Atheist arrogance

Tim Robbins

Hi,
Ok this is a bit of a weird one. Does anybody feel they can come across a bit arrogant?

When debating / discussing / arguing I tend to try and work through the logic of the disagreement. Unfortunately, when someone is being irrational, emotional their arguments fall apart in record time. That's embarrasing for anyone and it can often mean that the emotional person thinks the logic person is just arrogant.

Arrogance is a curse. It doesn't win friends. The Buddhist religion (and in some respects Christianity) teaches humbleness and compassion. This means that humans who follow these traditions get little reminders about important things, even if their religions are ultimately baseless and half their followers fail to practise what they preach.

But I'm wondering, in what respects could an atheist take action to ensure they do not become immune and apathetic by the onset of unintended arrogance?

Do we need little reminders?

Discuss.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Do we need little reminders?

Sure - for a start don't put "discuss" at the end of an opening post.* :pac:

It's tough for atheists to avoid the arrogant label by virtue of the subject matter. By it's nature, supporting atheism in a debate is about discrediting other people's beliefs.

On the other hand a believer with the same enthusiasm is seen to have great 'faith'.


* Pet hate - and I know I'm not alone

Galvasean

Not arrogant, correct!

F.A.

Well, I usually tend to avoid the subject at all cost as I simply consider religion unbelievably (excuse the pun) silly. I grew up in a country where atheism was/is the norm, so I find it difficult to take religious folks seriously. But as I said, I try to avoid the subject. That way, they don't feel patronised, and I don't feel like I'm entertaining clowns*.

Strangely enough, I consider many religious folks to be highly condescending in their disregard for atheists' morale. Talking to them, you'd swear you have to be religious to know the difference between right and wrong, let alone have any deep rooted sense of empathy/sympathy...emotion, really. You can see traces of this even in discussions on this forum! I find that attitude incredibly arrogant, but there you go...

*No offence. It's just if you're not used to it at all, mass certainly ressembles a circus performance.

JimiTime

Galvasean wrote: »

Not arrogant, correct!

HeHe. I remember my late father, who was also a christian, joking: 'I'm not arrogant, I know there a people greater than me...........I just haven't met them yet':)

JimiTime

F.A. wrote: »

. I grew up in a country where atheism was/is the norm,

Where was that, do you mind me asking?

Galvasean

F.A. wrote: »

Well, I usually tend to avoid the subject at all cost.

In Religion and Spirituality Forum, subject finds you!

aidan24326

Dades wrote: »

It's tough for atheists to avoid the arrogant label by virtue of the subject matter. By it's nature, supporting atheism in a debate is about discrediting other people's beliefs.

On the other hand a believer with the same enthusiasm is seen to have great 'faith'.

Pretty much agree with that.

F.A.

Galvasean wrote: »

In Religion and Spirituality Forum, subject finds you!

Which is why you won't see much of me here. I do enjoy reading this forum though. It's encouraging to see that not everybody in this country is bereft of logic and reason and in awe of...fairy tales.

20goto10

No but I get told it all the time. In fact atheists are the opposite. We're so unarrogant that we know we don't have it all sorted out and have a lot more science to discover. One new discovery opens up hundreds of unanswered questions.

Whats arrogant is to believe you know it all. God created the universe and mankind etc etc Religion is as arrogant as you can get....but can arrogance be based on ignorance? I'm not sure. Maybe they're just ignorant

JimiTime

F.A. wrote: »

It's encouraging to see that not everybody in this country is bereft of logic and reason and in awe of...fairy tales.

LOL, is that irony on purpose?:)

milod

It can be a very thin line between confidence and arrogance, and I think anyone of faith will resent a confident viewpoint backed up by reason and logic.

The Christian faith is based in unquestioning respect for authority, so those that free themselves from the shackles of false humility will inevitably be perceived as arrogant.

As an atheist, no matter how delicately I phrase my argument to persons of faith, my essential point is that I don't believe in fairy stories, and they do...

I see accusations of arrogance as inevitable :rolleyes:

Hivemind187

Arrogant .... moi?

JimiTime

20goto10 wrote: »

In fact atheists are the opposite.

'Atheists' are the opposite? So there is an official atheist group is there? Which one can group them all together in the same box? I would have thought that there can be arrogant atheists, and humble atheists no?

We're so unarrogant that we know we don't have it all sorted out and have a lot more science to discover.

If you think the above, then you have sorted it out. No Gods etc exist. We are here by some cosmic accident, but we just don't know the exact details 'yet'. I don't think that you thinking the above makes you arrogant though. Thinking that the above makes you intellectually greater than someone who believes in God however, then we are crossing a line.

Rev Hellfire

It's unavoidable when your central argument is that those who embrace science and reason will reject superstition and the supernatural.

Zillah

Arrogance is only a problem if you're out to win friends. As opposed to trying to perform the intellectual equivalent of beating someone to death with a pipe.

Dades

JimiTime wrote: »

Thinking that the above makes you intellectually greater than someone who believes in God however, then we are crossing a line.

That's more or less it really.

Malari

Arrogance is something that's inferred, not implied, so I don't have a problem if religious people think I'm arrogant.

c0rk3r

I have yet to meet someone who lives their life through science, logic and reason. Its just not who we are.

Science has it boundaries and cant yield the questions we seek in our lives. As much as science can determine which colour to paint your room or is the death penalty right or wrong.

Arrogance and atheist. Well just dont talk or preach to people who are unconcerned. Ive yet to have a conversation about religion in any social circle ive been in. Sure i know whos an atheist and whos not, thats fine. Its a personal choice and should remain so. Im not going to debate or argue it. I wont change his/her mind.

ChocolateSauce

I hate coming off as arrogant when I'm talking to people (not so much an issue when on the internet though), but I wonder: Does one come off as arrogant if you are trying hard not to be?

In the rare real-life religious debates I enter, I restrain myself as much as possible without folding the argument, but the very fact I have to restrain myself tells other people volumes about what I think of their beliefs.

But yes, anyone who thinks they're right can be arrogant. People who know they are right are just stupid though, not matter which side they're on.

Yes, I am very arrogant...But I don't see it as an intrinsically bad thing. I try to restrain myself.

Zombrex

Depends on what one means by arrogant

On the Christian forum an atheist is "arrogant" if he thinks he has a good reason why God doesn't exist.

It gets very tiresome being told that I am arrogant because I assume to know the nature of God (and thus why he can't exist) or judge God (and thus why if he does he is immoral) by someone who claims to have personal communications with him all the time.

Sangre

Well I find it hard to give most religious views any respect or even to not ridicule most of it. Don't think I've ever come across the situation much in real life, not unless I'm directly asked about something. Its hard not to when I equate accepting most theist positions as that of a 40 year old still believing in Santa. No likely this is/or comes across as arrogance.

5uspect

Indeed, It seems that many theists equate the general lack of respect for their beliefs among atheists, which is so ingrained in society, as arrogance.

CDfm

Usually atheists come across as an intellectually superior lot.

Im for freedom of belief for everyone and religious tolerance.

If you argue on line with an atheist there is a smugness you dont get elsewhere - you cant just post "I dont understand what you mean" .

I know its a contentious issue -but on one abortion thread if I didnt understand something I could post that and invariably someone would offer a very helpful explanation to a concept or scientific issue beyond my grasp. Not so with atheists.


You are also expected to understand their in-jokes and SOH- say on the thread about the Italian comedienne and the pope - many atheist posters dont want to accept that others dont find it funny and view their humour as highly offensive and ugly..

I find most atheists as arrogant as any dogmatic religious zealot and on-line are best left in their own little world.

Mena

Well, to quote someone else... When you're arguing with adults who believe in fairy tales, it's pretty difficult to not be smug and superior.

CDfm

Mena wrote: »

Well, to quote someone else... When you're arguing with adults who believe in fairy tales, it's pretty difficult to not be smug and superior.

when you argue with Neo-Darwinists its difficult to believe they are not apes.

Zillah

CDfm wrote: »

You are also expected to understand their in-jokes and SOH- say on the thread about the Italian comedienne and the pope - many atheist posters dont want to accept that others dont find it funny and view their humour as highly offensive and ugly..

Most small and active online communities are going to have their own in-jokes, its not really fair to level that specifically at atheists.

CDfm

Zillah wrote: »

Most small and active online communities are going to have their own in-jokes, its not really fair to level that specifically at atheists.

its fair in the context of the ones ive come across

Mena

CDfm wrote: »

when you argue with Neo-Darwinists its difficult to believe they are not apes.

Uhm, we are essentially just apes, more or less

Zillah

...with guns, unfortunately.

CDfm

Mena wrote: »

Uhm, we are essentially just apes, more or less

that hairy -huh - you could be German:p

Mena

CDfm wrote: »

that hairy -huh - you could be German:p

The horror!

CDfm

Mena wrote: »

The horror!

the Popes German -its ok really.:D

Dades

CDfm wrote: »

I know its a contentious issue -but on one abortion thread if I didnt understand something I could post that and invariably someone would offer a very helpful explanation to a concept or scientific issue beyond my grasp. Not so with atheists.

If there's one thing I've found of atheists it's a complete willingness to explain their position, or a scientific point.

CDfm

Dades wrote: »

If there's one thing I've found of atheists it's a complete willingness to explain their position, or a scientific point.

Dades are you being ironic?:pac:

On the abortion thread - I would have agreed with you.

But the general belief threads nah- I suppose its difficult to accept that atheists are not as open minded and fair as you would like to think.

But you know that already - it would take a resiliant poster to keep it up.

Its easier and more fun to let them get on in their own little world.

Ya should put a believers keep out on the threads.

Sangre

Take a look a the creationist thread (well once they haven't repeated themselves 20 times). The posters there are more than willingly to explain any science they can if ask or to refute a point. I honestly don't know how you could have got that opinion from reading boards, I have learnt countless new, interesting scientific facts just be casual reading on here.

CDfm

i am not really interested as i am not a creationist

CerebralCortex

CDfm wrote: »

Dades are you being ironic?:pac:

On the abortion thread - I would have agreed with you.

But the general belief threads nah- I suppose its difficult to accept that atheists are not as open minded and fair as you would like to think.

But you know that already - it would take a resiliant poster to keep it up.

Its easier and more fun to let them get on in their own little world.

Ya should put a believers keep out on the threads.

Whoa! What is wrong with you? Why would you say something so inflammatory? Especially when its both unsubstantiated and almost completely untrue. Why the need to atheist bash?

KnifeWRENCH

Like all other groups, there are some arrogant athiests and some....unarrogant (?) athiests.

I have no problem with athiesm, and certainly have no problem with athiests explaining their beliefs. I do, however, find comments like this extremely arrogant:

Mena wrote:

Well, to quote someone else... When you're arguing with adults who believe in fairy tales, it's pretty difficult to not be smug and superior.

It bugs me when some athiests think that they are intellectually superior to theists and have the right to be condescending and patronising. That can come across as extremely arrogant.
Luckily, most athiests I know are not like that.

Sangre

CDfm wrote: »

i am not really interested as i am not a creationist

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point. It shows a willingness on the part of some the atheist posters to constantly show scientific reasoning, logic and facts to backup their points. Whether they are making claims or refuting others. A lot of these posters make up the majority of the posters here. I'm just wondering where on earth you got the impression atheists here don't give scientific reasoning. If anything the nerdy bastards go over board.

CDfm

so thats what stops believers posting on threads

most wouldnt say it being too nice- but ive no problem with it - Im a realist

they are your nerds

marco_polo

CDfm wrote: »

so thats what stops believers posting on threads

most wouldnt say it being too nice- but ive no problem with it - Im a realist

they are your nerds

It doesn't seem to bother JimiTime or SoulWinner who are well able to fight the good fight here. Perhaps you are just out of you depth?

Looking at how you survive using a strategy of sarcasm, contradicting yourself and desperate topic changing, in order to avoid replying to posts questioning your feeble arguments, it certainly seems to be the case.

CDfm

it doesnt interest me ging on a thread to argue

ironingbored

marco_polo wrote: »

Looking at how you survive using a strategy of sarcasm, contradicting yourself and desperate topic changing, in order to avoid replying to posts questioning your feeble arguments, it certainly seems to be the case.

+1

marco_polo

CDfm wrote: »

it doesnt interest me ging on a thread to argue

Sure it doesn't :rolleyes:

CDfm

It really doesnt matter that JimiTime and SoulWinner are into this. Im not them.

On wider matters of the philosophy of religion and even philosophy in general, the original thinkers and source material the arguments are drawn on etc the discussions are a no brainer go nowhere.Thats where my interests lie.

As for Neo Darwin - that fceker- what has he published. I went to my local library and couldnt find anything by him.

marco_polo

CDfm wrote: »

It really doesnt matter that JimiTime and SoulWinner are into this. Im not them.

On wider matters of the philosophy of religion and even philosophy in general, the original thinkers and source material the arguments are drawn on etc the discussions are a no brainer go nowhere.Thats where my interests lie.

As for Neo Darwin - that fceker- what has he published. I went to my local library and couldnt find anything by him.

Evasion ......................tick
Random topic change ....tick
Sarcasm .....................tick

I'm bored of you now

faceman

There is a film coming out that looks funny called "Religulous"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8fPJ6zds8

I watched an interview with the director (an atheist) and both him and the interviewer (an atheist) took a very elitist view to their beliefs mocking anyone who had any faith whatsoever.

It was quite partronising to anyone religious. It feels sometimes very hypocritical when atheist celebrate their atheism. Particular those that are anti religion. Celebrating atheism is no different than celebrating religious beliefs when carried out in the same fashion! In my view of course.

CDfm

marco_polo wrote: »

Evasion ......................tick
Random topic change ....tick
Sarcasm .....................tick

I'm bored of you now

Is it true that Neo has recorded (the kneebones connected to the thigbone) And thats a Natural Law.

Is it?

marco_polo

CDfm wrote: »

Is it true that Neo has recorded (the kneebones connected to the thigbone) And thats a Natural Law.

Is it?

Just give up

5uspect

faceman wrote: »

It was quite partronising to anyone religious. It feels sometimes very hypocritical when atheist celebrate their atheism. Particular those that are anti religion. Celebrating atheism is no different than celebrating religious beliefs when carried out in the same fashion! In my view of course.

I can see how mocking the religious to show how stupid we perceive their beliefs to be can be patronising. But how is it hypocritical?

Most Atheists would follow the scientific model in which they present their evidence and are open to change in the face of new evidence. Just because the god hypothesis doesn't require evidence (and outright rejects it) doesn't mean its somehow special and deserving of quiet respect. If anything such an idea needs serious criticism.

Its not closed minded to reject such an idea. Nor is it hypocritical to celebrate the fact that you try to approach the world in an objective and logical manner.