Bioethanol fireplace

Smashee

Hiya,

I'm looking into putting a bioethanol fuelled fireplace into my new home. We're considering underfloor heating fuelled through geothermal and were going to put a wood pellet stove in the living area as a booster but just yesterday I came across some really nice bioethanol fuelled firelpaces on the net. What I'm wondering if firstly if anyone has any experience with one of these fireplaces in terms of the heat they produce? And also when bioethanol burns does it have any smell or is it odourless?

Thanks a mill

ChocolateSauce

All I'll say here is that bioethanol isn't all it's cracked up to be. It isn't nearly as efficient as was originally thought, it pushes up food prices and brings hardship to the third world, and is generally only slightly better than natural gas.

Go gas.

derry

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

All I'll say here is that bioethanol isn't all it's cracked up to be. It isn't nearly as efficient as was originally thought, it pushes up food prices and brings hardship to the third world, and is generally only slightly better than natural gas.

Go gas.

Black Propaganda from oil companies
Links supplied below but ROI has lots of land that can produce Etahanol products without even using good farming land so food prices in ROI wont go up
Ethanol presently in ROI is made from waste products from milk production that would normally be binned
Ethanol can be made from sugar beet which we always grew and stopped growing because the government sold out the farmers
There are lots of other ways to make Ethanol in ROI
Ethanol is a alcohol product made from fermentation and then distilled and then passed through a fine filter to produce 99.5% ethanol

It has god points and bad points
It has nearly as much heat as oil products
It has no odour that i know of


Its flamable a whole lot less than petrol
But its much more flamable than Diesel
Big amounts exceeding 100 liters might need special house insurance policy gallons

But the price fixing regime that is rip off republic means you can stick Ethanol up your pipe and smoke it

The problem in ROI is some sort of bizzare system make the product which should cost less than E1 .00 a liter cost at least 3.41 per liter a if you buy 100 liters of it and a lot more if you buy less

It doesn't make sense price wise as E85 fuel in Maxol garage charges E1.00 for a liter and that is 85% Ethanol 15% petrol which suggest pure Etahanol should cost E0.90c per liter

That makes using Ethanol heating solutions about 3 times more costly than ESB electricity or any oil alternitves

If you can source Ethanol for about E1.00 per liter it would be an excelent solution for heating in ROI
WE can grow it from bio mass sources keep Irish employed and reduce imports of oil products

If you do know sources of Ethanol for E1.00 per liter let me know as I also want to convert ot 100% ethanol heating and I also run my non flex fuel car on E85 and having fuel at home would be handy if there is a fuel shortage

LInks are more fore E85 but a lot of the info is still usefull

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055369646

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055307709




Derry

ChocolateSauce

derry wrote: »

Black Propaganda from oil companies
Links supplied below but ROI has lots of land that can produce Etahanol products without even using good farming land so food prices in ROI wont go up
Ethanol presently in ROI is made from waste products from milk production that would normally be binned
Ethanol can be made from sugar beet which we always grew and stopped growing because the government sold out the farmers
There are lots of other ways to make Ethanol in ROI
Ethanol is a alcohol product made from fermentation and then distilled and then passed through a fine filter to produce 99.5% ethanol

It has god points and bad points
It has nearly as much heat as oil products
It has no odour that i know of


Its flamable a whole lot less than petrol
But its much more flamable than Diesel
Big amounts exceeding 100 liters might need special house insurance policy gallons

But the price fixing regime that is rip off republic means you can stick Ethanol up your pipe and smoke it

The problem in ROI is some sort of bizzare system make the product which should cost less than E1 .00 a liter cost at least 3.41 per liter a if you buy 100 liters of it and a lot more if you buy less

It doesn't make sense price wise as E85 fuel in Maxol garage charges E1.00 for a liter and that is 85% Ethanol 15% petrol which suggest pure Etahanol should cost E0.90c per liter

That makes using Ethanol heating solutions about 3 times more costly than ESB electricity or any oil alternitves

If you can source Ethanol for about E1.00 per liter it would be an excelent solution for heating in ROI
WE can grow it from bio mass sources keep Irish employed and reduce imports of oil products

If you do know sources of Ethanol for E1.00 per liter let me know as I also want to convert ot 100% ethanol heating and I also run my non flex fuel car on E85 and having fuel at home would be handy if there is a fuel shortage

LInks are more fore E85 but a lot of the info is still usefull

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055369646

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055307709




Derry

Yes, all that science is nothing but propaganda from evil oil companies. It couldn't possibly be based on emperical data collected and analysed by people who know what they're talking about.

ShivNio

Hi, I have a bioethanol-burning stove from a German company called Hark.
Did you end up installing bioethanol-burning heating?
I'm trying to find a cheaper source for the bioethanol.. they charge rediculous prices for it in normal retailers.

sharkyus

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

All I'll say here is that bioethanol isn't all it's cracked up to be. It isn't nearly as efficient as was originally thought, it pushes up food prices and brings hardship to the third world

Opinion

"A more recent example is the widely disseminated claim that Europe’s consumption of biodiesel has caused deforestation and destruction of natural habitats in Indonesia and Malaysia to clear the way for the production of palm oil. In fact, insignificant amounts of palm oil have been used in biodiesel production – an estimated 30 000 tons in 2005. By
contrast, global palm oil production grew by nearly 10 million tons between 2001/02 and 2005/06. This increase has been driven by the food market, not the biofuel market."
Source: European Commission Biofuels Progress Report 2007
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/energy_policy/doc/07_biofuels_progress_report_en.pdf

Fact


Also, according to an Article written by the OECD entitled Food Vrs. Fuel (i can find the source if you really want!):
The rise in commodities (food stocks) would have happened without biofuels. In the lead up to the rise, the main grain producing countries had a shortfall of grain production of 60 million t. The rise in demand due to biofuels ws 15mt. At the same time demand from developing countries increased.

Fact

I have loads more facts i can dig out for you if you really want - or if i have time!

derry

sharkyus wrote: »

Opinion

"A more recent example is the widely disseminated claim that Europe’s consumption of biodiesel has caused deforestation and destruction of natural habitats in Indonesia and Malaysia to clear the way for the production of palm oil. In fact, insignificant amounts of palm oil have been used in biodiesel production – an estimated 30 000 tons in 2005. By
contrast, global palm oil production grew by nearly 10 million tons between 2001/02 and 2005/06. This increase has been driven by the food market, not the biofuel market."
Source: European Commission Biofuels Progress Report 2007
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/energy_policy/doc/07_biofuels_progress_report_en.pdf

Fact


Also, according to an Article written by the OECD entitled Food Vrs. Fuel (i can find the source if you really want!):
The rise in commodities (food stocks) would have happened without biofuels. In the lead up to the rise, the main grain producing countries had a shortfall of grain production of 60 million t. The rise in demand due to biofuels ws 15mt. At the same time demand from developing countries increased.

Fact

I have loads more facts i can dig out for you if you really want - or if i have time!

thanks but no thanks

Our friend ChocolateSauce I saw the other day claims to be scientist in the field .Typical of his type he speaks from on high down to us joe soaps who just want to find practical solutions to our our energy needs without being shafted by the energy giants who sponsor scientists to warp the data to prove Bio fuels don't work

Well my answer that is bio fuel worked for the last thirty years in Brazil on 2% of thier land and the energy giants hate this truth as it flys in the face of the seriously distorted data that they pay a bucket load of scientists to spout against bio fuels

So for ChocolateSauce the Brazilians know what they are talking about

Bio fuels are not easy but givin the right tax structure like Brazil made which make oil imports to expensive they can operate well here and employ a lot of unemployed farmers .These are the same farmers who are sitting on 1/3 of the prime farming land in ROI and are not allowed to grow anything on it for reasons that EU made up which help to boost oil and energy imports to ROI

Bio ethanol pure 100% has the problem you can drink it so the government charge extra steep tax to stop you ordering it for heating and then ending up skunked on the tap that supplies the fireplaces:eek:

E85 works but stinks from the 15% petrol added to the fuel
Denatured Ethanol (methalated spirts )which is ~15% methanol toxic alcohol and 85% ethanol could work as well 100% ethanol but the prices in ROI are off the wall.Its also a big issue to find pipes and fitting that can tolerate both methanol and ethanol

Bio diesel would probably be better for it better heat output but the odour like a the local chipper might be an issue

If somebody does source suitable priced 100% ethanol let me know as Bio ethanol heating is definitly a most interesting way to go if the fuel prices are correct.




Derry

ShivNio

Hi, after much research into sourcing bioethanol in Ireland, I've ended up just importing a pallet's worth of it from Germany, at ca. 1.70 €/litre and a consumption of 1-2 litres per day (in freezing weather, otherwise 0-1 litre per day, our stove uses about 0.3-0.5 litres per hour). My lovely stove is burning as I type and it's a delight and giving off a lovely gentle heat, especially nice as we didn't need to install a chimney flue or anything to have it (runs on the oxygen in the room and gives off no smoke/smell).
Apparently bioethanol producers in Ireland have difficulty selling it to end-consumers because of out-of-date customs regulations (anyone buying ethanol directly from the manufacturers here needs special customs permission) but importing it from the EU gets around this loophole. A shame really since bioethanol from Ireland is more environmentally friendly, being made as a by-product of cheese production rather than through the fermentation of plant materials.
Bioethanol fires for the home are big business in Germany (where I lived for 10 years until moving back last year), I don't know if you could heat an entire home with it though. Generally Bioethanol fires are sold as decorative items for the home with the heat given off as an extra bonus.
Hope that helps anyone who is interested

derry

Wonderball ser good heis
or wonderful to have good heat
That is excellent information for me .

I want to get rid of the gas or oil solutions.I am probably going to pursue this solution as the main easy quick heating solution for me with no need to do big chimeneys . I can use back up electric solutions when absolutely needed . Still a tad expensive in fuel running costs compared to other solutions like oil or gas at todays low oil and gas prices. Oil would be about ~1 euro a liter in this time.But gas and oil require big capital outlay in terms of boilers and fitted heaters . Certainly a possible solution for those with small apartments or small houses.I will probably be downsizing a lot the size of the house and this might work for me.I might have an issue of where to store the fuel in terms of the house Insurance and storing it in the garage.I might need to make a new outhouse bunker out of bricks to suit a pallet .
I did germany also for a year but never saw the alcohol heater there.It was in Africa I saw them for different things like lights and fridges

Can you supply the german www address for Ethanol supplies

Thanks

ShivNio

derry wrote: »

Wonderball ser good heis
or wonderful to have good heat

or "Wunderschön, eine gute Wärme zu haben"
We got our stove from http://www.hark-shop.de and love it - it's one similar to the Asco model (ours is black though), has a big stone on top which slowly releases the heat. There are much cheaper models out there though, just look on http://www.ebay.de for example (type in "ethanol kamin").
We imported our ethanol from here: http://www.shop.energieprofis.net/
We bought about 250 litres which is about 1 year's supply, in recyclable 1 litre bottles (cheaper than transporting in larger canisters because the 1 litre bottle size doesn't require being labelled as hazardous, and less messy to fill the stove with ). You wouldn't require much storage space, all of our bottles are at present in the under-stair space and only taking up half the room at that, you'd be surprised how easily you can store 250 litre bottles . They were delivered in 8 boxes containing 30 bottles each.

Húrin

derry wrote: »

Black Propaganda from oil companies
Links supplied below but ROI has lots of land that can produce Etahanol products without even using good farming land so food prices in ROI wont go up

You don't understand economics. If the fuel fetches a higher price per acre than food crops do, farmers will use their good land to grow the fuel crop. Thus, food prices can go up.

I'm not writing this for you. I know that you will disregard everything that disagrees with you. I write it so that you don't fool anyone with your lies.

ShivNio

Hurin that might be true for bioethanol produced from arable-farmed plant materials, but this is not the only source of bioethanol (and also not the most effective). Bioethanol in Ireland for example is produced by the company Carbery, which ferments waste lactose produced during the production of cheese and distills it to bioethanol, so they are not causing any competition for land for edible farming. Bioethanol can in fact be produced from a number of organic sugars, not just cellulose, and even here there are other practical crops which would give a more human/environmentally friendly option than maize or sugar cane, e.g. grass or even algae produced in "algae farms", which look similar to solar panels (see here: http://www.algaeforbiofuels.com/), some of which even consume sewerage in the process. The whole industry is still very much in an infant phase, and there are many options available which should not affect food prices.

derry

Húrin wrote: »

You don't understand economics. If the fuel fetches a higher price per acre than food crops do, farmers will use their good land to grow the fuel crop. Thus, food prices can go up.

I'm not writing this for you. I know that you will disregard everything that disagrees with you. I write it so that you don't fool anyone with your lies.

Wow somebody must be winding up your spring:D
any way seeing as your so into wanting links here is a bone to pick on link
I got millions of links but many links prove nothing and can often change or get removed in a dynamic WWW enviorement

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id31.html

Highlights are printed below in the quote "running_on_alcohol.tripod.com" for those who don't want to wade through all the link so reproduced for fair use educational value .

But as a friend said to me who has two 60 year old cousins in Co. Meath with 500 acres of prime land doing nothing.His two cousins since they were 40 years old 20 years ago have been paid by the EU for the last twenty years to grow nothing at all.They are now officialy retired and after living the life of Rielly for 20 years are hardly likely to start farming anything food or fuel.The problem is they are not unique so if we assume that farming anything is ever going to happen in Ireland then the whole debate is waste of time.

Then also the other issue is everything shows that Hurin doesn't like Bio fuels because they produce the same amount of CO2 as oil based fuels.Based on his perceived negitive quality of Bio Fuels for C02 emissions Hurin will try to drag up every red herring reason not to change to Bio fuels.Not everybody in the planet figures CO2 is going to cook our goose in the next few days or that CO2 is the main culpit for global warming

Me I am more pragmatic if we going to make CO2 emission we might as well make Irish home grown emissions if we can find any farmers who still will actually decide to farm given that they probably can get more money for not farming.


My argument for Bio fuels is only for ROI home grown bio fuels without any imports from elsewhere .Bio fuels in other countries positive or negitive effects on food prices are not a debate I wish to enter where there can sometimes be food versus fuel issues and are probably to complex for this forum to look at .I just refuse to allow some third world country which suffers from negitive effects from Bio Fuel food price issue argument dictate that ROI with gobs of land doing sqaut should influence the decisions of the ROI to make our own home grown fuels.
Also if ROI isn't allowed to produce Bio fuels localy by EU regulations or similar there exists the risks that we will be forced to import them from other countries. Often big multinational have bought all the prime land in third world countries to grow bio fuels and we in the ROI will just swop our oil iimports to Bio fuel imports. A strong ROI bio fuels industry here will protect us better fro forced bio fuel imports than having no bio fuel in ROI policy .

But due to stupid ROI rules it is nessary maybe to import from Germany as stop gap

running_on_alcohol.tripod.com wrote:

Fuel vs. Food

Take a look at this page for the Canadian Renewable Fuels Association.

http://www.greenfuels.org/ethafood.html

First of all, you get 2 to 4 times more energy from alcohol fuel than the energy it takes to produce it. But the main thing in terms of fuel vs. food is that fermenting grains and then distilling out the ethanol leaves you with a higher protein feedstock than the original grain itself: it is easier for milk cows to digest it, and the extra protein comes from the fact that nutritional yeast organisms were grown. It is sold as Distillers Dried Grains (DDG) and gets a higher price per kilo than raw grain, so this makes economic sense, too.
Have you ever bought nutritional yeast in a health food store and sprinkled it on a salad or on popcorn? It is delicious! English folks love their Marmite spread on toast: another yeast product from the brewing industry. This is an acquired taste, perhaps, but it is high in B vitamins.

This group, Food First, points out in their work, The Myth of Scarcity that there is more than enough grain to feed the worlds 5 billion people. It is usually the problems of war, of dictators, and of the insanities of Globalism which makes people grow cash crops instead of food crops they could use locally, creating the horrible shortages creating malnutrition and starvation.
12 Myths About Hunger
http://www.foodfirst.org/pubs/backgrdrs/1998/s98v5n3.html

Also, a lot of corn goes unused and could be made into ethanol instead of rotting. See: http://www.news.wisc.edu/view.html?get=6810

this isn't so bad a link from USA farmers pro for bio fuels
http://www.greenfuels.org/files/EthanolAcrossAmericaEthanolEconomicsFall08.pdf

and the pic is the graph of oil price versus corn prices from which it seems that corn prices are still fairly flat compared to oil prices

Derry

Bluedeacon

No, I live in Iowa - the tall corn state - and I can tell you that E85 is 85% alcohol! BTW, most of the year it's $1.85/gallon here (not sure how that converts) while "ethanol" (85-90% Petrol, 10-15% ethanol) is currently $2.85/gallon - but the kicker is, this is harvest time and the staion down the way has E85 for $.85/gallon right now. Corn is cheap and we can own stills for making our own alcohol; my cousin uses the corn stalks and cobs so that he does not have to use the corn itself to power his equipment.

gizmo555

ShivNio wrote: »

My lovely stove is burning as I type and it's a delight and giving off a lovely gentle heat, especially nice as we didn't need to install a chimney flue or anything to have it (runs on the oxygen in the room and gives off no smoke/smell).

:eek:

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE - Make sure you understand the ventilation requirements to run the stove safely and if you haven't already, install a carbon monoxide alarm in the room. Carbon monoxide is a killer!

Read more here: http://www.carbonmonoxide.ie/

Ghost Estate

ethanol fireplace is just for if you don't have a chimney i think. fuel is very expensive

if you have a chimney you might as well burn a few lumps of dead tree.

it smells a bit like methylated spirit

freddyuk

gizmo555 wrote: »

:eek:

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE - Make sure you understand the ventilation requirements to run the stove safely and if you haven't already, install a carbon monoxide alarm in the room. Carbon monoxide is a killer!

Read more here: http://www.carbonmonoxide.ie/

I think you will need a carbon dioxide alarm!! You will get carbon dioxide and water i think.

garancafan

ShivNio wrote: »

We bought about 250 litres.....all of our bottles are at present in the under-stair space

I presume all of your fuel has, by now, been transferred out of your dwelling. If not, I presume you have sorted this out with your house insurance company.

Ghost Estate

garancafan wrote: »

I presume all of your fuel has, by now, been transferred out of your dwelling. If not, I presume you have sorted this out with your house insurance company.

????

gizmo555

freddyuk wrote: »

I think you will need a carbon dioxide alarm!! You will get carbon dioxide and water i think.

You get carbon dioxide and water if there is sufficient ventilation. If there isn't, you get carbon monoxide and water and in the worst case, you die.

Ghost Estate wrote: »

????

Picture 250 litres of petrol under your stairs and the fire hazard that would present.

freddyuk

OK so please elaborate slightly. How much air is required to avoid the carbon monoxide problem? In an average situation would there be a risk ie. not a completely sealed Eco house with no natural ventilation.
At what point is there insufficient air to complete combustion and would you still be breathing?

gizmo555

freddyuk wrote: »

OK so please elaborate slightly. How much air is required to avoid the carbon monoxide problem?

That depends on the type of appliance, it should be set out in the instructions. Personally, I would also want a carbon monoxide alarm in every room which contains any kind of fuel-burning appliance. I have three in my house - one in the utility room where my oil central heating boiler is and two others where I have solid fuel stoves installed.

freddyuk wrote: »

In an average situation would there be a risk ie. not a completely sealed Eco house with no natural ventilation.

ABSOLUTELY! See, for example, this report on the deaths this summer of two teenage boys in Derry this summer from carbon monoxide poisoning. Note that the report concludes by saying on average there are 50 such deaths annually in the UK, so pro rata there are probably 4 to 6 here in Ireland. There was a death two years ago in the Mayo town I live in, where a central heating boiler leaked fumes into a bedroom.

Carbon monoxide can also cause chronic ill-health at low levels, creating symptoms such as severe headaches, nausea and fatigue.

freddyuk wrote: »

At what point is there insufficient air to complete combustion and would you still be breathing?

You really need to read www.carbonmonoxide.ie and take the appropriate steps for your home situation.

Ghost Estate

gizmo555 wrote: »

Picture 250 litres of petrol under your stairs and the fire hazard that would present.

depends on the house i suppose. I'd put em in the shed myself, but if he wants to take the little bit of a risk I'm not too pushed.

gizmo555

Ghost Estate wrote: »

if he wants to take the little bit of a risk I'm not too pushed.

You may not be, but as previously suggested, the house insurer certainly would be.

zajdoo

Would love if some of you that have these would let me know how you find them now?
I am thinking of changing our gas fire to one as the price of gas is soooo expensive.
Where did you get yours from or are there only a few local reps in Ireland for them???
Would love any info thanks so much

ShivNio

gizmo555 wrote: »

:eek:

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE - Make sure you understand the ventilation requirements to run the stove safely and if you haven't already, install a carbon monoxide alarm in the room. Carbon monoxide is a killer!

Read more here: http://www.carbonmonoxide.ie/

:rolleyes: honestly, slightly overdramatic aren't we.

A bioethanol stove does not have the same oxygen consumption as a car motor running in your living room or an unventilated coal fire. It's primarily a decorative item, consuming about the same amount of oxygen as four or five large candles, and incidently giving off about the same amount of heat. It's basically equivalent to burning a litre of vodka over the period of 3 hours, in a large room (and yes we have adequate ventilation anyway, our house being installed with gas central heating and 2 traditional fireplaces).
As for the other wilting violets concerned about storage, the bottles are now happily stored in the shed. Once again though we're not talking about cans of rocket fuel here, it's ethanol, alcohol - same as you'd find in whiskey or vodka, with exactly the same burning power. Infact ethanol burns at quite a low temperature, if some of you may remember from school science lessons or from flaming cocktails in bars or crepes suzette (you can have flaming ethanol on your skin without your skin burning) so it's hardly going to immediately result in crowds of house insurers turning up and going "Oh noooessss!)/§$/(&)=!" or they'll be banging down my alcoholic neighbours' door whenever they hit the off-license for exactly the same reason.

ShivNio

Ghost Estate wrote: »

it smells a bit like methylated spirit

Nope, burning methylated spirit smells like methylated spirits, burning bioethanol has no smell at all - same as burning a shot of vodka.

niallkkk

ShivNio wrote: »

Hi, after much research into sourcing bioethanol in Ireland, I've ended up just importing a pallet's worth of it from Germany, at ca. 1.70 €/litre and a consumption of 1-2 litres per day (in freezing weather, otherwise 0-1 litre per day, our stove uses about 0.3-0.5 litres per hour). My lovely stove is burning as I type and it's a delight and giving off a lovely gentle heat, especially nice as we didn't need to install a chimney flue or anything to have it (runs on the oxygen in the room and gives off no smoke/smell).
Apparently bioethanol producers in Ireland have difficulty selling it to end-consumers because of out-of-date customs regulations (anyone buying ethanol directly from the manufacturers here needs special customs permission) but importing it from the EU gets around this loophole. A shame really since bioethanol from Ireland is more environmentally friendly, being made as a by-product of cheese production rather than through the fermentation of plant materials.
Bioethanol fires for the home are big business in Germany (where I lived for 10 years until moving back last year), I don't know if you could heat an entire home with it though. Generally Bioethanol fires are sold as decorative items for the home with the heat given off as an extra bonus.
Hope that helps anyone who is interested

hi.do u know any good places i could buy a bio fire?

uli84

Hi, has anybody got a cheap source of bioethanol? Thanks!

djpbarry

Please don't drag up old threads to ask semi-relevant questions.