dilemma re having children

areyou

Having read a message elsewhere on the boards.ie site about a lady who posted about her dilemma re having children with her fiancé, I have a few questions.
While I understand the whole wanting to have a child thing, would you really place a greater importance on having one (a kid) as opposed to staying with your man?
I mean, can someone explain the thought process of a woman in such a situation.
I might want kids one day, and if I was in a long term relationship with a woman and for some reason she couldn’t have them, I’d never in a million years considering leaving her if she couldn’t have them.
That’s why I find it really hard to understand how a woman could be in love with a man, in a long term relationship and end it because he mighn’t want kids.
Surely, your partner is way more important than kids? Or potential kids
I know from our own family growing up, our parents had their time together and I’m astonished that someone in a long term relationship would consider leaving it for the sake of just having a kid..
What percentage of women would think along this lines?
Would you leave a guy because he wouldn’t want to have kids?
Do people marry, not because of love, but because they want to have kids?
Met an ex recently, and when we were going out she blurted out that she had a plan that within x years she wanted marriage and x years a kid..we split up..Sure enough, a couple of years later we meet, and she has the husband, the kid..all very pleasant…but I couldn’t help but think poor sucker had been completely reeled in..Any thoughts?

SarahSassy

I was very interested in that thread too but think the point is being missed in that they had agreed to have kids when they got married and she is engaged to him on that basis.. He has changed his mind....

I would want to be with someone with the same life goals as me and, to ensure that, I sussed out early in my relationship if my partner would like to have kids (if possible) and he would. As such we have the same goals in life... If he changed his mind I would have to think seriously because we would no longer have the same goals..

It a completely different scenario if a couple are together, agree to have kids and then are unable.... In that instance, I personally would almost prefer it to be an issue with my partner as I would feel guilty if it were me not to be able to fulfil a dream of his. In saying that, fostering and adoption would be equally important to me. Thats an aside...

People marry for all kind of reasons - financial, security, companionship and also to have kids. Most marry cos they are in love and all of the above is a bonus...

I have no issue if someone tells me at the start that he doesnt want kids but to leave it til we were walkng down the aisle would seriously P me off and cause serious issues between us which may lead to a break up.

With regard your ex - maybe he had the same goals as her and wanted to be r'eeled in'.. Its not only women who want to be parents.

pow wow

Not being able to have them and not wanting to have them are two very different things, so your analogy about leaving or not leaving a woman who couldn't have kids is somewhat irrelevant.

Piste

If I knew the guy I was with didn't wan't kids from the start it might put me of marrying him. But if I fell in love and then found out he didn't want kids then I couldn;t leave him.

Chinafoot

areyou wrote: »

Having read a message elsewhere on the boards.ie site about a lady who posted about her dilemma re having children with her fiancé, I have a few questions.
While I understand the whole wanting to have a child thing, would you really place a greater importance on having one (a kid) as opposed to staying with your man?
I mean, can someone explain the thought process of a woman in such a situation.
I might want kids one day, and if I was in a long term relationship with a woman and for some reason she couldn’t have them, I’d never in a million years considering leaving her if she couldn’t have them.
That’s why I find it really hard to understand how a woman could be in love with a man, in a long term relationship and end it because he mighn’t want kids.

There's a HUGE difference between being unable to have children and not wanting to have children. Being unable to have them still leaves you with the option of fostering or adoption.

If someone wants children and their partner doesn't it can often be a major deal breaker. I have to say, it would be for me. I definitely want children and I want to be with someone who wants to share that future with me. If we both wanted such majorly different things there's no way the relationship would work out and it would be better to cut your losses and move on.

areyou wrote: »

Surely, your partner is way more important than kids? Or potential kids
I know from our own family growing up, our parents had their time together and I’m astonished that someone in a long term relationship would consider leaving it for the sake of just having a kid..

Thats a rather simplistic way of looking at it. It's not just "a kid", it's your child, your flesh and blood. For some women (and I'm sure some men) that's very important for them and without it they would be unhappy.

areyou wrote: »

What percentage of women would think along this lines?

Everyone is different.

areyou wrote: »

Would you leave a guy because he wouldn’t want to have kids?

Yes. As a woman I can't decide to have children at any stage in my life. I want children and I want to have them when I'm healthy and when they will have the best possible chance of also being healthy.

areyou wrote: »

Do people marry, not because of love, but because they want to have kids?

Again, too simplistic. I place a greater importance on having a child than getting married. Marriage isn't a big deal for me. Having a baby within the next 10 years is. I need to be with someone who wants the same things as me otherwise our relationship will ultimately fail. There was a lot of good advice handed out on that other thread, you should go back and read it again. I'm with my partner because I love him and want to be with him and because we both want the same things for the future. We're heading in the same direction. How often do you hear about couples who split because they "wanted different things"? Lots I'm sure.

areyou wrote: »

Met an ex recently, and when we were going out she blurted out that she had a plan that within x years she wanted marriage and x years a kid..we split up..Sure enough, a couple of years later we meet, and she has the husband, the kid..all very pleasant…but I couldn’t help but think poor sucker had been completely reeled in..Any thoughts?

So you split because you didn't have the same plans for the future? I'm not sure why you are so baffled by the woman in PI now. I also think it's a bit unfair to assume your ex's husband has been reeled in just because he's in a situation that you didn't want. Chances are he wanted the same as his wife, which is why their relationship works and your didn't.

Redpunto

In our society its a rarity for people in a long term loving relationship not to have or want kids, its a basic want for most people to want to have kids at some stage so not wanting them it not the norm.

Not wanting kids is completely different to not being able to have kids, if ya cant have kids you still have the ability to foster or adopt.

WindSock

Folks, would you mind leaving the references to the current PI thread out of this thread, thanks.

Amazotheamazing

Having kids is hugely important to me, so yes I would leave my partner if we couldn't have kids. I wouldn't expect my partner to stay with me if i couldn't have kids and she wanted them.

juke

areyou wrote: »

I might want kids one day

But right now you don't. Is this maybe why you're not seeing the other point of view?

I don't want children - and my OH doesn't either - but we worked that out early on. If I changed my mind and he didn't, I suspect it would be enough to leave him. And vise versa (though I'd haunt him in later life )

I believe a wish/need to have children is far more powerful than wanting to be in a long term relationship with a loved spouse/partner. And I'm not sure that that wish/need would be any different for men or women.

You say you parents had their time together - but they also had you... a child. IMHO not logical arguement.

ebmma

People are so different..

As far as I'm concerned my husband is more important than having kids. I know he feels the same way. about me

We might decide to have kids or not to have kids, but it would not be a reason to leave a person I love.

And I do believe it is one of the things to discuss before entering marriage/long term relationship with a person.

I have not read a thread OP is referring too, but I used to know a couple who couldn't conceive for 7 years and the wife told husband that she loves him and all, but if he wants to leave her because she can't get pregnant she'll understand. WTF????:eek:

She Devil

I never wanted children until i met my current partner, now i can not wait to have mini me and him running around the place!! Unfortunately I am having difficulty in doing so! We from the very beginning always talked about who our kids would support in sports, who would be his religon who would be mine Just all light hearted stuff, but those are the things that made me realise we were solid we were safe and we were us.

We have talked about adoption because for us to have a family is huge to us, we love each other beyond belief sometimes i have to pinch myself to believe its true. Suddenly having babies has become one of my life missions. I hope it can happen. If it doesnt I know my partner would never ever leave me. BUT i can see why a woman would wonder who she is marrying?? and even question it!!

Alot of women feel that its their womanly duty, sometimes a husband isnt enough. Its called being maternal, and there is nothing wrong with that!! To be able to give the gift of life is amazing!

ebmma

She Devil wrote: »

I never wanted children until i met my current partner, now i can not wait to have mini me and him running around the place!! We from the very beginning always talked about who our kids would support in sports, who would be his religon who would be mine Just all light hearted stuff, but those are the things that made me realise we were solid we were safe and we were us.

Yeah, that's exactly how it is for me
Before I met my husband I just had a vague notion that I should at some stage have kids because that's what all women suppose to do (even though I didn't really want to).

I think it is really up to the couple. There's so many family models and not everyone is going to be happy from the same sort of thing.

I know some women whose attitude would be "I want a baby for myself, I don't really care if I'm with somebody or not", while it is not at all my cup of tea, if it truly makes them happy...
At the end of the day this is what it is all about: personal happiness.

Chinafoot

ebmma wrote: »

I have not read a thread OP is referring too, but I used to know a couple who couldn't conceive for 7 years and the wife told husband that she loves him and all, but if he wants to leave her because she can't get pregnant she'll understand. WTF????:eek:

In fairness, I think in that scenario it's a common thought for the infertile person to have. They see it as their fault that there are no children, they see themselves as a failure and they know how badly they themselves want children so they think they would understand if their partner wanted to end the relationship and find someone who could have children. It sounds horrible and cold but again it's a totally different situation and is nowhere near the same as finding out your OH doesn't want children.

It definitely is a conversation to have before marriage because for a marriage/relationship to work both people have to be on the same page and heading in the same direction.

ebmma

Chinafoot wrote: »

It definitely is a conversation to have before marriage because for a marriage/relationship to work both people have to be on the same page and heading in the same direction.

That is also one of the conversations me and my husband had: what if one of us is infertile?

I apologise for too much emotions, maybe that story isn't really that relevant, but it just seems so sad to me every time I remember
It ended well anyway, they had 2 kids.

Latchy

A relation of mine when she was younger found out that due to an disabilty ( severe arthritis ) having children would be complicated and less of an option as she got older .This of course put her in a dilemma as although she herself could in time come to terms with a life without children ,she was concerned on how this might affect any long term relationships with the opposite sex .Obiously any guy who was looking to become a potential father knew her situation and she was quick to point this out to any boyfriends .She did however meet a guy who knew straight away that not only would he not be able to father a child with her but also her condidtion would probably get worse as she got older and he would have to be prepared for a wife/partner as an invalid .I am gald to say that 20 odd years later they are still together and as much in love now as when they first met . .I know they guy in question would have made a good father ,having seem him around his friends kids but he cared enough and wanted to be with the womon in question.That takes a lot of give ,to be able to push being fartheless to one side and devote your life to another which precisely what he did. So yes, hurdles such as being childless can be overcome as long as both know what's at stake and in the long term .

ebmma

latchyco wrote: »

A relation of mine when she was younger found out that due to an disabilty ( severe arthritis ) having children would be complicated and less of an option as she got older .This of course put her in a dilemma as although she herself could in time come to terms with a life without children ,she was concerned on how this might affect any long term relationships with the opposite sex .Obiously any guy who was looking to become a potential father knew her situation and she was quick to point this out to any boyfriends .She did however meet a guy who knew straight away that not only would he not be able to father a child with her but also her condidtion would probably get worse as she got older and he would have to be prepared for a wife/partner as an invalid .I am gald to say that 20 odd years later they are still together and as much in love now as when they first met . .I know they guy in question would have made a good father ,having seem him around his friends kids but he cared enough and wanted to be with the womon in question.That takes a lot of give ,to be able to push being fartheless to one side and devote your life to another precisely what he did.So yes hurdles such as being childless can be overcome as long as both know what's at stake and in the long term .

Gosh, I'm so happy for them :-)

Chinafoot

latchyco wrote: »

So yes hurdles such as being childless can be overcome as long as both know what's at stake and in the long term .

Absolutely. And the key there is that both know. If they had gotten engaged and the guy then found out that children wouldn't be possible, the outcome may not have been the same.

Honesty right from the start is definitely the only policy in situations like this.

Latchy

ebmma wrote: »

Gosh, I'm so happy for them :-)

It's being extremly hard over the years ,specialy for two very independent people and she never let her disability stop her from doing everyday things even though she would have being in a lot of physical and no doubt emotional Pain .Very brave and not sure i could have coped in same circumstances .

Chinafoot wrote: »

Absolutely. And the key there is that both know. If they had gotten engaged and the guy then found out that children wouldn't be possible, the outcome may not have been the same.

Honesty right from the start is definitely the only policy in situations like this.

Yes indeed and in this case it worked .I actually know she tried to put him off several times ,hinting that he should find somebody else but i suppose if somebody is going to stay with you for the rest of your life you want it to be for the right reasons and she (understandably ) needed to know this .Turns out he was as devoted to her as much as she was to him and they have, despite their difficultys and at times many many frustrations ( couldent even begin to describe ) tried to get on with it and live life to the full as much as possible.

metrovelvet

The problem with being with someone who says they dont want children is that if you did get pregnant, they can turn around and tell you they told you from the beginning they didnt want children and you'd be on your own holding the baby.

Dudess

Redpunto wrote: »

In our society its a rarity for people in a long term loving relationship not to have or want kids, its a basic want for most people to want to have kids at some stage so not wanting them it not the norm.

Are you sure about that? Wouldn't surprise me if many people had children because it's the thing they're "supposed" to do.

rainbow kirby

Redpunto wrote: »

In our society its a rarity for people in a long term loving relationship not to have or want kids, its a basic want for most people to want to have kids at some stage so not wanting them it not the norm.

Not wanting kids is completely different to not being able to have kids, if ya cant have kids you still have the ability to foster or adopt.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. Not everyone in a long term relationship does want kids - and not everyone who has kids wanted to have them in the first place.

(Personally - I am in a position where I both do not want kids and would find it extremely difficult to have kids)

Morgase

A different perspective on it from me... I'm in the opposite situation to a lot of women.

I don't want to ever have children and I have always felt this way. Even after meeting my boyfriend, who I have been with for many years now, I have not changed.

I have always known that he, however, does want to have children at some point, so I know that one day we will have to go our separate ways, when his biological clock starts ticking!

SarahSassy

Morgase, I dont mean to appear patronising but I find that very sad and very brave..

Nightwish

I am another female who doesnt ever want children either. I know my boyfriend does somewhere down the line. It is something we will have to deal with in the future, but he knows my opinion, and has done since before we got together.

ebmma

latchyco wrote: »

It's being extremly hard over the years ,specialy for two very independent people and she never let her disability stop her from doing everyday things even though she would have being in a lot of physical and no doubt emotional Pain .Very brave and not sure i could have coped in same circumstances .

I just think it's great they had each other for support through it all. I ca say I truly admire people like that.

Latchy

ebmma wrote: »

I just think it's great they had each other for support through it all. I ca say I truly admire people like that.

Indeed because everything is structured towards her needs which says a lot about commitment and very admirable .

Intresting that people say they dont wish to have children and people will have their own reasons.Much better to not having them, than having them and not wanting them .Perhaps it's also the way society has changed with women having more freedom and bigger career options were as previous generations of womon would see geting married and having children as the next step up from dating .But just not wanting children is good enough reasons for many now it seems .

Dudess

I really think any "want" for children I have right now is the fear that I'll regret not having them when it's too late. Not really a good enough reason if I'm honest with myself.

She Devil

Dudess wrote: »

I really think any "want" for children I have right now is the fear that I'll regret not having them when it's too late. Not really a good enough reason if I'm honest with myself.

But when you see yourself in a kid you will never ever regret it. You will say imagine if i hadn't!!

wasabi

Nightwish wrote: »

I am another female who doesnt ever want children either. I know my boyfriend does somewhere down the line. It is something we will have to deal with in the future, but he knows my opinion, and has done since before we got together.

Same here, just don't want them, cannot visualise myself as a parent. My last two relationships have ended over the exes biological clocks starting ticking. Broke my heart both times.

I've heard of other couples managing to work it out though... sometimes if the one who wants kids looks deeply enough at it they may find they'd be happy enough being around kids being a scout leader or similar, or some nieces/nephews come along that they can be favourite uncle with or whatever.

Morgase

SarahSassy wrote: »

Morgase, I dont mean to appear patronising but I find that very sad and very brave..

Ah you're not patronising. I suppose the way I look at it is that his biological clock may not start ticking for many years yet, so there's plenty of time yet to just have fun with being together.

Stheno

She Devil wrote: »

But when you see yourself in a kid you will never ever regret it. You will say imagine if i hadn't!!

Can't say that's 100% true tbh I know one person who didn't want kids, had one to please their partner and has never been able to bond with the child, but that is one isolated example.

I'm 35, never wanted children from age 16, and still don't want them, nor do I regret not having them (being the oldest of ten, and having a fair few nieces nephews meant I'd loads of exposure to kids)

I don't wonder if I had had children what they would be like, either in looks or personality, and relationships have ended in the past in part due to my not wanting children.

That said, I do love children, and like being in their company/presence

quinevere

I never wanted kids ,

I never considered it and then when I was with my ex I suddenly found I did want them and that was a deal breaker for us ( he didn't want any ),

I now dont want them I think everybody changes their minds based on their circumstances at the time - not many people can predict the future or what their needs/ wants will evolve into - clocks could start ticking and some clocks may never tick. but relationship dont work if you dont want to similar things !! no matter what you feel

Zaph

I would have loved to have had kids when I was younger, just never met the right woman. Now that I'm of a more "mature" vintage (stop sniggering down the back!), I'm not so sure any more. I'm not saying it'll never happen, although the odds are obviously diminshing, but I think at this stage in my life I've probably become fairly set in my ways and I'd find it hard to have to readjust everything to account for the patter of tiny feet. I have three nephews and two baby nieces, I guess spoiling them will have to do for now.

Stheno

Zaph wrote: »

Now that I'm of a more "mature" vintage (stop sniggering down the back!

Here just think of a good mature wine

I've plenty of friends (male and female) with young kids who are in their forties, so never say never

Zaph

nouggatti wrote: »

Here just think of a good mature wine

I've plenty of friends (male and female) with young kids who are in their forties, so never say never

I know several myself. It's more whether I'd actually be bothered or not any more, rather than meeting someone that I'd like to start a family with, that's the issue.

Never wanted kids, don't want them, doubt I ever will. Hate the idea.

If partner did I suppose it would end up being a dealbreaker.

metrovelvet

I didn't want children. He wanted children but not with me or then.

But we got a child and I kept my child and time has led me to love and want my child.

Time did not lead him in the same direction. He still does not want the child.

Malari

I've never wanted kids. I'm in a relationship with a guy who feels the same way and I consider myself very lucky. I couldn't imagine being with someone who you knew wanted children at some stage. I wouldn't feel any of the security and comfort I currently have.

But I do agree with RedPunto that people who don't want kids are in the minority, maybe not a rarity. I feel physically repulsed when I think of becoming pregnant. I think that's probably rare enough. Maybe there's something wrong with me.

Dudess

Ah come on. That's just caving in to all those preconceived notions that women "should" be maternal. I'm not sure I want kids - if there's something wrong with me, well fuk it. So be it. Child-rearing is not for everyone, and all that stuff about how it's a woman's natural destiny is a socio-cultural construction. Some women struggle with raising kids, and post-natal depression, failure to bond... these are not new.
As for being physically repulsed at pregnancy - well I can only imagine how it ruins the body.

I find Redpunto's comment very narrowminded actually. I firmly believe not all couples who have kids want to have kids. Peer pressure isn't just a teenage thing. Monkey see, monkey do. If a woman's married and five of her friends announce they're pregnant, well then it would be quite understandable (if inadvisable) if she started trying for a baby.

Dragan

Malari wrote: »

But I do agree with RedPunto that people who don't want kids are in the minority, maybe not a rarity. I feel physically repulsed when I think of becoming pregnant. I think that's probably rare enough. Maybe there's something wrong with me.

It's a personal choice and doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. Personally i never want kids, it's just not something that ever appeals to me.

I've always been up front and honest about it with people i get involved in. The funny thing is when you tell people and they seem to take upon themselves to change your mind.

"You'll be a great Dad" , "Kids would really suit you" etc etc.

Odd.

As for the whole couples who have kids who didn't want them issue, quite a few of my friends have kids, and quite a few of them have those kids pretty young, outside of marrige etc.

None of the pregnancies were planned.

And in my cold calculated manner some of them should never have happened.

I hate the way child birth is held up as some kind of be and and end all of human acheivement.

Malari

OK, I know humans have a pretty much unique ability to turn against nature, so to speak, which is why people can choose not to have children and why contraception can overcome the sexual urge without having babies as a result. When I say there is something wrong with me, I don'twish to change that. I just won't be passing on my genes to the next generation, which you see as one of the main driving forces in all species. That's probably a contributory reason why there aren't more people like me. Most people who have kids do want them.

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

I really think any "want" for children I have right now is the fear that I'll regret not having them when it's too late. Not really a good enough reason if I'm honest with myself.

If more people thought like you the world would be a much better place.

Well at least ballymun would...;)

I'm with Redpunto on this.
I don't think we would be having discussions if we someone suggested that sexual relationships were a fundemental aspect of the human expierence for most people.
So what is the big deal with the idea of most people getting a deep sense of fullfillment from family?

Yes there are people who don't get anything from caring for others. And fair play to them for having the self awareness to recognoise that.
And obviously you don't need children or a biological bond to be a family.
But honestly I feel that if you don't have that bond from somewhere your human expierence is lacking.
Personally no other achievement could fill that void for me.

Dudess

Moonbaby wrote: »

Yes there are people who don't get anything from caring for others.

Not wanting to have children does not mean the same as not getting anything from caring for others. That really does insinuate those who don't want children are cold and uncaring... I thought we'd moved on from that view.
I'd have thought it's more the being responsible for raising another human being and the stresses and strains that go with parenthood which turn some people off it. Makes sense. Having children really isn't all sweetness and joy and fulfillment as many parents will tell you - even those who wanted to become parents and are happy with being parents.
Personally, I think it's an absolutely terrifying prospect.

ebmma

Also I often get a feeling that people who don't want to have kids are assumed to hate children. Which is not at all true.

Some people are happy dealing with children in their work (e.g. teaching) or helping to raise their nieces and nephews and kids of their friends.

Nothing wrong with that. You can have a very caring personality, love children, but not to want any of your own.

Dragan

Moonbaby wrote: »

Yes there are people who don't get anything from caring for others. And fair play to them for having the self awareness to recognoise that.

Hang on, so not wanting kids = you don't get anything from caring for others?

wtf?

Dudess

Caring is just one aspect of the many that go with child-rearing.

Malari

ebmma wrote: »

Also I often get a feeling that people who don't want to have kids are assumed to have children. Which is not at all true.

Do you mean "are assumed to hate children"? I don't like children particularly, but others are always surprised that I will get on quite well with friends' kids. It's a whole other thing when you can't hand them back to the owner when they start whinging.

ebmma

Malari wrote: »

Do you mean "are assumed to hate children"? I don't like children particularly, but others are always surprised that I will get on quite well with friends' kids. It's a whole other thing when you can't hand them back to the owner when they start whinging.

Thanks Malari, that's exactly what I meant! Just misspelled the word

I don't think anyone should be bullied into having children if they don't want to (at this stage of their life or at all) whether it is direct bullying or more common peer pressure.

There's many things in life that you can give a try and then give it up if you find out that it is not for you - no harm done.
But you can't "undo" having children. So I think it's important to know if this is what you really want or not.

ebmma

wasabi wrote: »

I've heard of other couples managing to work it out though... sometimes if the one who wants kids looks deeply enough at it they may find they'd be happy enough being around kids being a scout leader or similar, or some nieces/nephews come along that they can be favourite uncle with or whatever.

Two of my sister's in law decided not to have kids. Their spouses wanted them. However they wanted to be with person they love most too.

So it worked out in the end.

I hope it works out for you too sometime.

seamus

To say that the desire to have children is "manufactured" is probably going a bit far, but the idea that every woman naturally should want to be a mother, probably is a societal norm. From a base point of view, our physiology doesn't know how to make a baby. All it knows is that it wants to rut. All the time. We possess the rather unique trait of knowing how and why sex produces children. Other animals don't. Other animals aren't driven instinctually to specifically produce offspring - they're driven by instinct to fertilise. They don't know why they're doing it, they don't know what it achieves, all they know is that they need to stick it in something. For animals, they don't make a conscious decision to have children. They just want to have sex.

This was beautfilly illustrated by my parents' two male pups humping eachother's heads last night.

It's also the reason why there's a big difference between declaring that you never want children, and declaring that you never want sex.

The latter is a good deal more difficult because we're pushed by our natural instincts to have sex as much as we can get it.

That said of course, we have still evolved to handle the act of child rearing to the extent that having children does have an emotional and insinctual effect on us. But obviously we're unaware of what that effect is until the children arrive.

If the ultimate goal of all life is to reproduce, then there may be something more than social convention which causes infertile men and woman to feel shame or guilt at the issue. Luckily we also have the ability to logically disassemble that too.

Personally, I think it's an absolutely terrifying prospect.

I would say that's an altogether different issue. By all means if someone doesn't want to have kids, great, but if your primary reason for not wanting kids is fear, it might be worth asking yourself why. Of course, I don't know you, that may be an off-the-cuff remark, but just the way I see it.