M3 fast?

JoeA3

This is a serious question, bear with me! My own daily driver is a MKV Golf GTI. Its a reasonably quick car, but no rocket-ship by any stretch I'm sure most would agree.

I had an opportunity to take a spin in an M3 over the weekend, and I really expected to be blown away, to be sucked into the seat once I put the boot down :pac:

But oddly, I didn't think it felt that fast! I gave it serious welly, and other than the glorious noise, it didn't feel appreciably quicker than my own car. Yeah, it seemed like it could go and go, but I thought the acceleration wasn't as brutal as I expected.

And before anyone asks, it was a real M3 and I wasn't towing a caravan :pac:

Anan1

That's God telling you it's time to change over to motorbikes.;)

cashmni1

What was the year of the M3?
What was the mileage?
Was it driven hard or abused by the last owner? (or is the general condition of the car good or bad?)
And finally, what did you rev it to exactly?

JoeA3

It was a '04, the last model. Relatively low miles on it, excellent condtion.

I didn't rev the absolute nuts off it, its owner was sitting next to me! But I gave it a good bit of welly, say 6-7000rpm. There were orange lights on the rev-counter indicating how far was safe to rev it. It was warmed up before I took it out.

I'm pretty sure the answer is down to turbo-charged versus non-turbo, different type of power delivery, etc.

Lumen

Modern engineering regrettably means that increases in power are usually compensated for by "improved" chassis dynamics.

When I test drove a Boxster S a few years ago I was amazed at how slow it felt compared to my expectations (I owned an MX5 at the time). Speed was only apparent from the scenery blurring.

If you want a lesson is maximum sphincter clenching per horsepower, try a TVR Griffith 500 in the wet. A friend of mine has one, and it feels like it's about to kill you, all the time. Glorious.

cashmni1

Yip, you need a Bike!
Seriously though.
Maybe your expectations were too high.
I reciently drove a Toyota Supra (3.0 twin turbo) jap import with aprox 80k on the clock. The ultimate boy racer. It was even white in colour!!
I think it was close to 350+ bhp (or so the new owner claims).
It was fast, very fast, but I didn't think it was as fast as I thought it was going to be, the way the new owner was bragging about it.
I just put it down to high milage (mostly because I could smell burning oil when I got out), and i told the owner that it was one of the fastest cars I had ever driven.
It was far from that though. I have driven a street rod in the states that could do the quater mile in the high 12 low 13 seconds. That was fast.
I have also been (on the back of) some really quick bikes too. Real fast.
So my expectations were distorted by this proud new owner of a worn out Supra. Fast yes, real fast, unfortunately, no.
The M3 could have fallen into the same trap for you. BTW, GTI's aren't that slow either.

Bandara

for me the M3s beauty is the fact its very fast and feels solid as fock as well.

The japs cars and the smaller fast cars can feel all over the place and death seems only a conrner away. The M3 for me feels so safe

Top Dog

The only expierence I've had of an E46 M3 was a passenger lap of the Nurburgring. Yes, it was fast, but totally underwhelming to me. It was even slightly breathed upon (AC Schnitzer exhaust and remapped ECU). My comparison at the time was a Sunny GTI-R. The BMW was so effortless that I never felt pushed back into the seat, the only real indicators of the speed were the speedo and the faster blurring of the scenery. I put it down to the more linear power delivery of an NA engine, because it was smoother it didn't feel as fast. The Sunny on the other hand felt manic, the turbo shoving you nicely into the seat giving that "hang on" feeling. So while the Sunny felt faster, the BMW was really the faster of the 2.

Kinda reminded me of a passenger ride in a nicely tuned Audi S3. Again it was more modern machinery so the turbo kick was almost un-noticed and it felt like an NA engine which definitely left me disappointed. With a proven 300+ bhp in a relatively small turbo-charged car, I was expecting it to be manic in the same way as the aforementioned Sunny. But in reality it felt more similar to the E46 in the way it put the power down and accelerated.

Cyrus

JoeA3 wrote: »

This is a serious question, bear with me! My own daily driver is a MKV Golf GTI. Its a reasonably quick car, but no rocket-ship by any stretch I'm sure most would agree.

I had an opportunity to take a spin in an M3 over the weekend, and I really expected to be blown away, to be sucked into the seat once I put the boot down :pac:

But oddly, I didn't think it felt that fast! I gave it serious welly, and other than the glorious noise, it didn't feel appreciably quicker than my own car. Yeah, it seemed like it could go and go, but I thought the acceleration wasn't as brutal as I expected.

And before anyone asks, it was a real M3 and I wasn't towing a caravan :pac:

to be fair an m3 is pretty docile at lower revs, if its fully warm and you give it the full beans in every gear itll leave your gti in its dust

that said turbo delivery versus n/a is a lot different, i remember my remapped mkiv gti felt much faster than the bmw 530i that replaced, but it wasnt, in fact it wasnt even close

JoeA3

Cyrus wrote: »

to be fair an m3 is pretty docile at lower revs, if its fully warm and you give it the full beans in every gear itll leave your gti in its dust

that said turbo delivery versus n/a is a lot different, i remember my remapped mkiv gti felt much faster than the bmw 530i that replaced, but it wasnt, in fact it wasnt even close

Oh yeah, I'm not for a second suggesting that the GTI could ever keep pace with it (it's no 1.9TDI RS4!)

Its just down to two very different power deliveries I guess. Although that said, the MKV GTI delivers fairly linear acceleration through the gears, there's no big kick-in-the-backside from the turbo like there is in some turbo'd motors.

Cyrus

well the mkv gti is a quick car (most make more than the 200bhp claimed) so while a m3 is faster its not as big a difference as going from say a 1.4 litre golf to a gti.

maybe you were expecting too much?

Try a ducati:p

JoeA3

Cyrus wrote: »

maybe you were expecting too much?

Try a ducati:p

:pac:
Not sure what I was expecting really, a more mental, seat of the pants car I suppose. What's the bhp output in an E46 (?) M3?

For comparison, I also recently had a short spin in an Audi S6 (current model) - now that did blow me away, an amazing car, absolutely incredible acceleration, it sounded incredible too. But with a 5.2 V10 430bhp engine, it was bound to be good!

Cyrus

m3 is 343bhp, 0-60 claimed at 4.8 sec more like just over 5 for a normal person!

so spose a gti to m3 would be like an m3 to an rs6

Biro

Definately it's partly due to the competence of the car and partly down to the linear power delivery. Sometimes RWD cars don't feel as quick as similar powered FWD either for some reason. Turbo FWD cars can give the feeling of power in a bit of an over magnified way. That's why all "chipped TDi" drivers are fooled into thinking they're in a much quicker car because of the "all of a sudden" way of delivering the power.
The E46 kinda underwhelmed me a lot too. With these cars though where you really notice the performance is the wrong side of the legal limit. Bury the shoe at 90mph and watch it move more or less the same way the Golf moves from 50mph.
I really think you need to go over 600 bhp to be really frightened at the right foot movement.
Also, as the others said, don't underestimate the Golf either. It has 2 thirds the power of the M3, so you're really getting a 35% increase. Scale it down and that's like going from 100bhp to 135bhp. (not really, but similar!)

galwaytt

For comparison, to show just how slow ALL cars are, there used to be an old Kawasaki ad, for the then-current GPz600R (biker's on here will now how old that is !! ), ....they advertised it would go 0-60-0....in 5 secs.

That was 20 years ago. A modern would just have you ****ting bricks....

pclancy

You've got to love that BMW engine roar though I love both Golfs and the e46's, even the 1.6 petrol standard golf had a lot of oomph...but it doesnt sound anything like a beemer's growl above 5000rpm My 94 e36 makes me smile every time i put my foot down, they're just awesome engines.

Biro

galwaytt wrote: »

For comparison, to show just how slow ALL cars are, there used to be an old Kawasaki ad, for the then-current GPz600R (biker's on here will now how old that is !! ), ....they advertised it would go 0-60-0....in 5 secs.

That was 20 years ago. A modern would just have you ****ting bricks....

Superbikes are fast for sure. Autocar always use one as a benchmark in their 0-100-0 tests every year. The bike was always top of the list (think it's a race prepp'd GSX1000-R) until the Bugatti came along! I think the Atom 300 beat the bike too and I'm not sure about the Caterham 500. But that's the level you need to be at.

unkel

Biro wrote: »

don't underestimate the Golf either. It has 2 thirds the power of the M3, so you're really getting a 35% increase.

You need to use a calculator in future

Gatster

I had a 265 bhp Prodrive Impreza and went shopping for an 330ci/ E46 M3/E39 M5 last time around but ended up with the 330 (cost, day to day driving conditions etc etc. [but mainly cost!!!])

Only the M5 came close to 'feeling' as quick in all situations on the test drive...the 330ci didn't feel anywhere near my Impreza at first but now after 8 months I actually realise how quick it is in comparision to most cars on the road in 'normal' situations (I just took it for granted that the Impreza was nearly unbeatable!) and it's close enough to the Impreza, but probably better all round (apart from fuel consumption & tax :mad:).

My point is I can imagine the reverse of how Cyrus feels with his 530-M3...a test drive isn't enough to get a 'feel' for the relative merits (speed, handling, comfort, whatever) of a car.

Saying all this, I was seriously contemplating getting back into bikes last week when I saw a 2004 CBR600RR for a very attractive price - credit crunch nonsense, and massive insurance for returning bikers probably...

macnab

I have an M5 for the last 6 months, '02 model, it feels faster and faster every time i drive it, i think BMW's are all like this, it takes a while to learn how to get the most from them. But my CBR600 still feels quicker.....

Plug

pclancy wrote: »

You've got to love that BMW engine roar though I love both Golfs and the e46's, even the 1.6 petrol standard golf had a lot of oomph...but it doesnt sound anything like a beemer's growl above 5000rpm My 94 e36 makes me smile every time i put my foot down, they're just awesome engines.

Nothing like the sound of a staright six engine. Nicest sound ever! Saddly the most power I've expeirenced was that of a 1.4 golf when my father is mad. hopefully some day I can buy a beamer.

Plug

unkel wrote: »

You need to use a calculator in future

41.65%, I didn't even use a calculater!

KTRIC

Once you go bike you never go back

I had a Honda CBR900RR before I left Ireland and sweet f*ck was it fast. I've been in / on various things since and nothing compares.

unkel

Plug wrote: »

41.65%, I didn't even use a calculater!

My point was that you should have used one

343bhp is 71.5% more than 200bhp

E92

Plug wrote: »

Nothing like the sound of a staright six engine.

They are superb, now that they can offer V8 performance but 50 mpg in the 330d and still make a great noise, it's not hard to see why the future is still very bright for the classical BMW 6 cylinder engine. When BMW bring out auto start stop to their 6 cylinder models next year the mpg gap will be even tighter, giving even more excuses to get a BMW with the proper 6 cylinder engine.

4 cyl BMWs are good but they're nowhere near as good as a 6 cyl BMW.

A 6 cyl makes a good car a brilliant one, yes those extra 2 cylinders make a BIG difference to whether you've bought a very good car, or something that's really special.

Climate Expert

I was in a GTI there last weekend and coming from a TDI passat I was quite underwhelmed. The initial kick and whoosh in teh back wasn't as hard but it did keep accelerating and more linearly. I just like that kick though myself.

jimbling

wow, I just can't believe that anyone can be underwhelmed by an e46 M3. Are you mad? :pac:

I've driven my fair share of relatively fast cars.
01 Octavia vRS (180bhp)
06 Golf GTI (200bhp)
07 Audi A4 Special Edition quattro (220bhp)
08 Audi A5 3.0TDI (240bhp)
05 Subaru Impreza WRX STI (272bhp)
04 Nissan 350Z (290bhp)

Obviously the M3 doesn't have the gut wrenching turbo pull as some of those cars (specifically the impreza), but it is without a doubt the nicest ride I've ever driven in it. The power is almost endless, and it just feels and sounds spectacular.
If all you're interested in is the turbo pull just get one of the big diesels :pac: :pac:

I've also driven quite a few quick bikes. I currently have a Harley VRSCA. Now they're no superbike, but they're still 0-60 in 3 seconds. Obviously it feels a hell of a lot faster than any car...... but the M3 is still my favourite ride yet. Maybe it's because it's new and I spent a fortune on it :rolleyes:

omega man

I recently had a E46 M3 (NI reg) pull out from behind to come along side me at the lights. Driver was reving her up looking over at me and when the lights went green he floored it. Now in fairness there were 3 lads in the M3 but im sure he was a bit red faced when a little Mazda 3 (MPS) kept side by side with him up to about 100kmph (legal of course) until he pulled off a slip road as he couldnt get in front of me (he was in the wrong lane and had his indicator on). I love the E46 M3 and i assume it was just bad driving on his part but i got a kick out of that one

Biro

unkel wrote: »

My point was that you should have used one

343bhp is 71.5% more than 200bhp

True, but a Golf has just a little less than 2 thirds the power of an M3 at the same time.
Good old rusty arithmatic.

jimbling

omega man wrote: »

I recently had a E46 M3 (NI reg) pull out from behind to come along side me at the lights. Driver was reving her up looking over at me and when the lights went green he floored it. Now in fairness there were 3 lads in the M3 but im sure he was a bit red faced when a little Mazda 3 (MPS) kept side by side with him up to about 100kmph (legal of course) until he pulled off a slip road as he couldnt get in front of me (he was in the wrong lane and had his indicator on). I love the E46 M3 and i assume it was just bad driving on his part but i got a kick out of that one

well, to be fair.. the MPS is a really quick car. There's about 1s difference in the 0-60. he had 3 guys in the car... so to be honest, it doesn't really surprise me that you kept up with him.

Note: In saying that... still funny as hell.. he musta been very flustered.

Biro

jimbling wrote: »

wow, I just can't believe that anyone can be underwhelmed by an e46 M3. Are you mad? :pac:

I've driven my fair share of relatively fast cars.
01 Octavia vRS (180bhp)
06 Golf GTI (200bhp)
07 Audi A4 Special Edition quattro (220bhp)
08 Audi A5 3.0TDI (240bhp)
05 Subaru Impreza WRX STI (272bhp)
04 Nissan 350Z (290bhp)

Obviously the M3 doesn't have the gut wrenching turbo pull as some of those cars (specifically the impreza), but it is without a doubt the nicest ride I've ever driven in it. The power is almost endless, and it just feels and sounds spectacular.
If all you're interested in is the turbo pull just get one of the big diesels :pac: :pac:

I've also driven quite a few quick bikes. I currently have a Harley VRSCA. Now they're no superbike, but they're still 0-60 in 3 seconds. Obviously it feels a hell of a lot faster than any car...... but the M3 is still my favourite ride yet. Maybe it's because it's new and I spent a fortune on it :rolleyes:

We're not necessarily knocking the M3 here though, as obviously there's far more to a car than acceleration, or even that fake feeling of acceleration that turbo diesels give. Just commenting on a car that doesn't feel as fast as it actually is.
@Omega man - don't underestimate the MPS either!

Climate Expert

or even that fake feeling of acceleration that turbo diesels give.

Nothing fake about it. In physical terms they have more peak acelleration which feels better espcecially when you are driving on roads and don't want to be hitting 100mph in 12 seconds.

Henry Ford III

Climate Expert wrote: »

I was in a GTI there last weekend and coming from a TDI passat I was quite underwhelmed. The initial kick and whoosh in teh back wasn't as hard but it did keep accelerating and more linearly. I just like that kick though myself.

I think you are confusing power and torque maybe.

Climate Expert

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I think you are confusing power and torque maybe.

No we're talking about acceleration here. The stuff that makes your body feel force, f=m x a. A lot of fairly average turbo diesels give greater acceleration and greater force. Overall slower to accelerate to high speeds but they still feel faster in this way.
Might be over your head Henry.

Biro

Climate Expert wrote: »

Nothing fake about it. In physical terms they have more peak acelleration which feels better espcecially when you are driving on roads and don't want to be hitting 100mph in 12 seconds.

It's fake when one car "feels" almost as quick as another, yet the other can do the 0-60 run in 4 seconds less!
Peak acceleration serves only to fool people who don't know any better! For everyday lazy or uninterested drivers it's ideal, cause they just touch the acclerator and hey presto there's 90% of the cars mediocre power.

Climate Expert

Biro wrote: »

For everyday lazy or uninterested drivers it's ideal,.

Yep who wants to go 0-60 in 4 seconds on a public road anyway.

Lumen

Turbodiesels do give a false sense of acceleration, because it is not sustained.

My 2.2 turbodiesel makes my stomach go weird in second gear acceleration, but takes more than 10s to get to 100kph (and that reflects its true performance, believe me).

My fastest N/A petrol car did 0-100 in under 4 seconds, but never gave me that "stomach lurch" from the acceleration.

Ferris

Biro wrote: »

It's fake when one car "feels" almost as quick as another, yet the other can do the 0-60 run in 4 seconds less!

In my book how a car makes me "feel" is the most important thing. I'm not interested in racing skylines away from the lights however.

Driving my mates 106GTI a few years back was unreal as all the car was was a small revvy engine in a tiny light car with brilliant brakes and suspension, now that felt quick.:D

Biro

Climate Expert wrote: »

Yep who wants to go 0-60 in 4 seconds on a public road anyway.

If you'd care to re-read my post I said 4 seconds less. As in a GTI Golf does the 0 to 60 run in nearly 4 seconds less time than a Passat 130 TDI for example. That's significantly quicker, regardless of how either car feels for the driver or passenger.

Biro

Ferris wrote: »

In my book how a car makes me "feel" is the most important thing. I'm not interested in racing skylines away from the lights however.

Driving my mates 106GTI a few years back was unreal as all the car was was a small revvy engine in a tiny light car with brilliant brakes and suspension, now that felt quick.:D

We're solely talking about acceleration feel here. 106 GTi is a legend FWD car, but that's a whole other conversation about handling etc.
I remember a conversation once where a guy claimed "TDi is faster than GTi" his reasoning was that his Toledo 90bhp diesel was quicker than his mates 106GTI. In both cases he was wrong, the Toledo might have felt faster, but it was neither faster nor better than the 106 from an enthusiast driver's point of view.

Climate Expert

As in a GTI Golf does the 0 to 60 run in nearly 4 seconds less time than a Passat 130 TDI for example.

Its 3 seconds for only the quickest of GTIs.

Biro

Climate Expert wrote: »

Its 3 seconds for only the quickest of GTIs.

6.9 seconds is still a lot brisker than 9.8 seconds.

Lumen

Climate Expert wrote: »

Yep who wants to go 0-60 in 4 seconds on a public road anyway.

I'm not sure whether you're being ironically rhetorical or not.

Why wouldn't you want to go 0-60 (mph presumably) in four seconds?

It may not be possible in many situations, but that doesn't make it any less fun or occasionally useful (for instance, when pulling out of a petrol station onto a 100kph road).

Ferris

Biro wrote: »

We're solely talking about acceleration feel here. 106 GTi is a legend FWD car, but that's a whole other conversation about handling etc.
I remember a conversation once where a guy claimed "TDi is faster than GTi" his reasoning was that his Toledo 90bhp diesel was quicker than his mates 106GTI. In both cases he was wrong, the Toledo might have felt faster, but it was neither faster nor better than the 106 from an enthusiast driver's point of view.

My point still is that when a car feels fast what more point is there, actual acceleration is pointless outside of motor racing. If you can get that thrill from a 1.6 with low tax, insurance etc whats the point in shelling out for a 3.2 M3.

I do love the M3 however, as a package its a great car.

Bandara

Climate Expert wrote: »

Yep who wants to go 0-60 in 4 seconds on a public road anyway.

I would.

I really really really would love to have a car that could do 0-60 in 4 seconds.

Lumen

Ferris wrote: »

My point still is that when a car feels fast what more point is there, actual acceleration is pointless outside of motor racing. If you can get that thrill from a 1.6 with low tax, insurance etc whats the point in shelling out for a 3.2 M3.

Because there are many routes up Mount Motoring Nirvana.

Most performance road cars are completely pointless from a practical transportation perspective, but people buy them because they are lovely things and can be enjoyed at mostly legal speeds (and higher on race circuits).

Climate Expert

Lumen wrote: »

Because there are many routes up Mount Motoring Nirvana.

Most performance road cars are completely pointless from a practical transportation perspective, but people buy them because they are lovely things and can be enjoyed at mostly legal speeds (and higher on race circuits).

They can't be enjoyed without breaking the law on our roads. I would find owning one incredibly frustrating.

Lumen

Climate Expert wrote: »

They can't be enjoyed without breaking the law on our roads. I would find owning one incredibly frustrating.

Then you are self-harming through your ignorance.

The most accelerative car I've owned didn't go much over 100mph, as it had the aerodynamics of a brick and less than 140bhp. It did 0-60mph in about 4 seconds (some said 3.8, I never tried to measure it).

It was utterly fantastic at completely legal speeds, and felt much even faster than it was (it shamefully made my 9 year old stepson bawl when I took him out in it, and I wasn't even trying).

And then there are track days...

Henry Ford III

Climate Expert wrote: »

No we're talking about acceleration here. The stuff that makes your body feel force, f=m x a. A lot of fairly average turbo diesels give greater acceleration and greater force. Overall slower to accelerate to high speeds but they still feel faster in this way.
Might be over your head Henry.

Au contraire mon ami

galwaytt

Climate Expert wrote: »

They can't be enjoyed without breaking the law on our roads. I would find owning one incredibly frustrating.

I understand what you're saying, but not entirely accurate.

Yes, can be frustrating at times, but, and here's the thing you can't measure.......those that can't, always try to. Those that know they can....well, they don't need to. For 'to' use, drive/handle/accelerate/perform etc.

There is also the real benefit that performance cars or their ilk, perform at legal speeds etc, with far greater reserves of safety than lesser cars. This is a by-product of things like their brakes, tyres, suspension. And reflects the R & D spend in them.

If ever there was a safety argument in favour of hi-po cars, that's it....

On another level, higher class cars also generally tend to be nicer places to be in. Whether it's the design, materials, technology, quietness - this is usually evident by being built to a spec, rather than to a budget....and these qualities are intangible, immeasurable.

Until you sit into an 'ordinary' car that is.........and the penny drops.

And, it's a fact, all cars on the market can exceed the speed limit, so technically, all cars are superfluous. But nothing is that simple, ever, is it ?

macnab

Climate Expert wrote: »

They can't be enjoyed without breaking the law on our roads. I would find owning one incredibly frustrating.

Believe me, you dont have to break the law to enjoy an M5. It still has that lovely V8 growl when your doing 50kmh, and for some daft reason I get a real kick out of going around a 90 degree tight bend at 20mph in 6th gear, try that in a diesel (kidding, dont) I think bottom line is you either want a supercar or you dont, or maybe you do and she wont let you:D