Targets - The big 8

Krusty_Clown

aburke wrote: »

...gain a bit of humility.No harm.
Alan

Most of us are coming from the side of the fence where we have too much humility ('iation!) and need encouragement. I never ran in my youth at all (was never offered the opportunity, and never pursued it on my own initiative), but now greatly regret it, as it has become such a huge part of my regular life now.

My goals now, are to break into the top 10% of mainstream events, which I've done in Donadea, and just missed out in Dublin Marathon (10.35% or something similar), and also to get that all important Boston qualifier. Athletics clubs should be for those who are greatly improving, not just those who are great! Good to hear the Galway clubs are such inclined.

plodder

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I totally agree with you. Having said that not many people in my club could meet some of the times stated. I hope Boards AC woks out for you, but if not don't be afraid to join physical (instead of a virtual) club. I know of loads that are crying out for members of all standards.

I was just looking at the results of the Raheny 5 mile race this year. It's interesting because it shows the club affilations of all runners. If you look at the runners who finished just under 30 min, less than half are associated with a club, and the numbers drop fairly dramatically after that. Beyond the 34 minute level, there are very few club runners involved.

I've always been amazed that clubs don't make an effort to try and recruit more of these people.

What is the problem? Is it that (Dublin) city clubs aren't interested in non elite athletes?

Racing Flat

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I know the intent is good, but it's this kind of thread would put off people like myself from ever joining a club. Particularly when I see the 'back of the pack' times. Is it any wonder that Irish athletic clubs are in decline, if they target the top 5-10% of the field?

Roll-on Boards AC!!

As the OP that was the exact opposite intention of the thread, so apologies. Meant to 'motivate' to give food for thought for setting targets post marathon.

Racing Flat wrote: »

Club runners of a certain standard aspire to the following targets, nice round numbers...

Maybe if I had explained this more, or Tunney had read the OP this would have been avoided. I distinctly said club runners of a certain standard, as obviously better club runners can do these at ease. The other point is that the numbers are so round - break 3 or 4 hours for a marathon is more satisfying for most than 2.55 or 3.55. Similarly 20 mins for 5k is a real mark to go for that people understand...

tunney wrote: »

Not to be too harsh but club runners don't aspire to those targets. Way too slow, at least the male ones. More realistic targets for club runners are

1 mile - 5 mins
3k - 9:30 mins
5k - 17:30 mins
5miles - 27:30 mins
10k - 36 mins
10miles - 55 minutes
Half Marathon - 1:14 mins
Marathon - 2:45 hours

Don't really have the same ring to them do they? When you're sitting in the pub in 50 years talking about running, no one is going to say, 'Did you ever break 74mins for the half', are they? But if you say 'I ran a 5 mile in 30 mins' it might mean more. Once you've broken the round number ones, well then you'll set new targets, obviously.

tunney wrote: »

Just to clarify those times are for a slow club runner before cfitz has a fitz.

tunney wrote: »

Back of pack club runner. An average/slow club runner. Fast club runners would be alot higher.

These posts are both ill-informed and elitist, as some others have indicated. Maybe the problem is with the lack of definition of a club runner. But go to many clubs and you'll get fellows who can go under 15mins for 5k and 2.30 for the marathon etc., but you'll also get fellows just under 30mins and 5 hours for those distances, respectively - look up any of the club websites for Dublin marathon results and you'll see a massive range.

Krusty, if you were at my club this week, you'd have had an option of runnning with fellows at close to 5 minute mile pace for 4 miles in one group, or could have joined another group (split into subgroups) for a 10mile in times ranging from 65mins to 80mins - if this was too fast for you, you would have had the option of curtailing the 10 mile at 5 or 7 miles. If that was still too fast you could have gone to do a few laps of a field where there would be older fellows, fellows coming back from injury, meet and train girls doing walking and running, so something for all paces. And you'd be running with the club, so we'd call you a club runner. You'd be respected for your own times and goals and encouraged and helped to improve.

hunnymonster

When I use the term "club runner" I tend to mean someone at the sharper end of ability. I don't know where I picked this up. Talking about the more mid-pack runner like myself, I would tend to say someone who is a member of a club. Technically not different nomenclature but means something different in my head.

For example, I would say 3 hours for a marathon is something any runner could aim at. sub 2:45 is starting to move into good "club runner" terrotory for me.

Regardless of the absolutes, I don't think women need 33% more time than men e.g. 3 versus 4 hour marathon.

Racing Flat

plodder wrote: »

I've always been amazed that clubs don't make an effort to try and recruit more of these people.

What is the problem? Is it that (Dublin) city clubs aren't interested in non elite athletes?

Not at all. All clubs will want as many members as possible to increase income from membership fees. I'd say it's more a case of these runners are not interested in athletics clubs, rather than the other way around. Anytime we are out running, if we see someone running who is not affiliated to a club we will invite them up to the club, some take us up on the invite, many don't...

cfitz

plodder wrote: »

I was just looking at the results of the Raheny 5 mile race this year. It's interesting because it shows the club affilations of all runners. If you look at the runners who finished just under 30 min, less than half are associated with a club, and the numbers drop fairly dramatically after that. Beyond the 34 minute level, there are very few club runners involved.

I've always been amazed that clubs don't make an effort to try and recruit more of these people.

Are you sure they don't make an effort to recruit these people?

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

When I use the term "club runner" I tend to mean someone at the sharper end of ability. I don't know where I picked this up. Talking about the more mid-pack runner like myself, I would tend to say someone who is a member of a club. Technically not different nomenclature but means something different in my head.

Ditto.

Since I realised that not everyone shares the same interpretation of the term (back on page two) I've been racking my brains where I heard such a term and why I believe it to mean what I do. Can't figure it out.

thirtyfoot

plodder wrote: »

What is the problem? Is it that (Dublin) city clubs aren't interested in non elite athletes?

Far from it. As Racing Flat has said you'd be pleasantly surprised if you decided to join a club. Up and down the country there are "non-elite" athletes in the clubs. In my eyes there are 16 elite irish athletes and 1 triathlete and they were in Beijing, the rest of us are mere club athletes whether you run a 10k in 50mins or a 100m in 10.70. Elite gets bandied about too easily I think.

Jaysus, when getting changed in the dressing rooms in Santry on a weeknight if you said "lads, did you realise we are elite", the young lads would ask "whats elite" and not realise that since they are junior international they could possibly be considered elite while the ould lads would probably have a seizure due to the excessive laughter:D

Woddle

Racing Flat wrote: »

Runners of a certain standard aspire to the following targets, nice round numbers...

1 mile - 5 mins
3k - 10 mins
5k - 20 mins
5miles - 30 mins
10k - 40 mins
10miles - 1 hour
Half Marathon - 90 mins
Marathon - 3 hours

I'll be using these to help me improve over 09, so much appreciated RF. I had been using a guide from Bruce Tullohs book running is easy, it's a 100 steps, I have it saved as a jpeg, not sure if I'm allowed to put it up though?.
I'm currently at 52, which is to run 5 in 35 mins.

cfitz

Racing Flat wrote: »

These posts are both ill-informed and elitist, as some others have indicated.

'Elitism' gets very bad press on this forum

plodder

Racing Flat wrote: »

Not at all. All clubs will want as many members as possible to increase income from membership fees. I'd say it's more a case of these runners are not interested in athletics clubs, rather than the other way around. Anytime we are out running, if we see someone running who is not affiliated to a club we will invite them up to the club, some do, many don't...

I think races would be a good time to do that as well. You get loads of people handing out flyers for races, but never for clubs. That's what I've found strange. And then you have the really big mass-participation races, surely the AAI could do something there, to encourage people to join a club.

There is definitely a perception out there that they cater more for the elite end of the scale (even if that isn't true). I'm not a member of a club myself, and I've thought about joining one, but just never got round to it. I've only been running for 4 years anyway ...

Racing Flat

tunney wrote: »

Ditto.

Since I realised that not everyone shares the same interpretation of the term (back on page two) I've been racking my brains where I heard such a term and why I believe it to mean what I do. Can't figure it out.

My bad, writing club runner in the op - have amended now! To me club runner is anyone who runs at a club, but I'd say most people probably go with the Brendan Foster version, ie when commenting on the BUPA 10k once it gets to around 33mins he'll say ' now you've all the club runners coming in', but I'm not sure when the 'club runners' get replaced by 'fun runners'...Maybe a club runner is someone who's not elite, but is still a good runner - but elite and good runner are all relative

Racing Flat

cfitz wrote: »

'Elitism' gets very bad press on this forum

Well the 'elitism' on this thread (as I perceived it anyway) put people off going to a club. Does that not deserve bad press?

I'm all for elitism and trying to be as good as you can and think people should have high expectations, but it shouldn't be used in such a way that it puts people off in my opinion. In times gone by there was a sub 40 group in Dublin where you could only train with the group if you ran under 40mins for 10k. I think that's ridiculous. Let everyone come to training and the faster ones can group up together and the slower ones can go together.

Krusty_Clown

cfitz wrote: »

'Elitism' gets very bad press on this forum

Everyone loves Elites, but Elitism... Whole different ball-game.
Elitism is the viewpoint that only those who are elites should be allowed to air their views.

I also didn't say there was anything wrong with clubs with very high standards, just that I wouldn't be able to join them. But if all clubs had extremely high standards, there would be no growth, only decline, as everyone has to start somewhere.

cfitz

Racing Flat wrote: »

My bad, writing club runner in the op - have amended now! To me club runner is anyone who runs at a club, but I'd say most people probably go with the Brendan Foster version, ie when commenting on the BUPA 10k once it gets to around 33mins he'll say ' now you've all the club runners coming in', but I'm not sure when the 'club runners' get replaced by 'fun runners'...Maybe a club runner is someone who's not elite, but is still a good runner - but elite and good runner are all relative

Ok, well I think Racing Flat is a bit upset that his post was dragged off topic, so lets get back to the original question. I've never ran a 10 mile race or further so I'll leave those out and I'll refer to both Racing Flat and Tunney's lists:

1 mile - 5 mins

Haven't run many 1 mile races so when I broke this barrier it wasn't very significant as I'd already run faster than 4:30 for 1500m


3k - 10 mins

When I was on my first track season when I was 15 I went fairly close to 10 minutes so the following year I was dying to break it. Early in the season I got close a few times and I was getting a bit frustrated. Then in the Leinster U-17 championships I got my first Leinster track medal with a second place finish and was delighted to find out I ran 9:50.


5k - 20 mins

All my 5ks would have been much faster than this.


5miles - 30 mins

Not sure about this one, didn't take too long to reach it anyway.


10k - 40 mins

I ran the 10k in the community games but I didn't get my times. I'd say they were below 40 minutes.

---

1 mile - 5 mins

I ran 4:29 in the Leinster Junior 1500m I think. I remember breaking 4:30 for 1500m was a milestone for me anyway.


3k - 9:30 mins

This is one of my favourite running memories. It was in the heats of the Irish Universities Indoors and I was 18 years old I think. My pb was 9:45 from the same race the year before and I'd never qualified through a heat ever! The race was quite controlled and I just stayed with the top group without thinking about times. When it sped up I faded from 3rd back to 5th but I held on at the end to take the final fastest loser spot by less than a hundreth of a second. And I knocked 19 seconds off my pb to run 9:26.


5k - 17:30 mins

This one came easily to me, I remember running a 5000m schools race and being disappointed that my time was over 17 minutes.


5miles - 27:30 mins

Not sure when I broke this but I've run faster through 10k races anyway.


10k - 36 mins

I remember running 36:59 when I was about 17/18 but I think it was ages until I ran another 10k - maybe I only officialy broke 36 minutes relatively recently. But I would have run faster in cross-country at times.

Racing Flat

1. 5k - 20 mins
2. Half Marathon - 90 mins
3. 10k - 40 mins
4. 5miles - 30 mins
5. 1 mile - 5 mins
6. 3k - 10 mins
7. Marathon - 3 hours
8. 10miles - 1 hour


Only the 3k in 10mins left to do.

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

Well the 'elitism' on this thread (as I perceived it anyway) put people off going to a club. Does that not deserve bad press?

I'm with you on this. The funny thing is most elite (internationals in my scale of things) Irish athletes I know (less than 5 if I'm honest) do not display the amount of elitism sometimes bandied around on some of the threads here. I think this ties in with what Tinge has said.

I think you have to be careful when you grade runners as slow etc. At the end of the day its all relative.

Getting back to Peckhams OP. I would agree with most your times. If I sat in a pub and met a guy and spat out those times as his PBs. I'd say to myself, this guy is a very decent runner.

Racing Flat

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

The funny thing is most elite (internationals in my scale of things) Irish athletes I know (less than 5 if I'm honest) do not display the amount of elitism sometimes bandied around on some of the threads here.

+1.

The first night I went to a club, I nearly killed myself trying to stay with a group doing 10miles in about 70mins. Afterwards I got talking to a fellow and he asked me what we did, when I explained wide eyed that we did 10miles in 70, he just said, 'Ya, those lads go at a fair clip'. It was a few weeks before I realised he can go under 48 for 10 miles. A few months after that though when I asked him what it was like running in a race with Bekele and he said 'Your guess is as good as mine - I was so far back it was like being in a different race.' I suppose that might keep you from getting too up yourself alright.

Stupid_Private

plodder wrote: »

What is the problem? Is it that (Dublin) city clubs aren't interested in non elite athletes?

It's off the topic of the thread but I feel equipped to answer this after only returning back to Dublin recently and going on the hunt for a club. I mailed and/or trained with 5 different clubs in Dublin.

One club told me there was no organisation to the mens team. I was just down at the club enquirinig and got talking to one of the women's team.
Two clubs that I trained with had seperate trainings for the senior team and the other members which I thought was a bit crap. No one that I talked to knew when or where they trained.
One club mailed me back and asked me for my times in 10k races this year so they could put me in an appropriate group. I replied with 34 minutes and I never heard back from them.
One club didn't appear to have offer any coaching advice to anyone that wasn't one of the top top guys. You just went down, did your own thing and went home.
The last club mailed me with a full break down on how there club works, the coaching involved, what I could expect, the various levels they cater for, and said they'd love to have me join. I never mentioned my times to them, just that I was looking for a club. That's the club I joined.

So my personal experience of finding a club in Dublin was fairly crap to be honest.

MCOS

Hi,

Just to draw a comparison with another 'amateur' sport if I may. Rowing.

All rowers in the country (ok the vast majority) are club rowers. That is they are affiliated with a Club. Even if you have your own scull and just tip away leisurely you have to house it somewhere, usually affiliating with some club. However a 'club rower' could be perceived as a club standard rower, that is someone who competes up and down the country and peaks at the national championships. Do well and you could be in the International development or selection fold. You are now at National standard. Get selected and represent at major events and you are Elite. Maybe this is a bit of a simplistic viewpoint but its one I have to use as I have never been an athletics club member. The difference with running is how many unaffiliated runners there are out there and quite a few who are a decent standard. So a club runner is someone who joins a club and competes nationally for the club. If they are winning national champs or winning their categories are they not Elite club runners.

The point is that the Elite of any club will be at or close to international standards and being so few in numbers (points about depth taken on board) is why they are called and referred to as Elite. I know quite a few International athletes and none of them would even consider themselves Elite because they are looking at the really really Elite... Olympic gold medallists et al.

The rest of us are club athletes, and just as there are different level of Elites, there are different levels of Club athletes. So as RR and RF say its all relative. There is always someone faster than you!

So getting back to the OP I'll go for that set of 8, I've got the 5k one in training but I have to agree with Peckham.. the 10 mile one si going to be a reach

Woddle

MCOS wrote: »

Hi,

Maybe this is a bit of a simplistic viewpoint but its one I have to use as I have never been an athletics club member. The difference with running is how many unaffiliated runners there are out there and quite a few who are a decent standard.

This is true and reminds me of a story, I worked with a guy called Phil Kilgannon and we got talking about running. He had never raced before and said he only trained twice a week, so I told him to come along to the cityswift 10 miler and give it a go. I came in in 69 mins and was waiting for Phil at the finish, no sign, 85 mins gone still no sign and then I heard a shout from behind me, he was changed and all and had done it in 62 mins. The guy genuinely had no idea he had a talent and I think last year he did the Berlin half in 70 mins.So how many Phils are out there?

MCOS

Stupid_Private wrote: »

It's off the topic of the thread but I feel equipped to answer this after only returning back to Dublin recently and going on the hunt for a club. I mailed and/or trained with 5 different clubs in Dublin.

One club told me there was no organisation to the mens team. I was just down at the club enquirinig and got talking to one of the women's team.
Two clubs that I trained with had seperate trainings for the senior team and the other members which I thought was a bit crap. No one that I talked to knew when or where they trained.
One club mailed me back and asked me for my times in 10k races this year so they could put me in an appropriate group. I replied with 34 minutes and I never heard back from them.
One club didn't appear to have offer any coaching advice to anyone that wasn't one of the top top guys. You just went down, did your own thing and went home.
The last club mailed me with a full break down on how there club works, the coaching involved, what I could expect, the various levels they cater for, and said they'd love to have me join. I never mentioned my times to them, just that I was looking for a club. That's the club I joined.

So my personal experience of finding a club in Dublin was fairly crap to be honest.

Thats shocking. I once trained with a bunch of guys who moved straight from a years as a junior to intermediate status. Some had no respect for novices and were hell bent on selection. This used to amuse me as they hadn't a national pot between them. I had 2 which I gained as a novice (I was a late comer). Another 'good club novice from my club' at the time, was competing in Beijing last summer and is as modest as they come.

Stupid_Private I'm sorry you had that experience, but fair play for digging in and finding a Club with the right attitude .

plodder

MCOS wrote: »

So getting back to the OP I'll go for that set of 8, I've got the 5k one in training but I have to agree with Peckham.. the 10 mile one si going to be a reach

I was very interested in that set of 8 you posted for aiming at a 3:30 marathon. The thing for me, is while I have done 1:41 for a 1/2M, the shorter distances look a bit more challenging. But, it is very useful to have something to aim for.

shels4ever

you have me thinking now about how close I can get to my best times again, I dont see a reason why I shoulndt be able to have a go at at least 5 out of 8 again.

MCOS

plodder wrote: »

I was very interested in that set of 8 you posted for aiming at a 3:30 marathon. The thing for me, is while I have done 1:41 for a 1/2M, the shorter distances look a bit more challenging. But, it is very useful to have something to aim for.

As you tick them off, the confidence will cement itself for hitting your main goal. Go for it!

Racing Flat

shels4ever wrote: »

you have me thinking now about how close I can get to my best times again, I dont see a reason why I shoulndt be able to have a go at at least 5 out of 8 again.

I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to have a go at at least 8 out of 8 again.

shels4ever

Racing Flat wrote: »

I don't see a reason why you shouldn't be able to have a go at at least 8 out of 8 again.

You never know , Lots of hard work I might just do that.. If my sessions keep going the way today went its possible

robinph

Racing Flat wrote: »

1 mile - 5 mins
3k - 10 mins
5k - 20 mins
5miles - 30 mins
10k - 40 mins
10miles - 1 hour
Half Marathon - 90 mins
Marathon - 3 hours

Woddle reminded me of this list of times on the wander back to the car park after yesterdays race. I can now cross the 10k one off as done at least.

ecoli

1 mile - 4 mins 41
3k - 9 mins 37
5k - 16 mins 32
5miles - 26 mins 41
10k - 34 mins 10
10miles -
Half Marathon -
Marathon -

Started from the bottom and worked my way up to these and now i feel as i am getting able for the bigger races i am excited to try the last three distances and hopefully join the few who have ticked all the boxes lol

Sosa

Originally Posted by Racing Flat
1 mile - 5 mins
3k - 10 mins
5k - 20 mins
5miles - 30 mins
10k - 40 mins
10miles - 1 hour
Half Marathon - 90 mins
Marathon - 3 hours

I have not achived any of the big 8 ( yet )
I know that i could do the 5k,10k and half marathon times now,just a matter of running the races.
The 5m time is a target of mine this summer ( very close to it anyway )
I hope to do a marathon this autumn,initially hoping for sub 3:15,see how training goes.
The 10m and marathon times are without a doubt the toughest on the list.