What is the point??

Wertz

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Erm just on a point of interest here, I threw a pretty decent halloween party last night and I would just like to say I'm solidly in favour of flagrant exhibitionism. I'm sure the ancients Celts would be too.

Besides, its not the holiday, its the asbos. Most people here had very good halloween experiences long before that subculture started to grow, theres nothing inherent to the occasion that makes it dangerous.

Anyway, its not like you can ban it.

You're taking my point on flagrant exhibitionism out of it's context by cutting the end of the sentence off...my point on that is the whole focus put on haloween, either by those who choose to do the whole party/fancy dress thing or by those who stack up on slabs or beer, palettes and tyres, or air bombs and black cats the previous week and make a nuisance of themselves. This whole build up to a (IMO) pretty pointless holiday/celebration stokes the fires of delinquent youth, already acting the bollocks most nights and fires them on to a whole new level.

You're right, nothing wrong with people getting dressed up, having a knees up and whatever (I personally don't bother, but each to their own) and that would have been more in keeping with the spirit of the season than burning other people's property or throwing eggs at strangers.
There was however always a little sense of lawlessness on halloween night going back to when I was a kid (early 80's) and that has grown alongside our "asbo culture" resulting in the mess that was saturday morning gone. It's all downhill from here in that regard.

No it's not like you can ban it...some people on here would have you think that A) you can and that it would make a difference.
It wouldn't surprise if someone in government seriously proposed it though...given their track record on trying to ban just aboiut everyting else...

RoosterIllusion

I live on College Road in Cork City. Around the corner from my house (behind Lennox's) is some sort of flat complex, looks like council housing. Anyway the place is a dump. There is a small car park beside it (maybe 10 cars worth) and on my way up to the shop on Saturday morning I saw a 2001 car with a concrete block stuck in the windshield. this happened in addition to the stones and rocks being put through the windows a house next door to me and the apples being thrown at my window.

What bastard has the right to put a concrete block through someone's window?

The worst things about all this Halloween stuff are the mindless destructive things perpetrated by sociopathic (not murderous psychopaths, just antisocial psychopaths) idiots deserving of nothing but contempt.

4Xcut

BroomBurner wrote: »

"In Northern Ireland, police officers were attacked with petrol bombs and fireworks in Crossmaglen, Co Armagh shortly last night."

Nobody does it like the Nordies.


Have to agree that it seems to be getting out of hand, a bit like Paddy's day.

But that was probably just because it was also a 70s night that people got a little too into...

SimpleSam06

Wertz wrote: »

my point on that is the whole focus put on haloween, either by those who choose to do the whole party/fancy dress thing or by those who stack up on slabs or beer, palettes and tyres, or air bombs and black cats the previous week and make a nuisance of themselves.

Its a bit unfair to lump the honest revellers in with the scumbags, though, which is what I felt was the point being made. They are two different phenomena. If I picked that up wrong, fair enough.

Wertz wrote: »

This whole build up to a (IMO) pretty pointless holiday/celebration stokes the fires of delinquent youth, already acting the bollocks most nights and fires them on to a whole new level.

Eh what holiday or celebration has a point? I'm not a practising Christian, I don't believe in the canon of the church, but I still celebrate christmas. As for the delinquent youth, that indeed is what must be dealt with.

Wertz wrote: »

You're right, nothing wrong with people getting dressed up, having a knees up and whatever (I personally don't bother, but each to their own) and that would have been more in keeping with the spirit of the season than burning other people's property or throwing eggs at strangers.

Agreed.

kraggy

Savman wrote: »

Pfft, Halloween and Paddy's Day. When will people cop on.

Yeah, exactly.

That's why I hope the Muslims win this war of the civilisations and we can all cop on and stop drinking. I need to clean out my system. I'm sick of it. I can't take any more of this!!

Prof.Badass

The problem is there's too many laws. People really do feel oppressed to varying degrees (5 years in jail for setting off a screamer, wtf?). If you live in a nice middle class community you're probably not going to care (human nature, you're doing good so why complain?). However if you're in a working class community you may feel different.

Simple fact is if you push people around, they're going to fight back. look at the iraq war, look at the troubles up north. You can't just come over all aggressive at someone and expect them to just take it, they won't (even if they know they can't win). It's human nature to fight back. The sad thing is many people think you can just do this, and when it's doesn't work, they start pushing harder, which just makes those opposing them push harder until they damage goes up and up and up.

There's no easy solution to anti-social behaviour.

However, if you were to stop giving out unfair punishments, and focus on actual crimes where people are hurt/ their property is damaged/stolen it'd be a start.

Wertz

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Its a bit unfair to lump the honest revellers in with the scumbags, though, which is what I felt was the point being made. They are two different phenomena. If I picked that up wrong, fair enough.

Yeah I was kind of referencing a point/post of mine in another thread on halloween and decided to drag that point in here, where it didn't really suit. People staggering about in costumes aren't the problem at all.

As for what holiday has a point? Well I hate christmas as much as the next scrooge, but I love the aspects of having family and friends around that you may not have seen in a while and I like the couple of days off work for some mid winter recuperation.
Halloween doesn't exactly offer this (mid term if you're at school I 'spose) and is likely the most pointless widely celebrated holiday I can think of...our whole move toward chanelling the yanks in the last 15 yrs has placed an emphasis on the holiday that was never there previously...up till then it was just another day/weekend; now you have shops trying to pawn tat off on you for 2-3 weeks in the run up, people running around like headless chickens worrying about what they should wear to a party, antisocialness on a whole new level,and so much other uneccessary crap...wholely pointless IMO.

SimpleSam06

vinylmesh wrote: »

You can't just come over all aggressive at someone and expect them to just take it, they won't (even if they know they can't win).

First of all, this isn't a drugs discussion, trying to link anti drug laws with antisocial behaviour legislation is chalk and cheese.

Secondly, in both Iraq and the North, you're talking about occupying powers (or at least what a large amount of the population would call occupying powers) were applying pressure to society as a whole. And to be honest most of the trouble in Iraq is sectarian, they are happier to be blowing each other up than the US troops.

Antisocial behaviour legislation is our own society making it clear that some things are not acceptable. Like drink driving. In this case you aren't fighting the powah, you're fighting your neighbour.

I agree that there are too many laws, and a lot needs to be done on that front, and sentiments like ignorance of the law being no excuse fall a bit flat when laws are written in such a way that solicitors are needed to translate them into English. But they are there for a reason, and largely by the consensus of the population of this sovereign nation, so if you want change, thats who you need to convince.

Wertz wrote:

now you have shops trying to pawn tat off on you for 2-3 weeks in the run up, people running around like headless chickens worrying about what they should wear to a party, antisocialness on a whole new level,and so much other uneccessary crap

Again, the antisocialness and the costume parties are completely seperate things. One is just a bit of craic, which while unneccessary, is enjoyed by a lot of people and completely harmless, the other is a serious pain in the hole that needs to be stamped out harshly.

Wertz

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Again, the antisocialness and the costume parties are completely seperate things. One is just a bit of craic, which while unneccessary, is enjoyed by a lot of people and completely harmless, the other is a serious pain in the hole that needs to be stamped out harshly.

...and see now you're getting to the crux of it. To the scumbags dong the anti social thing, this IS their craic. You won't see these guys dressing up and painting their faces...they might wear a mask if they're up to no good, but that's about the height of it.

SimpleSam06

Wertz wrote: »

...and see now you're getting to the crux of it. To the scumbags dong the anti social thing, this IS their craic. You won't see these guys dressing up and painting their faces...they might wear a mask if they're up to no good, but that's about the height of it.

Well lets deal with the scumbags and let the regular people have their fun, so. I'll bring you to the Halloween party next year, you won't be long seeing the upside of the festival then! Assuming I'm not gone bust in this recession of course...

entropi

120_Minutes wrote: »

easier solution, lets get rid of all the idiots, so the responsible adults can have fun.

Wouldn't it be fun? but they brought in laws against that sort of thing sadly:(

Fu***rs should be put in a purpose build enclosure and made to kill each other off, the victor gets 5 mins of freedom then taken out by a sniper

Personally, Halloween (the pagan version with bonfires etc) is my fave time of year, i actually get tingles of excitement i like it so much, shame that these utter morons have to go wreck so many peoples night:mad:

Prof.Badass

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

First of all, this isn't a drugs discussion, trying to link anti drug laws with antisocial behaviour legislation is chalk and cheese.

Secondly, in both Iraq and the North, you're talking about occupying powers (or at least what a large amount of the population would call occupying powers) were applying pressure to society as a whole. And to be honest most of the trouble in Iraq is sectarian, they are happier to be blowing each other up than the US troops.

Antisocial behaviour legislation is our own society making it clear that some things are not acceptable. Like drink driving. In this case you aren't fighting the powah, you're fighting your neighbour.

I agree that there are too many laws, and a lot needs to be done on that front, and sentiments like ignorance of the law being no excuse fall a bit flat when laws are written in such a way that solicitors are needed to translate them into English. But they are there for a reason, and largely by the consensus of the population of this sovereign nation, so if you want change, thats who you need to convince.

You asked me what i thought needed to be done, and i told you. In fairness i wasn't just talking about drugs, there's loads of other such laws out there.I'm not saying these laws should neccesarily be repealed, I'm just saying we should be focusing more on crimes with actual forcibly harmed victims instead (such as this type of anti-social behaviour).

These kids aren't "fighting the power" in any structured manner, they're just acting out, in part because they feel they are treated unfairly. They're not acting in a rational manner, but they're being pushed around and thus feel the need to act out at someone, anyone they can find.

The current legal framework completely blurs the lines between anti-social behavior that harms people/damages their property and other behavior that isn't neccesarily as bad. Imo, un-blurring this line would be a step in the right direction.

SimpleSam06

vinylmesh wrote: »

These kids aren't "fighting the power" in any structured manner, they're just acting out, in part because they feel they are treated unfairly. They're not acting in a rational manner, but they're being pushed around and thus feel the need to act out at someone, anyone they can find.

Now, there you are hitting an important point. Another poster mentioned that the violence in these parts is much more of a clockwork orange random trouble sort of thing than hitting out at society in general, and I think this is very true. This isn't the normal acting out, its some sort of diseased worldview encouraged by their peers and family members. It really needs to be dealt with, for the good of everyone, including these kids.

Prof.Badass

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Now, there you are hitting an important point. Another poster mentioned that the violence in these parts is much more of a clockwork orange random trouble sort of thing than hitting out at society in general, and I think this is very true. This isn't the normal acting out, its some sort of diseased worldview encouraged by their peers and family members. It really needs to be dealt with, for the good of everyone, including these kids.

So basically you just said you agreed with that specific point i made, and then went on to say you believed the exact opposite.

Like it or not there is a reason behind their behavior (people don't do things for nothing). Now while their actions are fully unjustified, that's the way people operate when they fail to think rationally about things.

The reason these kids go overboard and damage private property/hurt people is the same reason the authorities go overboard and hand out grossly unfair punishments for certain crimes, 5 years in prison for selling fireworks being a prime example.

If both sides took a step back and thought about things rationally things would get better. Sadly, asbo's are immature teens so it's up to the government to make the first step, and in order for them to do so people like you and me need to take that step back and look at the roots of the problem instead of just stupidly saying "fight them harder", which deep down we know won't work!

m@cc@

DarkJager wrote: »

Nobody does it like the Nordies.

During a night of violence in Dublin three buildings were set alight including a factory and dozens of cars were torched.

Dublin City Council estimate the clean-up operation alone will cost close to €1m.

The emergency services dealt with fires as well as attacks on police and fire officers during the night.

Apparently yous do.

SimpleSam06

vinylmesh wrote: »

So basically you just said you agreed with that specific point i made, and then went on to say you believed the exact opposite.

No I said you hit on an important point. I didn't say that you made an important point, because you didn't.

vinylmesh wrote: »

Like it or not there is a reason behind their behavior (people don't do things for nothing).

Some people do.

vinylmesh wrote: »

The reason these kids go overboard and damage private property/hurt people is the same reason the authorities go overboard and hand out grossly unfair punishments for certain crimes

You know, it sounds like you are labouring under a 3-ton chip on your shoulder about anti drug laws. Isn't there a thread or two for that already?

vinylmesh wrote: »

people like you and me need to take that step back and look at the roots of the problem instead of just stupidly saying "fight them harder", which deep down we know won't work!

Actually I called the fire brigade on a shower of little swine lighting a bonfire in the back last night, adjoining my wall. The firemen turned the hoses on them, to the great amusement of all and sundry, and the problem went away, so fighting them harder does quite well. I daresay a shoe up the hole from their parents wouldn't go far amiss either.

I'd like to say I'm a pacifist at heart, but I'm too much of a realist for that.

Prof.Badass

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Some people do.

deep down there's a reason for everything. It may not be rational, but it's still a reason.

You know, it sounds like you are labouring under a 3-ton chip on your shoulder about anti drug laws. Isn't there a thread or two for that already?

oh, well sorry for being passionate about personal freedom, it's only the fundamental basis of democracy :rolleyes:.

Actually I called the fire brigade on a shower of little swine lighting a bonfire in the back last night, adjoining my wall. The firemen turned the hoses on them, to the great amusement of all and sundry, and the problem went away, so fighting them harder does quite well. I daresay a shoe up the hole from their parents wouldn't go far amiss either.

I somehow doubt that as a result of one action they're suddenly reformed for life:p

Calling the fire brigade was probably the right decision, but at best it's only a short term solution.

Dyr

vinylmesh wrote: »

Calling the fire brigade was probably the right decision, but at best it's only a short term solution.

spraying the little f**ks with bullets instead of water would be a long term one though :pac:

Zangetsu

Buzz kill...

Prof.Badass

Bambi wrote: »

spraying the little f**ks with bullets instead of water would be a long term one though :pac:

yeah, coz when the english tried that on us it worked a treat :rolleyes:!

Dyr

those were the tyrannical bullets of foreign oppression, I would propose that we use only the righteous bullets of harsh justice on the little scrotes.

Prof.Badass

Bambi wrote: »

those were the tyrannical bullets of foreign oppression, I would propose that we use only the righteous bullets of harsh justice on the little scrotes.

hah! coz that's working wonders in africa.