Waterford University discussion

Valhalla90

Fine Gael and parish pump politics caused this SETU mess.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756720#Comment_121756720

Where are the students going to so? The traditional universities.

Does that mean the traditional universities have increased capacity over the years.

The number of students is increasing recently so they must be going somewhere.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758116#Comment_121758116

Traditional universities. Apparently because of fear of signing up for a TU course and not knowing where the course is on? Just imagine darling Peregrine or Jemima being sent to Tallaght IOT instead of Grangegorman or, heaven forbid, to Blanchardstown IOT etc. Or signing up for WIT and ending up in Wexford or Rathnew where there are hardly campuses at all? is this where its at? At least with MTU its Cork or Tralee. Kids and their parents want certainty at a challenging time.

The TU structure, unthoughtout, unfunded, with the unforeseen consequences of politically and departmentally driven mergers and problematic expansion, is a disaster for the south east which has no traditional university to fall back on. The worst Minister for Further Education or indeed any education ever. A Fine Gaeler implementing rotten Fine Gael policies for his own ends.

A General Election is coming and he will move on leaving a mountainous crock behind him, just as he did in the Dept of Health.

Imacman: We have lost 50 years of name recognition for a merged entity that is difficult to understand for the school leaver and they are voting with their CAO choices, sad to say but Waterford was a better place before the merger.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758562#Comment_121758562

People will always choose the traditional universities over the ITs even if they're called TUs.

In terms of economies of scale, it's probably much easier to increase capacity at the universities than start a new university in Waterford although I still think the SE should have a university based on the advantages of proximity.

There's lots of access programs these days and being able to live at home is a big advantage. If you imagine someone in a wheelchair who wanted to study Law or Medicine, it'd be better for them to live at home although obviously they'll have to learn independence eventually.

If you looked at a map of universities in Ireland, there's a big gap in the SE and the NW and the midlands, although I guess the midlands are close to everywhere.

What was the exact reason Waterford didn't get a university?

azimuth17

Forgive me for being brusque if you are not a troll, but this statement is offensive nonsense.

Orangerhyme: In terms of economies of scale, it's probably much easier to increase capacity at the universities than start a new university in Waterford.

The case history is too long to repeat again, suffice it to say WIT was assessed and deemed at university status. It met the requirements. Nothing but rotten politics prevented it happening,

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758737#Comment_121758737

I don't see how it's offensive or nonsense.

Economies of scale is very real.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758746#Comment_121758746

It was assessed independently and brought to cabinet. When it was assessed during the noughties it was within touching distance in size terms of UL , Maynooth and DCU. Each had circa 10,000 students. I dont have the exact figures to hand, you can research them yourself and the wider issue if you are that interested in the case and are not a troll from university zone. Since then WIT has been officially neutered, its top management eviscerated and not a single new building in 15 years while the three universities have been on a building, development and student recruiting spree.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758830#Comment_121758830

I'm obviously not trolling. Just expressing an opinion. I said Waterford should have a university.

imacman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758116#Comment_121758116

From the research I have seen there has been an increase in places in university funded by the government and more courses like arts and commerce have had a drop in points which pick up student numbers.On the lower end of the scale the FE colleges have had a significant increase in numbers over the last few years and are picking up students with lower points. Also, apprenticeships are getting lots of funding and rolling out in areas like IT and accountancy again picking up students would normally have gone to an IT. Either way the whole TU sector is struggling for numbers and the idea pushed by the government of a TU bounce and students seeing the TUs as equivalent to the established universities is not playing out. And let's not forget that student numbers determine the bulk of the funding all the TU's/old IT's get

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758981#Comment_121758981

So what now?

imacman

Imacman: We have lost 50 years of name recognition for a merged entity that is difficult to understand for the school leaver and they are voting with their CAO choices, sad to say but Waterford was a better place before the merger.

I should have added as well as name recognition we have lost 50 years of reputation too. What are we left with a very confusing organisation with courses with the same name and award, different points, different campuses, and various levels of teaching. It's a mess and millions have been spent on rebranding and change management consultants to put Waterford and Carlow in a worse position that they were in as ITs.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758981#Comment_121758981

It's probably just a temporary blip.

Demographically there's a bulge of teenagers currently moving through the education system. These are the children of the "pope's children", if you know what I mean.

A record number of students did the Junior Cert in 2023, so we'll see record numbers doing the LC soon.

So we'll hit another peak of CAO applicants very soon. I wonder will apprenticeships come back into fashion. It's one of the jobs you're guaranteed that AI can't do. I know Simon Harris is currently promoting apprenticeships. If I were him, I'd use TikTok to promote it.

I think in time TUD Grangegorman will establish itself as having some prestige also. I'm not sure about the other ones but MTU so I think will have a good reputation.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759073#Comment_121759073

Is there a plan in future to streamline the courses? i.e. amalgamate courses into just one campus. Maybe have different faculties in different campuses.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759195#Comment_121759195

A plan? Jesus. Have we a sensible plan for anything, health, housing? How long would it take to decide which courses went where in this region? A decade? The political infghting will be endless and still the brain drain will continue. This TU thing was a virus introduced into WIT and the south east specifically to kill all aspirations.

Germany has a binary system of third level education. We are developing a tertiary (trinary?) system Uni,TU, CFE, unless of course they intend to wind TU amd CFE into one stream/unit. The future is, what..?

invara

https://www.wlrfm.com/news/donohoe-waterford-visit-349561

Government 'understands frustrations' on the ground in Waterford .....

Having told us everything will have to wait for the SETU strategic plan, Harris refused to endorse it in the Dáil this week, saying everything on a case-by-case basis. Compare that to senior Ministers who launch university strategic plans.

For example, Minister Harris launched MTU's https://www.mtu.ie/news/mtu-launches-strategic-plan/ .... currently investing €150m in campus developments at MTU, and university management is moving on to the next set of capital requests. Government has spent over €1/2bn on CIT since 2005, around the time Government turned on WIT (we have spent around €17m in same time and were hauled through PAC for this), FF/Greens slow-walking the university application (section 9 review), trying to manage the Port report (they failed) then the Hunt report, FG promised full university, then destroyed WIT management over eight years to force the TU merger. We were promised our history would restart after the nastiness of the forced TU, and then nothing. Cork walks into the TU with their €150m capital promise which are now almost fully delivered.

Honest question. Should we say the TU is a busted proposition and ask for a full university, or focus on the Government not delivering anything from their own TU agenda (borrowing, €350m capital, PPPs, Wexford promises, new lecturing contracts incl professorate, new courses in pharmacy, teacher training and veterinary, new management structure).

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836060#Comment_121836060

Read this and weep. The result of the axis of evil Hogan and Howlin. Two men from the south east destroyed the south east university. Almost impossible to comprehend,

Valhalla90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836851#Comment_121836851

That’s why always remember Fine Gael & Labour were their party’s.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121836060#Comment_121836060

Yes, we should absolutely continue to look for a university in Waterford.

Valhalla90

SETU is a political football now. Funding and future developments within it will go to where the minister is from within the South East. It’s not a good way to develop a university. Hopefully one day the breaks will be put on this mess. WIT for standalone university. SETU was done to please Wexford and Kilkenny initially. Still can’t see what Kilkenny got from it only promises.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121838093#Comment_121838093

Kilkenny were never to get anything out of it really, being so close to both Waterford and Carlow, so their political dog in the manger opposition to Waterford prevented the UW proposition. The old "If we can't have it, we'll stop you having it" despite the fact that thousands of youngsters from Kilkenny and indeed from Wexford got good degree level education in WIT and prospered subsequently in good jobs. But that was not enough to garner political support as happened with UL and surrounding counties. I simply cannot understand it. The whole thing has been a miserable lesson in self harm instigated by ignorant, foolish or just plain mendacious politicians.

The honest question posed by INVARA above "Should we say the TU is a busted proposition and ask for a full university, or focus on the Government not delivering anything from their own TU agenda"? is now completely relevant. I certainly favour a full university.

The region and its normal people will regret what has happened for another 100 years at this rate. Its they and their children who will be impacted. The politicans who made a complete hash of things will retire and never regret anything. They never wanted to know anything anyway except maybe ABW!

Dum_Dum_2

It's not over until medicine and law can be taught with degrees issued by the University of Waterford in its own right.

Everything else is just fluff.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121838835#Comment_121838835

In a nutshell.

imacman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121838093#Comment_121838093

The whole idea that there ever will be a standalone university in Waterford is complete fantasy now. We had our chance in the mid-2000s when it was close but again politics got in the way. A standalone university in Waterford will never be a political priority no matter who is in government (David Cullinane hasbought in the regional TU idea as it suits the Sinn Fein political agenda).

And even if there was powerful Waterford TD in the cabinet with a top-level portfolio who wanted to push the stand-alone Waterford university there would be massive opposition from the existing university sector which would block any moves to make it happen. So the TU is the best we will ever get

914

I agree, we are screwed, if people request a stand alone Uni, we will be told "you have a university", I honestly feel any chance is well and truly lost.

Had we been allowed to go the TU road alone then we had some hope as we could continue to build Waterford and reach a point where we would have to be granted stand alone Uni status.

That said people need to keep fighting for it. No doubt future reports will still state the "brain drain" but the politicians of today will be long gone and will have zero accountability for this mess

imacman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847585#Comment_121847585

Thats fair but it's very difficult fight for it when we have no weapons that can make a difference on national politics and the status quo. Its galling to see Wexford councillors complaining that there is no campus plan for Wexford 6 months after they completed the dubious CPO for a site. WIT had no investment for 20 years and there is still a vacant site on campus for a building that was meant to be built 15 years ago.

With the planning permission running out in August and no sign of any movement on the building that means it will be pushed back another few years as they will have to start the planning process again. We can't even force the government to invest in a building they have announced multiple times and has planning permission with a ready to go site so you can forget about a standalone university.

azimuth17

When Bertie Ahern was Taoiseach, Martin Cullen was a minister and university status seemed within our grasp, they both were in town and were asked about a university for Waterford. Bertie said and its probably on record "the state does not establish universities, they grow organically out of something pre-existing and are given university status". Hence UL and DCU had grown out of NIHE Limerick and Dublin respectively and Maynooth from a seminary. That was the path that WIT followed until it was almost destroyed. It may eventually be the only path we have to take through the TU morass.

Someone more expert than me, like INVARA will better be able to provide some direction on that?

Does the major Frisby student accommodation plan and announcement of a refurb for the glass building alter anything?

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121847748#Comment_121847748

I agree it's hard to keep up the fight when the fight looks impossible. That said pressure has to be kept on our local representatives, in the interim we need to see any major investment in SETU land in Waterford and massively increase our student numbers here.

As Ireland's population grows some day a new stand alone University will need to be created and we need to ensure waterford is the best place for that.

The only way to do that is to ensure Waterford campus progresses so much that it becomes undeniable logical sense for Waterford to seperate from SETU and become a stand alone University.

Whether that is allowed to happen or not is another thing, at the end of the day all we have here is a TU campus whereas Cork, Limerick and Galway all have two institutions, stand alone Unis and TU campuses and that is what we need to strive to have in Waterford.

914

To add to the above when professor Willie Donnelly was present he stated on record that Waterford needed €200 million and Carlow €250 million for SETU to be a success so we all need to ensure we see €200 million invested in Waterford and that excludes any private investment such as Frisbys student accommodation and innovation park

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121848309#Comment_121848309

It's a no brainer to have a university in the SE and Waterford's the obvious location.

The population of Waterford, Carlow, Wexford and Kilkenny is 470,000. So it'll be 500,000 by 2030.

Proximity to education is important for people from low income backgrounds and people with disabilities and also mature students, mothers etc.

The only other gap in Ireland would be the midlands and the NW I guess.

I think Waterford's proximity to Cork and Dublin maybe went against it as a location.