Oil giants will try to supress choice of flex fuel

maniac101 wrote:

So where do you think all that ethanol is going to come from if it's not going to be imported? Do you have any idea how much ethanol you're talking about? Only the tiniest proportion of it can be produced from dairy by-products, as in the case of Maxol E85. There's a biofuels target of 5.75% of all transport fuels for 2010, but even that target now looks unrealistic with current technologies. Your 50% figure is fantasy, - well for now at least.

Really we are not talking 50% next week ........

But properly planned 50% of petrol demands and 50% of transport diesel demands is within twenty years possible
(with proper planning and farming suitable crops like sugar beet and rape oil)

Transport is 1/3 rd of oil demands in Ireland so we are aiming for 1/6th of the overall fuel demands

Electricity demands are like 50% of the overall imports of fuels both oil and gas

Quick growing forests like every 5 year old crop of trees to be cropped could supply in twenty years 50% of that 50% figure
So from that we would now have 25% of the total electricity from fuel imports for electric power generation

These rapid rotation crop pine tree farms or similar can grow on scrappy land and doesn't need prime farm land

Wind farms which now supply ~13% could be ramped up to 40% and spread around from north Ireland to south Ireland
(particularly out at sea location offshore where wind is stronger )

This can ensure 10% of that wind power will always work as the wind will exist somewhere in Ireland on most days (Stastically)

So 1/6th +1/4 +1/10= ~45% independence from fuel or oil imports

Also if the tax put on oil fuels was increased at 10% plus increments per year the incentive to keep big gas guzzeler 4X4 and giant SUV cars would drop and smaller more trifty cars would become more popular

It a combination of conservation of fuels to increasing the the amount of home grown renewable options

Renewable means not including drilling for oil or gas which even if we found them in Ireland the brown envelope lot would pre sell it and we wouldn't see squat of that oil or gas

maniac101 wrote:

derry wrote:

Ireland might need to use 20% of the country but we let 20% of farming land do nothing to clear the EU mountians of food so whats the problem

Another figure plucked from the air, I think. Less than 15% if Ireland's land is arable. So how can you use 20% of land for growing biofuels if less than 15% is suitable for crops and is already being used to grow food? Kinda puts your 50% figure above into perspective.

hair splitting stuff

This is a forum and sometimes I have to work fro figure remembered from previous debates and I am not a paid research guy

Look I am not a farming expert or even renewable fuel expert

Just comparing so called backward Brazil which does so why cant so called advanced Ireland

20% equasion
What I mean to say is 20% of the arable land which is maybe some 15% of all the land so we are talking ((15%/100)*20) or ~=3% of Irish land total

We might for climate reasons and huge amounts of energy demands require maybe ~5 % of total land of the that arable land for high sugar type cellose crops like sugar beet and rape seed

We might need 30% of the scrappy land which is maybe 50% of Ireland so ~=15% to be fast rotation tree crops for electric production

We might also need a few more % of less good lands like semi bogs to grow bamboo or long grasses as extra fuel sources

Unfortunetly all evidence to date for water to grow algae fuels looks to be a non starter

Its something to do with a a few sun protons are needed to strike the algae to make sugar and the sun protons cant penertrate the deep water water so well

Multi stacking just reduces the protons hitting the Algae so production goes down

Algae grown in water farms been compared to close to perpetual motion solutions

probe wrote: »

The base Prius is €27,005 in Ireland – not €40,000 as you suggest.

Going from memory of the figure from 2001 when I last ran the numbers
The Hybrid Pruis running costs compared to small compact would be still mad money but run the numbers how you want for yourself

Even a small diesel compact car will often be ahead of Hybrid Pruis for most jo soaps with 15,000 miles per year when you factor in replacing cars every three years and real world capital costs depreciation are factored in

Fuel is still a lesser factored element in running costs even at 1.30 a liter in Ireland

Germany is more like 1.70 a liter

Bio fuels in Irealnd at 0.99 cents it would take a long time to get back 5000 euros extra premium costs added onto new cars with flex fuel mark up prices just to rip your face

So its vital that the government stops any signs of car sales gouging of car prices from Flex fuel new cars and keep the incentives for flex fuel cars for road tax etc

But Irish consumers protection is like a open ended condom probably due to brown envelope passing hands

NO FRIIGGIN USE PERIOD

Consumers are screwwwwed periodd

probe wrote: »

However if we are going to reduce the ethics of our transportation choice to fuel consumed costs and similar, we are not going to get anywhere – because new technologies need volume to reduce costs. The only way to build up the volume is for consumers who can afford it, to buy into the technology, and get the ball rolling.

In any event you are ignoring the price and availability trends of liquid fuels over the forthcoming decade. May I suggest that you listen to this interview if you have not done so already?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055372964

really

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055372964

this is based on the end of the world is nigh and oil and gas is running out

When I was kid in the Sixties living through local fuel crisis the oil was peaking even then

Oil production has been peaking since 1911 when the first few fields were running out

Then when I worked on oil rigs in the north sea in the late 70s oil was peaking then

Having studied the subject all the indicators suggest oil will not run out for hundreds of years and gas could be more than a thousand years

Coal reserves are proven to be at least 500 years

The only issue is the amount of energy to extract oil and crack it might increase incremently over the decades

We use best case 20% of the oil to get it to the petrol station often 30%.
( total energy used for extraction and shipping and cracking and tankering to forecourts or consumers whatever)

As each 10 years goes along this might increase to 32% and 34% and so forth as oil gets extracted from more deeper oil wells or lesser producing oil fields

Even that is not for sure as they could still find even more huge fields as they haven't drilled 0.00001% of the planet searching for oil or gas

New week magazine this week shows that Ethanol production even with low rate corn first generation crops is similar 30% energy to get it to the fuel tank

Brazil does better with sugar cane and no near no oil imports so it can be done

link explains brazils bio fuel sugar cane ethanol history and production
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_in_Brazil

Intersting to note from 1979 to 1986 about ~75 % of cars were on E100 or E25 fuels

But ethanol production would always generally remain 30% energy to produce it
This might in time improve to closer to 20% who knows maybe even better

No brainer oil is close to dead not because we are running out of it

Oil is getting the heave ho shove from alternitives as oil is seen as what it really is ,a energy trap of incremently diminishing unstable supply's that always causes major shocks to the system every twenty years

THE STONE AGE DIDN'T STOP BECAUSE THEY RAN OUT OF STONES

This hell of the very polluting oil age will stop eventually

Expect the death of oil to be dragged out especially in Ireland from brown envelope brigades of brown nosers who will block flex fuel solutions :mad:

We should import a Brazilian president of Ireland to head up Bio fuels:cool:

That would put the shakers up the brown envelope brigade that its not just Polish who can replace joe soap Irish workers but others can replace greedy polititions :P

probe wrote: »

My basic suggestion to you was to convert a Prius to a plug in hybrid by increasing the battery capacity, so that it would give one enough range to do your daily commute without using liquid fuel, which is an idea for people living in one off housing and rural areas in particular. If you live in an urban area, use public transport instead – and spend some of your time lobbying for a better quality integrated system to replace the current shambolic non-system, which is nothing more than transport for peasants.

yeah in theory it works
Back to the fact bigger battery makes capital costs rise a lot
the batterys are either expensive NiMh hydides of 2000 cycle or 150,000 mile life
I can safely assume it adds on 10,000 euro to basic hybrid in todays Irish car market to have double the cappasity with NiMH types and make plug in hybrids electric vehiciles ( PHEV)

Or even more expensive Lipos or liFe phoshate types which are very pricey presently

Your looking at ten years to get plug in Hybrid elctric PHEV cars cost down to compact car prices like E18,000 in todays money equivalent and ten more years for every car to be a plug in hybrid type PHEV

yes we would gain 80% saving on liquid fuels that exist today .....:D
Eg car will cost 20% the cost to run per mile in fuel costs than liquid fuels....

BUT >>>>>Not taking into account capital costs of batteries wear and tear and replacement costs which reduces that figure to similar to more similar liquid fuels solutions:eek: with todays solutions in PB lead acid , Lipo , LiFE or NiMH solutions
Anoter five years we can expect improvements

But jie soaps want solutions today for the car they own now or the car they will get tommorow
in Brazil they have it
They started out we will remove oil imports and all cars will use bio fuels within a few years

They proved within a few years in the old fashioned late 1970s era irt could be done
They still do it

Oil companies hate it
Car sales companies don't like it and don't tell most people thier standard car is probably a flex fuel car thrown in as a freebee

That would affect the resales of new cars with flex fuels

probe wrote: »

Most electricity in Ireland does not come from oil. While the ESB morons will do everything in their power to screw up green energy production from growing (because the zero fuel cost of green energy will become more economically valuable as oil, gas and coal prices increase over time), an electric motor is far more efficient than an internal combustion engine.

Internal combustion engine 30% efficiency at the shaft
Drive shaft losses drag etc highway best case 15% global
traffic expect more like 7% efficiency global

30% lost efficiency delivering fuel to car on the fore court pumps

so 60% of 7% ~5% global efficiency

Hybrids can double that back to 10%

PHEV can double that again to 20%

all ball park

Gas powered 7 stage electric power in Holland 1990 acheived 87% efficiency peak

three times a internal combustion engine
Peak loads over a 24 hour day makes more like ~60% global power
( eg lots of power wasted at night )

Transmission loses ~10%

So ~50% efficiency at the wall socket in the house in Holland

In Ireland more like ~40%

Power loses to store power in batteries for PHEV ~50% losses

So ~20% power gets to batterys in PHEV in Ireland

Car electric motor ~80% effient

so global power return ~15%

However PHEV probably charges of the wall at night and uses power that is being wasted anyway
So more like ~25% global efficiency when everything is factored in

5% for liquid fuels versus 25% for PHEV is not bad from oil, coal, Natural gas mix of stations .



In the real world most cars will really be closer to ~3% global efficiency (97% wasted)

Most hybrids will be closer to ~8% global efficiency (93% wasted)

Most PHEV will be closer to ~15% global efficiency (85% wasted)

But bio fuel run power stations have issues to consider

Quick rotation crops have lower heat and much lower global returns in power stations typically 50% of the other fuels ( that might improve to 75% over time )

Expect figures for PHEV in this time from that power source of electricity to drop to closer to ~5 %

Matches more closely liquid fuels from ethanol or bio fuels

There is no magic bullet

It will be more of a multi pronged attack on several fronts to get solutions that work best for all of Ireland

PHEV will suit some situations in the future and will be the majority in twenty years time but have issues as Ireland doesn't make batteries for cars

For now we can Kick start everything with todays cars now with Ethanol and just copy the Brazilian model dated and all as it is is

Ethanol and bio fuels works NOW TODAY

Very quickly this will keep money in Ireland to do more bio fuels

probe wrote: »

While some biofuel comes as a bi-product of the dairy food processing business in Ireland, I remain to be convinced about the net benefits of growing crops for energy (first generation biofuels). There may be some benefits from algae based bio fuels when the technology is fully developed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i82CXQX4yq4

.probe

The oil companies want to prove first generation crops don't work when they actually do

yeah for the UK with 4 times our population density it might not work for the UK

But Ireland has lots of land and half of under used so we can reach high bio fuel replacement without losing too much food production and reduce our dependence on arabs and Russian oil or gas and eventually kick those evil SOB oil companies :pac::pac::pac::pac: out of Ireland for good

Algae issue already covered as non starter

A Wiki link here on Bio fuel s world wide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel

Derry

I can go with the sun stuff

Sun light hitting the earth every hour in watts total is something like 20,000 times all the total power used like electric oil gas neclear and hydro that is used on the entire earth each hour

1000 watts per sgare meter solar power exists on the equator at midday from memory

But apart from solar tower or solar magnifer staion or large solar panels in suitable solar regions of the world I dont think its a solution for Ireland any time soon

Eventualy then maybe 2080 the Fusion power will arive and no more power issues

God help Irealnd if we ever get suckerded into to taking a neclear power station fecking ejits for sure here will make it blow its stack and possibly lose several counties for thousands of years

You cant dezine around complete ejits that live here and the dumbed down science degree they dish out to bimbos

Ireland should stick to music and peotry and let the other big countries like France and USA do neclear as they can afford to lose big chunks of thier countries if they make a balls of it

We only got a small Island and I dont want to see it get smaller

But the Brown envelope dip sticks want tneclear here ASAP as there is lots of brown envelopes from that dumb solution

They now have ensured to install a very pro neclear power chief in charge of ESB
next its all universitiers will be pro neclear heads of the colleges

It s the neclear cancer in the form of brown envelopes and science in Ireland would sell thier grandma for 10 cents

Next step neclear so they need to wipe out Alternitives as that ruins brown envelopes

We now know most the money ever made in Ireland and is from importing stuff into Ireland and is mostly made within the brown envelope packers who make the rules in the Dail that favour their activities

I ant no green lover but Gormley must beat his brains out with green ideas that go down within the pack of hyenas like soft drinks at a piss up

I saw greens on telly today puishing renewables

Its like watching a babe in the forest being eaten by the wolfs that have brown envelopes to collect

Solutions exist but the powers to be dont think past the next election and how renewables will make them voted back in

Without the connect renewables makes votes renewables probably wont happen any time soon in Ireland and we will be the last of the oil importers in the planet when the rest of the planet is on renewables

Bio fuels in Irealnd could bring the whole Carlow region back into full sugar beet production what they always did for donkey years so it not taking land away from food use

Lots of farming regions are very under used and growing fuel crops will help bring some money back to farming

I myself am only interested in solutions that work for Ireland

If that helps other countries fine but I think the solutions are different for many countries

We have lots of wind so that is worth investing in and it proven to work

We have some tidal power but its unknown quantity in this time

ESB is fighting tooth and nail to block bio fuel solutions as they want push button Neclear solutions and big brain farts in small counrty and enslave Ireland for thousands of years protecting spent fuels an decommissining stations and importing scarce neclear fuels

Bio fuel can employ lots of Irish people in the country side and helps to stop the urban drive that is in full march

Bio fuel indepence from imported fuels would mean we be a better bet for investing in as we would be more power secure than even if we found oil or gas feilds


The aircraft food importing is a accident of the fuel improvements in aircrafts

O,lder aircraft used a lot of fuel
the new planes same size use 1/3 of the fuel now
that same 2/33 space i now used for cargo

A Budjet airliner can now carry enough cargo to cover maybe more half the costs so less problems if the load factor of passengers drops off

Frozen good or refriderated goods need lots of energy to remain in good shape
If the goods fly quickly less fuel for keeping it cooler than if they go on a slow ship[
A slow ship uses less fuel to get there but more fuel to keep goods cold

Planes can use less fuel globaly in the qhole speed weight power ratio

The new biggerplanes like A380 willcarry 500 passengers and get about 90 miles to the gallon of fuel per passenger seat
( which compares very well to cars at average of 30MPG and equal the average car with three passengers )
It will also carry the same cargo as a cargo 737 in the hold some ~30 tons about the same as most 40 feet truck containers
The fuel will for that container equvalent be similar to a truck in term of MPG equivalents and will get there at 650 MPH a whole lot faster than a truck

I cant fault planes on average for carying cargo in space that once wa only for fuel
Smaller planes like 737 for cargo might be a bit wasteful but as more bigger planes come out like 800 seat A380 and 1000 seat A380 we see even more fuel effiency per passenger and still cary gobs of cargo

Some of the older planes that carry cargo are bit in the fuel guzzelers region but as regulations force them to re-engine with newwer better engines even some of those can return better fuel figures that are respectable

Air cargo is complex issue and need a lot of government inputs to figure out where the bad wastes is to be found but not all of the practice of air cargo is that wasefull
Too complex an issue for me to figure out



We are presently now entering the downward spiral in oil costs possibley a few hicups in 2009 but buy 2012 it will be probably be back to $60 a barrrel and will stay there for probably 15 years
Then the oil companies suddenly find "oh that oil feild had way more oil than we thought "
Also the new Brazil Atlantic feilds are found to enermous in sizes
Even the west african Atlantic oil feilds are found to be humungous
Gobs of oil for decdes to come
The oil companies know these fact year ago but the peak oil was a chancce to ramp up prices and gouge everybody
Suckers born every day

History repaets itself again and again and again
Ireland can cut it enslavement to oil if we decide to....

but the brown envelops seem to rule the roost

Derry







'

SeanW wrote: »

Derry, your posts are waaaaay too long and ranty, some of the figures you use have been shown to be nonsense, and in particular after your threads on here about nuclear energy and Co. Leitrim, as well as your contribution on Politics about the Government disbanding before Christmas, really I'm having a hard time coming up with any reasons to take you seriously. Not, tbh, that I ever did.

You do realise that the bulk of Irish generating plant is natural gas fired?

That and your spelling is f**kawful.
Really, I don't want to get ad-hominem here, but is there any lame, half baked conspiracy theory that you haven't invented or swallowed whole? Or are you just desperate for attention?

Thanks for the fan mail reply



Here are the threads you refer to all closed by mods possibly
because too many brain cells needed to be used to follow the threads

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055370522

thread above predict government with Cowen will call election within a few weeks to get rid of the greens and get 100% FF in the Dail

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055364915

This is where after the ESB make a public announcement that nuclear inevitably will arrive in Ireland in 2030 that the Nuclear option has dangled a lot a lot of brown envelopes in front of the Hyenas
Now its ESB time to fly the kite and push the NuKE agenda to get their cut



Glad to see some have tagged along some of the threads you spoke about

Seems those threads got locked down possibiy couldn't take the heat or is that another part of the conspiracy

Really there is two islands here one which has tribunals and find the place awash in brown envelopes for everything

That's how the economy functioned the square root of the depth of the brown envelopes made Dail react in very PREDICTABLE ways

All you have to guess is the depth of the brown envelope and then you can predict the Irish future


So huge conspiracies that took often decades to construct existed then and the same structure exists today

Alley cats don't can really change stripes mid game

Some guys who can figure the next move these conspirators will try to do will try to enlighten some peoples
Sometimes the act of the projection can cause the event to be shelved as too much flack will be incurred if they try that stunt so if I succeed in that i can be happy

For example The Elction projection I cant go wrong really

If the election is called I am right
If the election doesnt happen I am right also as my projection forced them to bail out of that option
It's WIN WIN for me

Facinating watching Cowen on the Late Late Show as he does his chief of the Celtic tribe party political broadcast manoevers to lay out the road map for the snap election is a few weeks


And the other Ireland that thinks all is well in the garden of noddy land switches off from real life and closes down forward projecting threads in case they have to light up too many brain cells

Then it's shock horror when they get stiffed by some unexpected event that was predicted well in advance by some of the future projector types

The fall of the Berlin wall was predicted at least five years in advance by those who monitered those type of things......

I remember seeing those projections in ~1985 and thinking those guys have lost the plot

What do you know they were right

The introduction of the Bin taxes water rates in Ireland was predicted well in advance by those who wanted these events stopped

So what the majority of ESB is gas run in this time
The supply's of the gas from Irish gas feilds is getting low and going down

Imports of Gas or oil are projected to increase rapidly

Those imports come from politically unstable places and we are the wrong end of that pipe line

The new Shell gas project thanks to fishermen and farmers with a bit of luck will be very severely disrupted

That will ensure Ireland get saved from further gas oil exploration drilling

The result should ensure less brown envelopes will change hands

In the absence of being able to rapidly bring on stream Irish oil and gas feids and needing to find gainfull employement for the the masses who got thrown out of work
(The allley cat pretend tiger econonomy died )
The introduction of Bio fuels will ensure a more stable fuel price enviorement for which to fuel the Irish economy into the future and help protect us from oil and gas fuel spikes

But when you turn on the radio and here the chief of the ESB state that it is inevitable that 2030 Ieland will have a nuclear power station then there are several possibilties

I prefer the logical one conspiracy based on the track record of the brown envelopes brigade culture is still strong and kicking

The decision has been already made the builders want the NUKE option and the work it brings and the farmers option of bio fuels can take a hike

Now we all know the FF is the politcal wing of the builders

The Government will use whatever amount of Gaurda and navy forces to protect Shell that are necessary as they want more brown mana from heaven


As for long threads instant McDo's is not something I practice too much

As for spelling well I am rattling this out on the go and this ancient laptop take five minutes to load spell checker

Derry

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