real Ale's) in the Republic?

This lack of Ale also applies to the bottled variety, recently I was introduced to 'Bombardier' Beer in England (not available here) & more recently 'Neil Morrissey's Blonde Ale' (not available here either) although both are readily available in Tesco stores throughout the UK (including Belfast).

I really cant understand the lack of Ale's here in Ireland, considering their historic popularity next door, surely there must be a market for 'On Tap' & Bottled Ale's here in Ireland ....... ?

Anyone any ideas.

kenmc

It's all Diageos fault.
Brainwashing by the media into accepting bland, flavourless 'beer'.

c - 13

I'd drink ale if it was available but unfortunately you'd be hard pushed to find it. You might have some luck in places that have an excellent beer selection such as BierHaus but even then chances are high that it would be bottled.

Its just there's no demand. The general Irish population are content to drink the standard fare thrown at them by Diageo and all sorts of brightly coloured sugar filled bottled drinks. Couple that with the fact that an awful lot of people here dont care what they are drinking tastes like and only drink to get hammered drunk and you have no competition and no need to introduce any other type/brands.

Its sad really. Luckily there are a few off licenses that are really expanding their selections in the recent years.

_blank_

kenmc wrote: »

It's all Diageos fault.
Brainwashing by the media into accepting bland, flavourless 'beer'.

This isn't correct.

I never see any of these other brands advertised on "British" tv channels.

Actually.

Only very recently London Pride has been seen on the side-hoardings ay England games.

oblivious

As far a I see it the are two main problems, publicans not will or interest in pushing their range (unless there is an international brewing company doing heavy promotions), getting educated about what they sell and try to expand their range. An the second the public's inertia to change what they drink and a some what jingoistic approach to ale's

Bombardier is available as for Morrissey's fox Blonde Ale that's no real loss and probably not a healthy idea for micro's in general

spadder

I had three bottles of "London pride" at the weekend- lovely stuff, is it rebranded as anything else?

_blank_

spadder wrote: »

is it rebranded as anything else?

It can be bought as London Pride in most good Off Licences, and Tesco.

LordSutch

Its the lack of 'On Tap' beers in Pubs that really irks me, I do realise that some beers are slowly making an appearance on the Irish scene, in drips & drabs (bottled) but not on Tap!

I had heard that "Morrissey's fox Blonde Ale" was a nice Golden brew but I will have to wait for me next UK trip to check it out, and as for "Bombardier" did somebody say that its actually available" here in Ireland ?

oblivious

Camelot wrote: »

and as for "Bombardier" did somebody say that its actually available" (bottled) here in Ireland ?

Its doing the rounds in a few off licences

oblivious

Camelot wrote: »

Its the lack of 'On Tap' beers in Pubs that really irks me, ?

Is that cask or keg?

Fratton Fred

The Spar in Dalkey usually has a good selection of ales, I have bought Hobgoblin (Tins and bottles), Directors, Spitfire, Badger (Or it might have been tabglefoot, can't remember) and Newcastle brown from there, they also had a few Scottish ones as well. I think they sell John Smiths bitter in cans as well.

Usually a good selection of German ales in there too.

as much as i love guinness, I do miss a hand drawn pint.

BeerNut

kenmc wrote: »

It's all Diageos fault.

It's Guinness's fault really: they were the ones who destroyed competition in the Irish market and then used their dominance to reduce the variety and quality of their own products. They had the drinkers and the publicans working for their interests long before the merger with Grand Met happened.

The reason it's so difficult to roll back these changes, as they did to a certain extent in the UK, is down to a number of factors, the biggest of which is the barriers to entry into the licensed trade. With a closed market and the exorbitant cost of a licence, pubs have very tight margins. The chances of them re-introducing the cellaring costs and the inevitable wastage associated with cask beer are virtually non-existent. Likewise the possibility of stocking things which might not sell.

The big breweries' continued grip on the public consciousness through marketing and sponsorship is another part of the problem, as you say. We all know people who insist that Guinness is the world's best stout, despite being aware of virtually no other ones.

But that's not to say we can't change things and introduce more choice and better beer to Ireland. Step one is to drink only the beer you want to drink, and not the ones the advertisers are cramming down your throat. Step two is to ask your local beer supplier -- pub and off licence -- to stock the products you want. There are dozens of UK bottled beers available from Irish distributors, and there are several independent Irish breweries making draught beer for pubs. Ask for it, and if it's not in stock, ask why not.

Publicans will happily tell you "there's no demand for anything like that". Show them they're wrong.

Nothingcompares

This feels like QI Am I about t commit a huge faux-pas and ask why no one has mentioned Smithwicks? Is it not a real ale in your opinion? Also Bass.

BeerNut

Heh heh. The term "Real Ale" is used by CAMRA to refer to beer which is unfiltered, unpasteurised, conditioned by yeast still living in the container (cask or bottle) and served without an external gas supply. Smithwicks is the complete opposite of all these things. It's even briefly lagered, I understand, to make it even blander. Same goes for Bass, Kilkenny, John Smith's Extra Smooth, and Caffrey's.

oblivious

Also make the majority of bottle beer such as fullers, Shephard Neame and such aren't real ale either

LordSutch

oblivious wrote: »

Is that cask or keg?

The lack of 'Cask beers' is what we are talking about .............

Blisterman

As far as I'm aware the only hand pumped ale available in Dublin is Porterhouse TSB.
Nice stuff, but the variety of different ales over here is what I love. There are literally hundreds available in London alone.

BeerNut

Though cask conditioning isn't the be-all and end-all of beer.

Right now in Dublin you can get all of these ales either on draught, bottled, or both:

Porterhouse Alt
Belfast Ale
Blarney Blonde
Brainblásta
Clotworthy Dobbin
Galway Hooker
Porterhouse Hop Head
O'Hara's Red
Porterhouse Red
Rebel Red
Rusty

All Irish, all additive-free, and all worth drinking. If you'd like a bigger selection you need to start drinking these, or the stouts, lagers and wheat beers from the same breweries.

enda1

Yeah I found Abbots ale the nicest when I lived over in England for a while. Wouldn't be the biggest fan of Bombardier now though...

LordSutch

Blisterman wrote: »

As far as I'm aware the only hand pumped ale available in Dublin is Porterhouse TSB.
Nice stuff, but the variety of different ales over here is what I love. There are literally hundreds available in London alone.

Yes Blisterman, thats exactly what I mean, hundreds available in London 'Greater London Area' and just (One Cask Ale) Porterhouse TSB available 'ON TAP' = Hand Pumped here in Dublin which I find surprising :cool:

Apparently the JD Wetherspoon Chain of Pubs 'were' going to enter the Irish market a couple of years ago (along with their Ales), but the deal fell through .......

ednwireland

dont forget most pubs in the uk - dont know about the north have cellars and you need that constant temprature for cask ale also cask is delivered left to sit for a couple of days and really has to be finished within 3 days, thats why irish pubs took to keg so readily dont need a cellar, longer shelf life, chillers so you dont need a constant temp cool room to keep it in. mind you cask is getting rarer in england now for the same reasons. looking forward to some when i'm over at christmas though.

apparently the weatherspoons deal fell through because guiness refused to supply them and they thought that m ight limit their trade a bit !

oblivious

More recently the was also talk of Whitbread buy up some hotel and introducing a Castro pub but I supose with the downturn around the world this probably wont happen

BeerNut

Camelot wrote: »

the deal fell through .......

I doubt there was any deal. They would have looked at the cost of buying licences and property, and the hostile reception they could expect from the VFI, LVA and their servants in Leinster House, and decided it wasn't worth the effort.

Even if they had opened here, they'd have been unlikely to offer the same variety of beers: the customs situation would have been painfully awkward, for a product with no proven demand in Ireland. One only has to compare the bottled beer selection in an Irish branch of M&S or Tesco to its UK counterpart to see that UK firms have next-to-no interest in trying to improve the selection of beers on the Irish market.

r3nu4l

I don't think there is a lack of demand in Ireland, I just think that people will go to the pub and just 'settle' for what's on tap.

I know when I'm home I'll go to the pub and have Guinness because there's nothing else I want available. Many pubs in the UK will have at least one 'guest ale' on tap, even if the rest of the beers are as bland as sparkling water. I don't see why the Irish market can't do the same! They might be surprised!

For the record, the Greene King brewery in Bury St Edmunds produce many good real ales and yet are often accused (usually by CAMRA) of killing the real ale industry because they own huge numbers of pubs and normally only sell their own beers.

Greene King also produce many ales that aren't 'Real ale' (CAMRA definition) but still taste good! While there are lots of real ales in the UK, the choice and breadth of variety is diminishing, nowhere near to the extent of Ireland but diminished nontheless.

Also, real ale in Ireland has taken off over the past 10 years but really needs better marketing if it is to capture the imagination of the people.

Wychwood (makers of Hobgoblin) ran a great campaign in UK National magazines with the tagline "What's the matter Lager boy? Afraid you might taste something?" Sales went through the roof!

The campaign wasn't liked by a lot of people but it worked! The BeerNut himself has said:

BeerNut wrote:

Well the sub-Tolkein imagery is part of the whole Wychwood brand. I have to say I quite like it as part of the general way English beer doesn't take itself too seriously, and I don't think it quite devolves into twattiness.

I also like their provocative slogan. For those of us who live in a world of pubs selling only tasteless beer, there frankly aren't enough of these sorts of challenges. Marketing beer on how it tastes is pretty much unheard of round these parts.

Besides which, they're not marketing all real ale, just their own cartoon brands.

Of course, Marstons now own Wychwood, so we'll see how Hobgoblin develops in the future...


Anyhoo, back on topic: There's loads of off-licenses in Ireland selling a good selection of decent ales, you just have to look a bit harder for them

BeerNut

r3nu4l wrote: »

I know when I'm home I'll go to the pub and have Guinness because there's nothing else I want available.

And if you keep validating Diageo and its retailers in this way, there never will be.

Concerned drinkers need to boycott the pubs and breweries that don't sell the beers they want or things will never get better.

If you have to drink Guinness, ensure the barman knows you're doing it under protest and for fork's sake don't order a second pint.

LordSutch

Just been down the 'Porterhouse' on Bray seafront - NO Cask Ales at al . . .

Real Ales (choice of three) served in Temple Bar only.

BeerNut

Camelot wrote: »

Just been down the 'Porterhouse' on Bray seafront - NO Cask Ales at al . . .

Real Ales (choice of three) served in Temple Bar only.

No cask ales and no clue about their range, by the sounds of things :rolleyes:

Unless there's been a sudden and drastic change of policy, only one cask ale -- TSB -- is served at any Irish Porterhouse branch, and they have it at Nassau Street as well as Glasnevin. (Red and Brainblásta, while tasty, are keg beer and therefore don't count as "real" under CAMRA rules.)

However, the management were telling me a while ago that they were on the verge of pulling TSB from Glasnevin because they went a whole week without selling a single pint of it. It hadn't happened the last time I was in, but they're not going to keep any beer on tap anywhere if no-one's drinking it.

trailerparkboy

Im a guinness or beamish drinker here in Ireland, but when i lived in Alaska and canada i used to love ales, they had some of the best in the world, in alaska they had aslankan e.s.b it was fantastic also had others which i cant remember at the moment. In canada they have a lovely ale called Rickards red its available nationwide and that was all i drank over there. Now all i have to drink here is stout, and im getting sick of it, but as previous posters have said here just aint any real ales available here, i dont particalary like the english ales i have tried for some strange reason but ive onlt tried one or two of em.

KTRIC

I'd kill for a couple of pints of McArdles right now. I really miss it.

fatboypee

I'm lucky enough to live in the only place (I know) to sell Rusty outside Dublin (and alot of other real ale in bottles). Its the only real-ale style cask beer sold on tap that I find remotely reminiscent of real ale.

A good few of my friends who never tried real ale now say "I love bottled beers, I can't stand real ale on tap", by which they mean, they're tried Rusty & Galway Hooker, but then discovered HobGoblin, Hens Tooth etc etc and have come to the decision that clearly cask ale is not as good as bottled !! Oh what they're missing !!!!

I'm disappointed that JD Wetherspoons have not yet set up shop here. I think Diageo / the drinks / vintners industry have, and will for as long as they can, oppose the wholesale introduction of UK ale culture here, for a miriad of reasons, particularly, the steady decline of the Guinness brand among young people (look at all the brews they tried recently, how many do you see now ?), they have nothing to offer to progress the brand so choose to close down the market over permitting diversity (my opinion anyway).

so, til more enterprising publicans switch to selling good ale, or JD's change their minds, I pray that Ryanair do not stop the cheaper flights to the UK too soon .....:o


BTW, each to their taste, but if you see them, give Brakspears ales a try in bottles (Triple is my favourite), don't drink them 'too' cold and you'll get a near cask ale flavour from a bottle....

FBP

oblivious

KTRIC wrote: »

I'd kill for a couple of pints of McArdles right now. I really miss it.

But that is not real ale?

LordSutch

London Pride, Abbott Ale, Spitfire, Old Thumper, Bombardier, Reverend James, Bishops Finger, Bishops Tipple, Widows peg, Youngs Premium, Old Speckled Hen, Bulldog, Adnams, Marstons, Hogs back, Hobgoblin, Badger, Directors, Tanglefoot, Ruddles, Green King IPA, TEA, Golden Glory, Betty Stoggs, Cornish Knocker, Holy Grail, Old leg Over, Wonkey Donkey, Old Hooky, These are Real Ale's and the list goes on & on ....

Oh for a freshly drawn Pint of any of the above in Ireland, or even just in Dublin.

Simon201

Nearest I've found in Dublin recently is the bottles of Shepherd Neame available in some off licences and cafes - mmmm..... pretty pretty good!
We used to drive for miles with the CAMRA guide to find a good pint of Greene King Abbott ale when I lived in Cambridgeshire in the 80's! Funny how there are 'Irish Pubs' in every city in the world but Dublin doesn't have anything like an 'English' style pub serving real ale... groan!

jdivision

BeerNut wrote: »

I doubt there was any deal. They would have looked at the cost of buying licences and property.

They bought a building on Capel Street to open it, decided against it (rumour mill at the time said Diageo refused to supply them) and then sold the building at a heavy loss. A licence costs about E130k, it's not that much albeit it'd be a lot better if those cafe style premises had been introduced.

fatboypee

I would 'hope' it wasn't just because diageo refused to supply them as Tara's speciality beer house (my local) does extremely well and Guinness supply them too, even tho they sell alot of 'foreign' beers....

FBP..

BeerNut

jdivision wrote: »

They bought a building on Capel Street to open it, decided against it (rumour mill at the time said Diageo refused to supply them) and then sold the building at a heavy loss. A licence costs about E130k, it's not that much albeit it'd be a lot better if those cafe style premises had been introduced.

Last I heard it was closer to €180k, but I take your point and that's very interesting to know. It does seem weird that Diageo would have the power to scupper them. It suggests strongly that JDW never had any intention of selling the sort of beers they sell in the UK, but just Guinness, Bud, Carlsberg and the other kegged stuff that Irish drinkers enjoy.

The café-bar licence scheme was definitely a major step towards better variety in the Irish on-trade beer market as it would have made licence-holders much less risk-averse. That the publicans saw it off quickly behind the scenes shows that they have very little interest in giving the drinkers what they want. And every pint of Diageo or Heineken beer sold further enforces their anti-choice agenda.

fatboypee wrote:

I would 'hope' it wasn't just because diageo refused to supply them as Tara's speciality beer house (my local) does extremely well and Guinness supply them too, even tho they sell alot of 'foreign' beers....

I know another pub with a good beer selection which has an uneasy relationship with Diageo, but the big boys keep supplying them. I don't think they can afford to be fussy these days.

rubadub

BeerNut wrote: »

Concerned drinkers need to boycott the pubs and breweries that don't sell the beers they want or things will never get better.

If you have to drink Guinness, ensure the barman knows you're doing it under protest

And ask in the pub for a bottle of pint of whatever you wish they did sell, and act surprised when they say they don't have it, then ask for another and another, and eventually sigh and go "ah well, I suppose I will have to have a whatever slop they have"

Obviously would have more effect on the owner or head barman if you can find them. People have to show there is an interest in these beers, and publicans might then realise there is money to be made too. Better still you could walk out when they say they don't have what you want, would work well these days of half empty pubs, go in with a gang of thirsty looking lads who are going to spend a potential fortune and then leave!

fatboypee

BeerNut wrote: »

Last I heard it was closer to €180k, but I take your point and that's very interesting to know. It does seem weird that Diageo would have the power to scupper them. It suggests strongly that JDW never had any intention of selling the sort of beers they sell in the UK, but just Guinness, Bud, Carlsberg and the other kegged stuff that Irish drinkers enjoy.

The café-bar licence scheme was definitely a major step towards better variety in the Irish on-trade beer market as it would have made licence-holders much less risk-averse. That the publicans saw it off quickly behind the scenes shows that they have very little interest in giving the drinkers what they want. And every pint of Diageo or Heineken beer sold further enforces their anti-choice agenda.

I know another pub with a good beer selection which has an uneasy relationship with Diageo, but the big boys keep supplying them. I don't think they can afford to be fussy these days.

I reckon its getting close to enough demand for places to sell other beers that they don't need to rely on Guinness..


imagine, a JD style place (as it used to be, with its own set of craft beers)...
here...

FBP

dreenman

It would be great to get draught real ale - there must be some sort of demand for a wider choice of decent beer. The great Irish Beer Festival in Galway was successfull enough for them to plan another next year - although there was too much continental beer for my taste.

Over here in Galway I remember a few years ago Tigh Neachtain's used to have Biddy Early and D'arcey's on draught. I'm not sure when they stopped but I think it was more to do with the breweries not supplying draught anymore.

Is the problem with draught ale is that its too expensive to bring over from the UK and there are not enough real ale breweries in Ireland?

In the UK there is a reduced duty tax on beer from breweries less than a certain size maybe something like that over here would help in kickstarting a small/regional brewery industry?

r3nu4l

BeerNut wrote: »

And if you keep validating Diageo and its retailers in this way, there never will be.

Concerned drinkers need to boycott the pubs and breweries that don't sell the beers they want or things will never get better.

If you have to drink Guinness, ensure the barman knows you're doing it under protest and for fork's sake don't order a second pint.

1. I always ask if they have real ales (even when I know they don't )
2. I then instigate a chat saying how real ales are my preference and they should look into getting it
3. I then buy a Guinness
4. I drink with my mates, encouraging them to come back to mine for some bottled reall ales.


This has worked on a few occasions but when the lads refuse to leave, I stay and drink the Guinness. I don't get home to Ireland that often and when I do I mostly see family and in-laws, not my mates, so when I do see my mates, I'm forked if I'm going to boycott a pub if they want to stay there

noby

There is a 50% duty rate for microbreweries here, which helps but wouldn't necessarily kickstart the industry. Customers choosing, or looking for, local beers might help a little.

One of the big problems with bringing over casks, or even sourcing local casks, is that you need a cellarman that knows what they are doing. 99% of Irish publicans wouldn't know how to handle a cask. There are a few good guys out there, and the tide might ever-so-slowly turn.
For now there is, as already mentioned, the Porterhouse, Tara's, Franciscan Well (seasonal, I think) and Tigh Bric (sp) in Kerry. One or two others are looking at dipping their toe in the water.
Anyone who likes cask ales, and likes to support the Irish microbreweries should try to get to the Easterfest in Cork, where they usually have by far the widest range of Irish cask ales under the one roof.

LordSutch

I am just wondering if Real Ale 'used' to be available On Tap back in Dublin back in the day (1920s-30s-40s) ?

Maybe Ireland moved away from Real Ales after independence? and to be honest I am really just surmising because there are still many pubs around Dublin with old signs both inside & outside advertising Ale's, Stout, Porter, Spirits available here, which makes me wonder was there a time . . . ?

noby

Right up the late sixties, I would say. Then Guinness started using kegs and nitro, to try to emulate the appearance of cask ale. The convenience to the publican was their big selling point. A similar trend happened in the UK, and from that CAMRA was born. Unfortunately, living on an island with one dominant brewer meant cask pretty much went overnight here.

In the 70s in the UK John Smiths, amongst others, started supplying the pubs with 5 barrel bulk storage tanks, which were filled up by a bulk lorry, similar to the way you get your oil delivered. Thankfully that practice didn't last.

BeerNut

Camelot wrote: »

I am just wondering if Real Ale 'used' to be available On Tap back in Dublin back in the day (1920s-30s-40s) ?

Yes. The early '60s was when the change came: Guinness, now in complete control of the market, invented nitrokegging and stopped producing cask beer. It took another ten or twenty years before the same thing began to happen in Britain, where the market was more diverse. Except there the drinkers organised, stood up and said "No".

Edit: by which I mean: what Noby said.

noby

Mark the day: I beat TBN to a reply.

oblivious

Camelot wrote: »

I am just wondering if Real Ale 'used' to be available On Tap back in Dublin back in the day (1920s-30s-40s) ?

Maybe Ireland moved away from Real Ales after independence? and to be honest I am really just surmising because there are still many pubs around Dublin with old signs both inside & outside advertising Ale's, Stout, Porter, Spirits available here, which makes me wonder was there a time . . . ?

ALSO you are forgeting real ales do not need a hand pump to dispense them, a more practical way is to dispense it by gravity

noby

Ale's, Stout, Porter, Spirits available here

Actually it is funny to see those signs, and a row of 'handpumps' on the bar. There must be a couple of English tourists who get their hopes up, only to be told they're purely decorative.

LordSutch

Very true Noby, I had friends over from England last year & the question came up later in the evening "Where can I get a real Pint mate" to which sadly, we know the answer (in Real Ale terms).

Actually I must inquire in that Pub opposite the Gaiety Theatre (downstairs) would they try London Pride or any other Caske Ale for the duration of this years Six Nations Rugby!

They should do a roooooaring trade with the amount of English, Welsh, & Scottish Rugby supporters that drink in that place ............

oblivious

Camelot wrote: »

Actually I must inquire in that Pub opposite the Gaiety Theatre (downstairs) would they try London Pride or any other Caske Ale for the duration of this years Six Nations Rugby!

But keeping real ale is a skill and true cellarmanship is no longer practices here in Ireland and is not really suite to one off servings.

BeerNut

Camelot wrote: »

They should do a roooooaring trade with the amount of English, Welsh, & Scottish Rugby supporters that drink in that place

They come to Dublin to drink Guinness. Remember: Diageo owns this town.

LordSutch

Sadly thats very true BeerNut, it was just wishfull thinking on my part really.