Let's Talk Mixing Pt 1 : What's on your 2-bus?

jtsuited

Ok with all the Mac vs. PC silliness (which I am proudly a agitator!), and other stuff, I thought we should maybe talk about some nitty-gritty stuff.

So above is a poll about one aspect of mixing I've been thinking about lately.

Now in the genre I deal in, sticking a big limiter across your master before you even start making a track is commonplace (and is not too bad a practice given the genre), but I was interested in seeing how other people work.

Personally, I've started sticking a good bit of compression over the 2-buss about halfway through a mix, as I found mixing without it would just lead to great sounding non-mastered mixes and then not too great mastered mixes.

Of course I always bounce down an alternative mix with no master-bus compression (just in case the Mastering Engineer wants it).

Discuss

trackmixstudio

Nothing on the 2 bus for me.
I prefer to get levels using group (bus) compression on the drums.
A compressor on the 2 bus sucks the whole mix back on the kick and snare hits if you don't get them under control before hitting the master fader. I generally parallel compress the kick(s) and snare then group the whole kit to one stereo bus then squash and play with attack and release times to get the drums fat but not obtrusive.
I can't participate in the poll because the "no" option continues to say because it makes everything muddy which is not my reason.
As for Mac/PC silliness, I think we all know that there is only PC silliness:D

jtsuited

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Nothing on the 2 bus for me.
I prefer to get levels using group (bus) compression on the drums.
A compressor on the 2 bus sucks the whole mix back on the kick and snare hits if you don't get them under control before hitting the master fader. I generally parallel compress the kick(s) and snare then group the whole kit to one stereo bus then squash and play with attack and release times to get the drums fat but not obtrusive.
I can't participate in the poll because the "no" option continues to say because it makes everything muddy which is not my reason.
As for Mac/PC silliness, I think we all know that there is only PC silliness:D

excellent response.
I've been parallel compressing my kicks and snares (and normally a bassline or two to slam it out a bit) but have been finding it difficult to make the snare transients poke out as much as I'd like.

One of the main reasons I started stickin on a compressor during the mix was actually to stop my kicks and snares getting 'de-punch-ified' during mastering. Takes a good bit of practice though to stop them getting sucked out by the 2-bus compression though.

DamagedTrax

currently im mixing more or less ITB so mine usually has tritone colour tone with the studer IR (very mild, usually only 1/2 of colouration), then the waves ssl comp and then just the old elemental audio meters & analyzers.

comp is usually set to a very mild -1/-2 rd and is really only used to add a touch of glue (it seems to sound beautiful mixed with the studer IR) - ill usually turn this on when i have a rough mix done and a few sends sorted out.

most of my main compression is done in the groups

dunno how true it is but ive always assumed that smaller amounts of compression thru-out the chain will get a much louder and dynamic mix (without having to slam the limiter) when it comes to mastering, rather than just slamming a comp on the 2 and crushing evrything.

dav nagle

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Nothing on the 2 bus for me.
I prefer to get levels using group (bus) compression on the drums.
A compressor on the 2 bus sucks the whole mix back on the kick and snare hits if you don't get them under control before hitting the master fader. I generally parallel compress the kick(s) and snare then group the whole kit to one stereo bus then squash and play with attack and release times to get the drums fat but not obtrusive.
I can't participate in the poll because the "no" option continues to say because it makes everything muddy which is not my reason.
As for Mac/PC silliness, I think we all know that there is only PC silliness:D

Hilarious!:)

PaulBrewer

Usually use the SSL Bus comp in the console or Manley Vari-Mu.
Either when the thought strikes us, or when things are sounding shyte!

The SSL usually gets kicked in first (out of laziness usually, as it's already there) remembering it's more 'rock'n'roll' - but if we need some posh/shiny - ness, the Manley is the boy.

You can melt the SSL meter without too much bother whereas the Manley is more fussy though not to the level of being hard to use.

Sometimes the Manley adds a nice overall shine which can be desirable without using it's compression, perhaps the valves just smooth things a bit.

We'd use it on every mix.

trackmixstudio

jtsuited wrote: »

excellent response.
One of the main reasons I started stickin on a compressor during the mix was actually to stop my kicks and snares getting 'de-punch-ified' during mastering. Takes a good bit of practice though to stop them getting sucked out by the 2-bus compression though.

Here is a trick that will really help you with this problem.
Bus all your tracks apart from the drums and notch a hole for your kick and snare in the bus using a good eq. This should help with overall mix level and let you get the rest of the track up there leaving the drums very clear but not so high above the mix that the master compressor will suck the whole mix back on the hits. I do this very often or even most of the time.

trackmixstudio

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Usually use the SSL Bus comp in the console or Manley Vari-Mu.
Either when the thought strikes us, or when things are sounding shyte!

The SSL usually gets kicked in first (out of laziness usually, as it's already there) remembering it's more 'rock'n'roll' - but if we need some posh/shiny - ness, the Manley is the boy.

You can melt the SSL meter without too much bother whereas the Manley is more fussy though not to the level of being hard to use.

Sometimes the Manley adds a nice overall shine which can be desirable without using it's compression, perhaps the valves just smooth things a bit.

We'd use it on every mix.

My SSL is away for repair at the moment so I can't comment on this:p

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

My SSL is away for repair at the moment so I can't comment on this:p

Must be a bootleg ..... real SSLs don't break!;)

frobisher

Not sure I get why the "no" option says it muddies the mix or makes it mushy. I certainly don't avoid stereo master inserts for that reason. My go to for this job is the PSP Vintage Warmer. Forget about the slightly dodgy name and tweak it a bit and it can be great. I also sometimes LOVE what a little reverb sent from the 2 buss can do too. People talk about master compression gluing a mix, I kinda get what they mean but if you want real glue some reverb from the master outs can give it to you in spades.

squibs

Been experimenting with tape saturation plugs on the master bus lately - just enough so you can't really hear it but notice if it is disabled. I believe its a tip frm Charles Dye's MILAR series.

Neurojazz

my initial mix has nothing on the buss... then i sometimes separate parts out into 2-4 busses for final mixdown and each buss will have waves l3 and a shelving Eq to clean that up - the waves is used to bring out quiet sounds - not so much to mash the mix.

The 'final' buss for me would be what you'd call a 'pre-master' and you'd call me mad if i told you what i do with it - the final thing in the slots though is the MD3 - limiter built in, but very light.

seannash

i wish i knew what you lads were talking about.i get the feeling theres alot of knowlege being shared on this thread:(:(:(:D

frobisher

seannash wrote: »

i wish i knew what you lads were talking about.i get the feeling theres alot of knowlege being shared on this thread:(:(:(:D

Just ask about any elements that you don't understand and we'll be happy to help clear it up.

PaulBrewer

seannash wrote: »

i wish i knew what you lads were talking about.i get the feeling theres alot of knowlege being shared on this thread:(:(:(:D

Compression / Limiting on the overall mix. i.e. Bus Compression on the stereo output bus. It's a common process. It's much different that just individually compressing the tracks.

The common description of the effect of this compression is it 'glues' the mix together.

seannash

frobisher wrote: »

Just ask about any elements that you don't understand and we'll be happy to help clear it up.

its always a stumbling block of mine.i dont understand it so i never put anything on my master.i compress individual elements and tracks but when it comes to my master channel im stumped.
people have told me to do a final eq on my master but i just cant help but think if you want more of a certain frequency range is it not better to boost the elements in that range instead of eqing the entire thing.
but yeah after that im lost.i never limit because im pretty unsure of how to do it.
i understand what it does but i never apply it

frobisher

Seannash: THis outlines some points you may benefit from: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/170189-mix-buss-compression-charles-dye.html

jtsuited

frobisher wrote: »

Seannash: THis outlines some points you may benefit from: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/170189-mix-buss-compression-charles-dye.html

Probably the best guide to anything I've ever read!

frobisher

jtsuited wrote: »

Probably the best guide to anything I've ever read!

Gearslutz is a super, super site and the new tips and techniques sections hold some seriously valuable info wrapped into easy to read bite sized nuggets.

PaulBrewer

frobisher wrote: »

Gearslutz is a super, super site and the new tips and techniques sections hold some seriously valuable info wrapped into easy to read bite sized nuggets.

It's also filled with Tin Roofers... however that does seem to be a good post.

seannash

frobisher wrote: »

Seannash: THis outlines some points you may benefit from: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/tips-techniques/170189-mix-buss-compression-charles-dye.html

thanks man,reading now

frobisher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

It's also filled with Tin Roofers... however that does seem to be a good post.

I haven't noticed it to be site that has a high percentage of tin roofing when compared to the average internet forum. All in all I find it one of the best forums out there.

jtsuited

frobisher wrote: »

I haven't noticed it to be site that has a high percentage of tin roofing when compared to the average internet forum. All in all I find it one of the best forums out there.

No there is a good few tin roofers over there.

In the Electronic Music forum, the place is full of hardware synth nuts who genuinely don't make any music. And the ones that do, well, they're rubbish.

Although Robert Babicz posts over there (Mastering forum mainly).

Someone asked 'how do I sound like Robert Babicz', and low and behold Rob shows up!

frobisher

jtsuited wrote: »

No there is a good few tin roofers over there.

In the Electronic Music forum, the place is full of hardware synth nuts who genuinely don't make any music. And the ones that do, well, they're rubbish.

Although Robert Babicz posts over there (Mastering forum mainly).

Someone asked 'how do I sound like Robert Babicz', and low and behold Rob shows up!

Of course there are. Remember kids, This Is The Internet. :p:p If anyone looking to learn and is reading this they should ignore PaulBrewer & jtsuited and trust in papap frob'. Gearslutz contains some great info and exchange of views that we can all learn from. Caveat Emptor.

jtsuited

frobisher wrote: »

Of course there are. Remember kids, This Is The Internet. :p:p If anyone looking to learn and is reading this they should ignore PaulBrewer & jtsuited and trust in papap frob'. Gearslutz contains some great info and exchange of views that we can all learn from. Caveat Emptor.

ah yeah there's a lot of good info over there. just the electronic section sucks.

frobisher

jtsuited wrote: »

ah yeah there's a lot of good info over there. just the electronic section sucks.

I can't vouch for that section. It actually doesn't seem that busy so if I was looking for that kind of stuff I'd be looking elsewhere. The classified section is great though!

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The common description of the effect of this compression is it 'glues' the mix together.

But does it really? I know this is a tall order, but can you explain why it's preferable to compressing individual tracks? Or can you do both?

Also, does compressing the master bus eat into headroom if you're going to master your song?

Finally, could you suggest a few compressor settings (threshold/ratio/attack/release) that one might see on a master bus compressor?

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

But does it really? Or can you do both?

Oh yes!

seannash

TelePaul wrote: »

But does it really? I know this is a tall order, but can you explain why it's preferable to compressing individual tracks? Or can you do both?

Also, does compressing the master bus eat into headroom if you're going to master your song?

Finally, could you suggest a few compressor settings (threshold/ratio/attack/release) that one might see on a master bus compressor?

see im kind of in the same boat,ive lobbed compressors on my master becuase it was the thing to do but i didnt really notice any change except for getting the volume up.maybe im just listening to it wrong or something,coupled with the fact i dont know what im listening for

PaulBrewer

seannash wrote: »

see im kind of in the same boat,ive lobbed compressors on my master becuase it was the thing to do but i didnt really notice any change except for getting the volume up.maybe im just listening to it wrong or something,coupled with the fact i dont know what im listening for

Dare I ask....

Using good equipment on good monitors in a good room?

seannash

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Dare I ask....

Using good equipment on good monitors in a good room?

its coming out of logic.
rme hammerfall multiface,genelec 8030a monitors.
now granted my room isnt ideal but i should notice a change right

PaulBrewer

seannash wrote: »

its coming out of logic.
rme hammerfall multiface,genelec 8030a monitors.
now granted my room isnt ideal but i should notice a change right

Yes, I guess so.

seannash

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Yes, I guess so.

im using a sonalksis compressor too.
i dunno like i said maybe im just focusing on the wrong thing

PaulBrewer

I'm not sure about software comps but Hardware ones do, perhaps, need to be given a bit of a dig.

On that Fround track on our Myspace , she was boppin' up to 12db compression at 2:1 as I recall. That's straight up on the Comps Vu meter, though we try not to look!

It doesn't sound too squashed to me (allowing for being Myspaced too)

In other words, try melting it a bit .... you can always pull it back:D

seannash

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'm not sure about software comps but Hardware ones do perhaps need to be given a bit of a dig.

On that Fround track on our Myspace , she was boppin' up to 12db compression at 2:1 as I recall. That's straight up on the Comps Vu meter, though we try not to look!

It doesn't sound too squashed to me (allowing for being Myspaced too)

In other words, try melting it a bit .... you can always pull it back:D

okay so i always hear the term squashing.
so is that a high ratio with a low threshold.i know theres other elements to it but is that how youd squash a track.then use the make up gain to bring it back up(volume wise)
apols if this is very basic:)

frobisher

Telepaul & Seannash:

Work with it more and, despite it being quite an in vogue tool amongst home recordists on internet sites, don't expect miracles. Unless you're careful it can ruin a mix far, far quicker than it will make one. Use presets to learn from, not to the job for you. A good way to get a feel for how compression works in any regard is to over do it. When you really hear what it's doing, wind it back a bit, get used to it, listen critically and compare it to the mix without it. If you do this then be very careful about gain compensation on the compressor. If you've got a high ratio with a low threshold it will bring the volume of your mix down so you'll often be looking to bring the gain back up so you bring it a few notches and realise that as you've flattened out your waveform your highest peak is now lower so you can push the over all volume up. So then when you switch between the uncompressed and the compressed signal you get a jump in volume on the compressed signal. This is the equivalent of brewing fresh coffee in the house your trying to sell. Loud can feel like more (hence the loudness wars), but it's not. So try keep your outputs matched while deciding if you like what it's doing. I hope that I've written the above in a way that makes sense to you! If not just ask away about any points.

I have to say that I don't like the term glue when it's used as freely as it is in this regard. Kinda feels like everyone else is hearing something I don't! It does help a mix seem to all live within its own space a bit, but to me what it brings more than glue is energy. Kind of like it squeezes out empty space so that the size of what your listening to now has more action and movement in the sound. But we all experience things differently.

Just as a word of caution, much of the above abused slightly is the basis for what has become known as the loudness wars and I can't help but wonder if modern brick wall mastering has given rise to the ears of music makers having grown used to that slammed sound. Resist the temptation whack to it on until you get used to it. I sometimes LOVE a slammed mix but dynamics are your friend and as things in music move in and out of cycles you can expect dynamics to swing back into vogue any day now.

In the Gearslutz link above there are some basic starting point settings mentioned. Make of the what you will!

seannash

im still confused ha ha.
i think ill bring a track to a friends studio and let him apply compression on the master so i can hear what it does.
right now i can only get the compressor to do stuff that sounds bad,havent figured out how to improve things with a compressor
thanks for the replies though