What is the point??

Dyr

DarkJager wrote: »

Maybe we need to start sterilising these scumbags?

it's sounds awful but we're well on the way to becoming a chav culture like england, how the f*ck you reverse that is beyond me.

meathstevie

Ask the NYPD and Rudy Giuliani how you do it. You basicly deny the the scrotes any leeway to get up to their ****e.

Prof.Badass

There is definately an air of lawlessness on halloween night, this is at least in part due to the illegality of fireworks (they're already risking ":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:5 years in prison:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:" so why not do other crimes that actually have a less severe punishment aswell?

Not to mention bonfires and underage drinking.

By having more realistic laws that give the kids some freedom, and allow for some fun, we might not find ourselves with as big a problem.

e.g legal to use fireworks, illegal to aim at people/traffic/private property.

downsize dangerous bonfires instead of putting them out. ect.

If the authorities deliberately make themselves an enemy of the young they can expect to have a fight on their hands.

meathstevie

Problem with fireworks is that they're essentially relatively low yield explosives. I wouldn't deem it a wise move to have them freely available.

Ok, you need a couple of thightly packed container loads of them if you wanted to set up Canary Warf II but in the wrong hands they could do some serious damage, and they do. That's why a licenced fireworks company has to have storage bunkers, alarmed premises, detailed inventories etc... . Just like for example an engineering company or a mining company involved in blasting does. Just like owners of legally held firearms and ammunition need licences and safe storage and are vetted by AGS.

Having said that you are making a very valid point for a law to be making sense it has to be enforcable and realistic. A diarrhea of thick unenforcable criminal laws doesn't serve anyone. It wastes police time, clogs up the courts and discredits sensible law.

Howitzer

Very disappointing to hear that there was so much chaos and harm caused last night. The clean up comes out of everyone's pocket. Some of the injuries to emergency services sound pretty severe and will be something each individual will carry for life.

Each firework you hear is a law being broken - I sometimes think it's representative of the laws that you can't hear being broken (if ya get me).

The emergency services should all be armed to a degree. Fire services should be trained to overcome/withstand the attacks they are experiencing in recent years. They should also be allowed use their engine / hose as a water cannon.

Our young people need to get proud and not behave like this. There can still be a bit of mischief at hallowe'en - but 'cause no harm' should be the overriding message.

Asbo culture has to stop. Asbo culture must stop.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Howitzer wrote: »

Asbo culture has to stop. Asbo culture must stop.

Damn it, man! What are you trying to say????

Caoimhín

I think guns should be freely available to everybody.

Have a right auld shootout to clear out the scum.

Who decides exactly what defines someone as a scumbag is the problem.

Prof.Badass

meathstevie wrote: »

Problem with fireworks is that they're essentially relatively low yield explosives. I wouldn't deem it a wise move to have them freely available.

Ok, you need a couple of thightly packed container loads of them if you wanted to set up Canary Warf II but in the wrong hands they could do some serious damage, and they do. That's why a licenced fireworks company has to have storage bunkers, alarmed premises, detailed inventories etc... . Just like for example an engineering company or a mining company involved in blasting does. Just like owners of legally held firearms and ammunition need licences and safe storage and are vetted by AGS.

Having said that you are making a very valid point for a law to be making sense it has to be enforcable and realistic. A diarrhea of thick unenforcable criminal laws doesn't serve anyone. It wastes police time, clogs up the courts and discredits sensible law.

Anyone with the dedication to make a bomb out of fireworks could easily make a better one out of other cheap, more easily obtainable materials.

tbh i don't think fireworks are as bad as you're making them out to be. You can allow the use of fireworks but still punish the antisocial use of them, Also you could have extra restrictions on those that do not have a licence (e.g no fireworks over a certain size).

Several countries have legal fireworks and do not complain about it.

Some "crimes" are worse that others. Deep down we all know there's a huge difference between setting off a screamer and beating someone up. You have to pick your battles. If people feel oppressed they will fight back and the more aggressive you are, the more they'll fight back(especially people involed in "asbo culture").

I think the perception of some people as "scumbags" is part of the problem, there's obviously a crime culture, which most would say is growing (this may or may not be true). I think if we gave people more space and only focused on the laws that really matter (causing harm to others + their property), people would have less of an excuse to involve themselves in crime. These people are not blameless (far from it) but they're fighting a battle. If someone is pushing you around it's human nature to push back, especially if you're percieved as being at the bottom of the social pile.

btw, for the record I'm not blaming society,we're pretty much blameless. I'm blaming our nanny state style of governance.

Terry

Redpunto wrote: »

Halloween is for the kids to go trick or treating, kids around here had a great tme getting dressed up and calling round the houses and eating vast amounts of sugar:D

Scumbags are scumbags, they re just waiting for any excuse to act like f*cking eijjits, its not Halloween itself causing the problems.

That's just it.
We had bonfires every year without much trouble. The only trouble we ever had was others trying to steal our bonfire and when we tried to steal from others. Once it was lit everyone came together and sat around drinking beer and watching the fireworks go off. Anyone acting th bollix was swiftly dealt with.

Biggins wrote: »

At first on hearing of the destruction and harm done to those that only are there for our own good, my reaction was to send in the army, arm the Gardi and get out the riot squads.

On further contemplation however that would NOT be of practicable use. It didn't work for Northern Ireland when there was trouble up there so there's probably no way it would work elsewhere.

What's the answer? Good question.
I do have a suggestion though.

On such holiday periods or upcoming times when there is likely to be trouble on the streets a curfew system should be introduced.
Children (unless accompanied by an adult of a certain age) should be off our streets by set out hours according to their respective ages.

Where there is serious trouble, the Gardi should have the appropriate powers to immediately call for a complete zone close down where everyone gets off the streets and is told to stay indoors.
If anyone is caught after that outside they pay a price for their actions.
In the case of teenagers, they should be picked up, detained and hauled before the courts (with their parents) to explain why they were blatantly breaking the curfew law. If found that they don't have a justifiable excuse (such as medical emergencies or death in the family, etc) they are given a fine and/or an award of "crime points" similar to the car punishment system.
With the adding out of such points, at a certain level the parents lose their parental benefits/money they they are currently claiming off the state.
The reasoning and justification behind this is simple - if they don't give a frak about taking care of their kids, controlling them and/or instilling a modicum of decency in them, why should the state be paying good money to the parents for a job they are clearly not doing as the "crime points" add up indicating so!
Hit them where it hurts - in their wallets. See how will useless lazy parents react to their kids actions when their own kids actions makes them lose their money which pays for their extra drink and cigs, etc!

The above is just one brief explained measure but its a possible start.
We have to start somewhere and in should be in the home!

..and by the way, I'm a parent of three, soon to be four.
If my kids ever do what the scum have done last night on our streets, they won't get to court ...because I promise you, I will have before then kicked the living **** out of them ...and they know that right now!

Not all scumbags are teenagers. Quite a lot are older.
It was a guy in his late 30's/ early 40 who stabbed me one night.

Biggins wrote: »

Seriously, would you go wandering around the equivalent of a warzone with bombs, missiles or any other crap flying flying?
If you have half a brain and not want to get named or be seen to be involved, you'd get your ass out out the trouble spot if you have any kop on!

Liverpool fan?

meathstevie wrote: »

Ask the NYPD and Rudy Giuliani how you do it. You basicly deny the the scrotes any leeway to get up to their ****e.

They just moved the problem away from the tourist spots.


The only way forward is proper sentencing and stricter prisons.
Fúck the left wing hippies and their leniency on criminals.

meathstevie

New York was and is a bit more fundamental than that. I don't have any figures to hand but serious crime rates all over the NYPD jurisdiction has seriously decreased with the zero tolerance policy. What it realy boils down to is that petty crime is nipped in the bud before it growns into a bigger problem. What you need for that in my books is a BIG STICK and an even BIGGER CARROT.

That means a well kitted out and staffed police force and a heap of investment in second chance education, early school leaver programs, addiction treatment clinics etc, etc,...
It's probably expensive but criminal damage and keeping someone in prison isn't exactly cheap either.

sdanseo

Steyr wrote: »

Arm the Gardai.

I said it in another thread, I'll say it again. Rubber bullets, fire at will

Simple answer - anyone lighting a bonfire or launching fireworks or drinking in public gets a €500 fine, no questions. Give it a year, problem solved.

sprinklesspanky

Personally, I can't shrug off "millions of euros"... especially considering that right now our government is making cut backs in heath care and education to keep the country from going solvent.

Like it's been said, every St. Patrick's Day and Halloween we as a country have to deal with this. Does anyone agree with me that this March 17th we should have the defense forces out in full riot gear with orders to put down (using non-lethal means) anyone who doesn't respond to a warning?

Ross_Mahon

Where was Superman to save the day?

sprinklesspanky

meathstevie wrote: »

Ask the NYPD and Rudy Giuliani how you do it. You basicly deny the the scrotes any leeway to get up to their ****e.

There isn't a chav culture in the United States, no organised hoolganism. In the U.S. you have lots of gang crime, mostly drug related or random violence.

Giuliani was famous for "cleaning up" Times Square by moving the hookers and pimps a few blocks away and cracking down on muggers and drug dealers.

Here at home and in the U.K. we have a very Clockwork Orange mentailty of violence for the sake of violence not violence for the sake of profit. It's a different animal completely IMHO. How do you deal with a bully? You call thier bluff.

When I lived in Cork on many occasions knackers would harrass myself and my group of friends. My friend's response was to ignore it, keep thier head down and walk on. "Oh don't encourage them, you'll end up with a brick through your window, blah blah blah". Not me, I have always ****ed with them right back. I don't care if there is a group of them. I carry a razor and I let it know that if I go down I am taking some eyes and teeth with me. This is usually enough to get them to move on. They look for an easy target, anyone who is going to put up a fight is not worth it to them.

Terry

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I said it in another thread, I'll say it again. Rubber bullets, fire at will

Simple answer - anyone lighting a bonfire or launching fireworks or drinking in public gets a €500 fine, no questions. Give it a year, problem solved.

Screw you and your no bonfire policy.
Some of my best childhood memories involve me collecting stuff for a bonfire and then sitting around it on a damp chair and drinking beer ANd then doing some drunk chick.
How dare you try to take that away from the youth of today?

sprinklesspanky wrote: »

Personally, I can't shrug off "millions of euros"... especially considering that right now our government is making cut backs in heath care and education to keep the country from going solvent.

Like it's been said, every St. Patrick's Day and Halloween we as a country have to deal with this. Does anyone agree with me that this March 17th we should have the defense forces out in full riot gear with orders to put down (using non-lethal means) anyone who doesn't respond to a warning?

In every town in the country?
I don't think we have that big an army.
Well there's thaT AND THE FACT THAT WE DON'T LIVE IN A POLICE STATE.
Apologies or the caps lock. using a laptop and too lazy to fix my mistakes.

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

Where was Superman to save the day?

Indiscriminately murdering some Palestinians.


At the end of the day it boils down to parenting.
If your kids mess up, the both you as a parent and your child should be heavily penalised.
Either a very large fine or prison or both.
Also, we really need to sort out the prison system.
Some dick recently did only two and a half hours for not paying a €1300 Euro fine. It's a complete joke.

sdanseo

Terry wrote: »

Screw you and your no bonfire policy.
Some of my best childhood memories involve me collecting stuff for a bonfire and then sitting around it on a damp chair and drinking beer ANd then doing some drunk chick.
How dare you try to take that away from the youth of today?

Lovely memories I'm sure, but it's a completely different socio-economic climate now.

Bonfires are illegal already anyway. I'm taking nothing.

johnnyrotten

vinylmesh wrote: »

downsize dangerous bonfires instead of putting them out. ect.

If the authorities deliberately make themselves an enemy of the young they can expect to have a fight on their hands.

The fire brigade don't put out bonfires unless they are threatning life or property

SimpleSam06

Wertz wrote: »

Sad that an ancient celtic celebration of the end of the harvest and looking forward to hard winter time ahead gets hijacked by modern society as a means to either wallow in childish fantasy and flagrant exhibitionism

Erm just on a point of interest here, I threw a pretty decent halloween party last night and I would just like to say I'm solidly in favour of flagrant exhibitionism. I'm sure the ancients Celts would be too.

Besides, its not the holiday, its the asbos. Most people here had very good halloween experiences long before that subculture started to grow, theres nothing inherent to the occasion that makes it dangerous.

Anyway, its not like you can ban it.

meathstevie wrote: »

That means a well kitted out and staffed police force and a heap of investment in second chance education, early school leaver programs, addiction treatment clinics etc, etc,...

No, you're dealing with the symptoms, not the cause. While it might have a limited effect, long term you need a better answer.

sprinklesspanky wrote: »

Here at home and in the U.K. we have a very Clockwork Orange mentailty of violence for the sake of violence not violence for the sake of profit. It's a different animal completely IMHO.

Exactly right. The main problem here I would say is that their parents not only don't correct their behaviour, they in some cases actively encourage it. These are the same people you'll see sitting in front of a fifty inch plasma screen drinking cider on welfare. If you want to terrorise them into action, you need to fine them for every time their little tykes pull a stunt.

All it would take is a mobile phone or video recording of a face, and bam, thats a thousand euro fine to their legal guardians. Streamline the process (assuming there is evidence) so there's little chance to fight it. A few of those and they'll sit up and start to take notice. The guards wouldn't even need to detain them, just take them home and write out the address.

In the case of repeat offenders, they could then be entered into the correctional system, but not before mammy and daddy have had to flog the flatscreen.

Might go some way towards solving our economic problems as well.

Fighting Irish

scumbags yes, but the gov do just as bad things if not worse

Terry

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Lovely memories I'm sure, but it's a completely different socio-economic climate now.

Bonfires are illegal already anyway. I'm taking nothing.

Cars were still being burned out when I was 15. Christ, I'm not thAt old. It was only 17 years ago.
It just never happened where I live because we didn't allow it happen.

There is an ever increasing number of teenage scum in Leixlip at the moment, but it still doesn't happen where I live. It's all down to a close community and actually getting to know your neighbours and kicking the crap out of scumbags before they get the chance to cross the line.
I'm a double hard bastard.

sdanseo

Terry wrote: »

Cars were still being burned out when I was 15. Christ, I'm not thAt old. It was only 17 years ago.
It just never happened where I live because we didn't allow it happen.

There is an ever increasing number of teenage scum in Leixlip at the moment, but it still doesn't happen where I live. It's all down to a close community and actually getting to know your neighbours and kicking the crap out of scumbags before they get the chance to cross the line.
I'm a double hard bastard.

I agree. But where that doesn't happen, the scum need to be hammered in a way that's fair for everyone. Unfortunately there's going to be a bit of fun lost for the law abiding people who play with fire responsibly on Halloween, but it's the only way short of having a close knit community absolutely everywhere - which will never happen 100% tbh.

Terry

Welcome to the new Ireland (not tio be confused with that islan North or Australia).
I was talking to a cop recently and he told me that he had never spoken to his neighbours.

It really is a shame that the close communities that once existed across the country are now gone.

I blame the new monied people and their snobbish attitudes.

SimpleSam06

sdonn_1 wrote: »

the scum need to be hammered in a way that's fair for everyone.

Why?

sdanseo

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Why?

I'm surprised you need to ask. To prevent scum, hammer them. Has to be fair though - can't have a law for scumbags and not for people with brains because apparently its unconstitutional :rolleyes:

SimpleSam06

sdonn_1 wrote: »

can't have a law for scumbags and not for people with brains

Yes, you can. Screw "dangerous precedent", and screw the scumbags.

Prof.Badass

sdonn_1 wrote: »

Simple answer - anyone lighting a bonfire or launching fireworks or drinking in public gets a €500 fine, no questions. Give it a year, problem solved.

+1.

It's all about being aggressive and asserting your authority!

Start giving people grossly unfair punishments. like actually fuck up their lives completely for the tiniest of offences and pretty soon they'll start towing the line.


For example back in the 70's we had a small drug problem, so we started really coming down hard on these druggies. fast forward to today, problem sorted.......

........ oh, wait...:D

sdanseo

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Yes, you can. Screw "dangerous precedent", and screw the scumbags.

vinylmesh wrote: »

+1.

It's all about being aggressive and asserting your authority!

Start giving people grossly unfair punishments. like actually fuck up their lives completely for the tiniest of offences and pretty soon they'll start towing the line.


For example back in the 70's we had a small drug problem, so we started really coming down hard on these druggies. fast forward to today, problem sorted.......

........ oh, wait...:D

Well, any better suggestions, either of you? :rolleyes:

SimpleSam06

vinylmesh wrote: »

For example back in the 70's we had a small drug problem, so we started really coming down hard on these druggies. fast forward to today, problem sorted.......

........ oh, wait...:D

The way you talk laws have never had any effect on any activity, which is why there are cockfights on every street corner at the moment. Lighting bonfires and fireworks is not a physically addictive activity. In any case I have no real objections to either. I'd even go so far as to provide special locations where people could enjoy a bonfire or fireworks show. They aren't the problem. Its the asbos we need to sort out.

Prof.Badass

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

The way you talk laws have never had any effect on any activity, which is why there are cockfights on every street corner at the moment. Lighting bonfires and fireworks is not a physically addictive activity. In any case I have no real objections to either. I'd even go so far as to provide special locations where people could enjoy a bonfire or fireworks show. They aren't the problem. Its the asbos we need to sort out.

Cockfights are not around as much because of they've gone out of fashion, most people would now agree they are cruel. However there is a small demand for them still, and as a result they do still go on in dublin.

SimpleSam06

vinylmesh wrote: »

Cockfights are not around as much because of they've gone out of fashion, most people would now agree they are cruel. However there is a small demand for them still, and as a result they do still go on in dublin.

So the fact that its illegal had nothing whatsoever to do with it? And would you say that firing fireworks at passing traffic is more or less conspicuous than a cockfight in a dingy basement, or say snorting a line of coke in a nightclub cubicle?