The unions..fed up listening?

Clytus

Now..I didnt quite catch the whole story on the radio, but i heard something along the lines that a number of shop stewards within the Unions are planning on rejecting the pay agreement reached by the social partners.They want a pay rise now and higher than the rates agreed.

I employ 26 people and theres not a whiff of unions within our company so im not obliged under any pay agreements..BUT if I was Im certain that if i was forced to pay a cent more than I am now id be making redundencies.

Im in no position to look for price increases..despite increased overheads which we all know about (i.e gas, elec, commods.) We make modest profits..but are all ploughed back into the company in an effort to drive it forward and to expand. Anyone who has ever asked me for a raise, no matter how long they have been with us, always gets the same blunt answer..and thats I will pay an extra €1 p/h so long as they generate/save €2.

Did anyone notice who were the loudest during the pay talks??...the Unions within the ESB!!!...the same company that has an average salary of €90,000 per employee.
And did anyone notice that not once was there referance made to the level of the minimum wage in this country?? Nope...

Rant over...but it just gets to me how blind and ignorant the Unions are.

Maybe they should have listened to George Lee when he expressed his view that people in Ireland should be grateful they have a job in the first place.

AARRRGH

Unions want to destroy this country. It makes me sad how selfish some people are.

gandalf

Well I am of the opinion that we need a government brave enough to crush the semi-state and public sector unions. TBH it should be the Labour party because the actual workers of this state ie those PAYE workers in the private sector are subsidising an extremely inefficient and overbloated public sector. These days there should be no job for life for anyone.

CSC

While I am not a member of a Union nor do I work for the public service I really do believe they are becoming scapegoats for this economic crisis.

Tom Dunne

CSC wrote: »

While I am not a member of a Union nor do I work for the public service I really do believe they are becoming scapegoats for this economic crisis.

How are they becoming scapegoats? For supporting a bloated, inefficient Public Sector, with not a shred of accountability? Where gross incompetence seems to be the order of the day and nobody is held to responsible for it?

And I am speaking as an ex-Public Sector worker.

Clytus

Right..caught more of the story on the 3 o clock news bulletin.
The guy speaking declared that it "shouldnt be the working mans problem that there is a recession"...but it gets even better....."I dont buy into this idea that wage increases drives inflation"...obviously a man who has never heard of the term second round effect....then he went on to say that "wage inflation has an effect on the CPI is a story made up by economists and the likes!"

Now...does anyone wanna have a guess at what this man does for a living that gives himsuch profound insights into economics and industrial relations that rubbish the economists theories???.........well he is a BUS DRIVER!!!!


Shane Ross made a very good point last night...900 quangos...what the hell does this country need 900 quangos for?

As for the civil service....well the clincher for me was the story Terry Prone was telling on Radio a while back regarding the levels of sick leave in the Civil service...and the primary reason for illness...STRESS!! She went on to explain how the Dept. of Social welafre was offering counseling to people who felt they needed it in the Dept. Well over 50% headed off for the sessions.

luckyboy

Clytus wrote: »

regarding the levels of sick leave in the Civil service...

Just in the interests of balance, I personally felt the need to register here to give the other side of the story ...

I have been a civil servant since 2005 and have never once had a sick day in that time. By the same token, my wife is a civil servant almost as long and has only had one sick day (and that was whilst pregnant when she was literally puking up repeatedly and had to turn back home after starting her 60-mile commute (round trip 120 miles)

Not all civil servants are out sick a lot you know, so don't be so quick to tar us all with the same brush please ...

ixoy

I over-heard a civil servant wanting to reject the pay deal on grounds such as being forced to meet these things called "targets" for pay increaes, which he believed the private sector never had to meet... He's probably worried because it'll be impossible for him to meet a target seeing as how I've never seen him do an iota of work other than complaining about his work.

He's also one of the strongest union men in the place and it's the likes of him that makes me loathe some unions rather than all the people they represent - wanting more money for doing zilch.

tunney

luckyboy wrote: »

Just in the interests of balance, I personally felt the need to register here to give the other side of the story ...

I have been a civil servant since 2005 and have never once had a sick day in that time. By the same token, my wife is a civil servant almost as long and has only had one sick day (and that was whilst pregnant when she was literally puking up repeatedly and had to turn back home after starting her 60-mile commute (round trip 120 miles)

Not all civil servants are out sick a lot you know, so don't be so quick to tar us all with the same brush please ...

I don't think people's issues with the civil service are over sick days. More likely to be the perception of overstaffing, not being performance oriented and a suggestion that civil servants may not be the hardest workers.

pearcider

Wow there's a lot of sour grapes/right wing lunacy in this thread. Everybody knows the current economic woes are due to a lack of regulation in the international finance system as well as the collapse of the housing market and the rising cost of energy. The public sector is the usual scapegoat whereas the true blame lies with the corrupt corporate finance sector, the opportunist traders, the selfish and short sighted construction industry and the elected governments that should have been regulating all this. To suggest that the civil servants who merely administrate the state are to blame is a frankly laughable accusation. If you must blame someone blame the CEO's who are walking away from this with hundreds of millions in redundancy packages not the ESB engineer earning 80 grand nor our teachers, nurses, gardai, bus drivers and other public servants who do excellent work for relatively low pay and are fully entitled to be unionized.

damnyanks

Anyone who screwed up got fired. I've never heard of anyone **** in the civil service being fired. I've heard of them being asked to retire early (which the tax payers pay for)

pearcider

Anyone who screwed up got fired. I've never heard of anyone **** in the civil service being fired. I've heard of them being asked to retire early (which the tax payers pay for)

You're going to have to present more than anecdotal evidence my friend. Chances are you've heard practically nothing. And lets see what happen to the CEO's who've got fired recently.

In 2007, Alan Schwartz, the last CEO of Bear Stearns earned cash compensation of $35,734,422, which included a $16,237,150 bonus.

Robert B. Willumstad is the outgoing CEO of AIG and will receive c 7 million for his 3 month tenure - during which the stock price fell 97%.

Richard Severin Fuld, Jr. is the final CEO of Lehman Bros...he received a $22 million bonus for 2007.

Granted these are American examples but it's a similar model operating in Ireland with even more excessive levels of corporate greed on display.

Clytus

pearcider wrote: »

Wow there's a lot of sour grapes/right wing lunacy in this thread. Everybody knows the current economic woes are due to a lack of regulation in the international finance system as well as the collapse of the housing market and the rising cost of energy. The public sector is the usual scapegoat whereas the true blame lies with the corrupt corporate finance sector, the opportunist traders, the selfish and short sighted construction industry and the elected governments that should have been regulating all this. To suggest that the civil servants who merely administrate the state are to blame is a frankly laughable accusation. If you must blame someone blame the CEO's who are walking away from this with hundreds of millions in redundancy packages not the ESB engineer earning 80 grand nor our teachers, nurses, gardai, bus drivers and other public servants who do excellent work for relatively low pay and are fully entitled to be unionized.

Sour grapes?????...NO!!!...its plain frustration. The average salary within the Civil service is €49,000 in March of this year...so its quids in compared to the average industrial wage of €38,000. Now...this is difficult, but a % value of a Civil servants salary has to be added to value the security of tenure they have...and given the current economic climate..id probably say it should be in or around 10-20%.
Now given all that...to then have to listen to the likes of our friend the bus driver declare that the recession has nothing to do with them and that should get an immediate pay rise greater than 6% is just serves to irate the likes of me.

From January to July, the Exchequer deficit rose to €6.7 billion,...Goverment spending rose by 11%.
The State is screwed for cash....yet the Unions were demanding higher pay!?!
Ill refer you back to my OP where I described the conditions required before I give a pay rise...

One good thing that will come of the recession, I hope, is that the People of this country will wake up to the incredible malaise within the administration.

Clytus

pearcider wrote: »

You're going to have to present more than anecdotal evidence my friend. Chances are you've heard practically nothing. And lets see what happen to the CEO's who've got fired recently.

In 2007, Alan Schwartz, the last CEO of Bear Stearns earned cash compensation of $35,734,422, which included a $16,237,150 bonus.

Robert B. Willumstad is the outgoing CEO of AIG and will receive c 7 million for his 3 month tenure - during which the stock price fell 97%.

Richard Severin Fuld, Jr. is the final CEO of Lehman Bros...he received a $22 million bonus for 2007.

Granted these are American examples but it's a similar model operating in Ireland with even more excessive levels of corporate greed on display.

jeeze...you wouldnt happen to be a member of that lunatic fringe union amicus would ya??

AARRRGH

pearcider wrote: »

If you must blame someone blame the CEO's who are walking away from this with hundreds of millions in redundancy packages not the ESB engineer earning 80 grand nor our teachers, nurses, gardai, bus drivers and other public servants who do excellent work for relatively low pay and are fully entitled to be unionized.

You're completely missing the point.

1. Our tax money does not pay a CEO's wage so I couldn't give a fiddle what a private company wants to pay its CEO. Also, you cannot compare a CEO to a civil servant worker - apples and oranges.
2. Civil service workers earn a lot more than a non-civil service worker. Look up the average industrial wage in Ireland and you will see this.
3. Our issue is that our economy is screwed yet the civil service are being their usual greedy selves. They don't give a damn about anyone or anything but themselves.

Note I worked as an outside contractor in the civil service. Biggest bunch of wasters I've ever met.

pearcider

You're completely missing the point.

1. Our tax money does not pay a CEO's wage so I couldn't give a fiddle what a private company wants to pay its CEO. Also, you cannot compare a CEO to a civil servant worker - apples and oranges.
2. Civil service workers earn a lot more than a non-civil service worker. Look up the average industrial wage in Ireland and you will see this.
3. Our issue is that our economy is screwed yet the civil service are being their usual greedy selves. They don't give a damn about anyone or anything but themselves.

Note I worked as an outside contractor in the civil service. Biggest bunch of wasters I've ever met.

1. Our tax money pays for everything that enables a company to conduct business in the first place and recent events have shown our tax money will bail out the big companies if they require it. Lets not forget other debacles where the taxpayer inevitably foots the bill eg Eircom privitisation, railway privitisation in the UK, Esat Digifone scandal where Mr Denis O'Brien was able to make off with 300 million of money (the ISDN infratructure without which the GSM license is worthless was built by the state), etc. We have very generous tax rates in this country in the first place and the basic reason for the deficit is that we're not paying enough tax to fund our essential National Development Plan. It only take a weekend in Frankfurt or Madrid to see we're light years behind the europeans in terms of infrastructure. Who's gonna fund it? Mr MacNamara, Mr O'Reilly and co? Don't be a muppet. Open your eyes. The people screwing this country are the rich business men and their political backers.

2. I would contend that the average is more because the civil service wage structure is more equitable than in the private sector where the top managers are paid extortionate wages and the lower workers are left to get by on minimum wage. This is partly because of the anti union policies of most corporations leaving very little bargaining power in the hands of workers.

3. It's quite evident that our economy is not being screwed up by the civil service but rather by the vested interests I mentioned earlier. For example a large portion of the pressure placed on the world economy is being driven by high and unstable energy prices. Who do we blame about that? The Civil Service? Or what about companies like Shell (Profits 2007: 33 billion) and ExxonMobil (Profits 2007: 40 Billion) and wealthy speculators in the commodity markets? Why should the CS not pursue a very reasonable salary increase in line with inflation? It's their right. If anyone is being screwed here, it's the average joe on the average industrial wage being screwed by his greedy company headed by a greedy board of directors/CEO's and shareholders.

Your last point is a total generalization.

Tom Dunne

pearcider wrote: »

You're going to have to present more than anecdotal evidence my friend. Chances are you've heard practically nothing. And lets see what happen to the CEO's who've got fired recently.

In 2007, Alan Schwartz, the last CEO of Bear Stearns earned cash compensation of $35,734,422, which included a $16,237,150 bonus.

Robert B. Willumstad is the outgoing CEO of AIG and will receive c 7 million for his 3 month tenure - during which the stock price fell 97%.

Richard Severin Fuld, Jr. is the final CEO of Lehman Bros...he received a $22 million bonus for 2007.

Granted these are American examples but it's a similar model operating in Ireland with even more excessive levels of corporate greed on display.

Seriously, what in God's name have massive American corporations got to do with Ireland? There is no comparison. Though when you are on the defensive, big numbers help.

Nobody is blaming the Public Sector, personally, I am finding it hard to accept Public Sector pay demands when the rest of the economy is grinding to a halt. I expect to be told there is no payrise in my next review. Am I going to go on strike and hold the country to ransom? No, I am going to suck it up and get on with it, lest I get fired. No chance of that happening in the Civil Service/Public Sector.

I accept tarring all Public Sector workers with the one brush is unfair, but having both worked there and having clients currently in the Public Sector, I have first hand experience of the gross incompetence, waste and general laid-back attitude that would get people fired in the Real World.

A dose of realism is what is needed, not a pay rise.

pearcider

Seriously, what in God's name have massive American corporations got to do with Ireland? There is no comparison. Though when you are on the defensive, big numbers help.

US subsidiaries operating in Ireland employ in excess of 100,000 people and generate 30 billion odd in exports and our economic policy is closely modeled on the US. Boston not Berlin my friend.

Nobody is blaming the Public Sector, personally, I am finding it hard to accept Public Sector pay demands when the rest of the economy is grinding to a halt. I expect to be told there is no payrise in my next review. Am I going to go on strike and hold the country to ransom? No, I am going to suck it up and get on with it, lest I get fired. No chance of that happening in the Civil Service/Public Sector.

Well, I came here to defend the CS from accusations that it's perceived inefficiency was the reason for the economic downturn. Which is total nonsense. The rest of your point just confirms it's sour grapes.

I accept tarring all Public Sector workers with the one brush is unfair, but having both worked there and having clients currently in the Public Sector, I have first hand experience of the gross incompetence, waste and general laid-back attitude that would get people fired in the Real World.

You can't compare the CS and the so called (I assume you mean corporate world) "Real World". They operate on different principles. One serves the people, the other serves the shareholders.

Clytus

pearcider wrote: »

1. Our tax money pays for everything that enables a company to conduct business in the first place and recent events have shown our tax money will bail out the big companies if they require it. Lets not forget other debacles where the taxpayer inevitably foots the bill eg Eircom privitisation, railway privitisation in the UK, Esat Digifone scandal where Mr Denis O'Brien was able to make off with 300 million of money (the ISDN infratructure without which the GSM license is worthless was built by the state), etc. We have very generous tax rates in this country in the first place and the basic reason for the deficit is that we're not paying enough tax to fund our essential National Development Plan. It only take a weekend in Frankfurt or Madrid to see we're light years behind the europeans in terms of infrastructure. Who's gonna fund it? Mr MacNamara, Mr O'Reilly and co? Don't be a muppet. Open your eyes. The people screwing this country are the rich business men and their political backers.

2. I would contend that the average is more because the civil service wage structure is more equitable than in the private sector where the top managers are paid extortionate wages and the lower workers are left to get by on minimum wage. This is partly because of the anti union policies of most corporations leaving very little bargaining power in the hands of workers.

3. It's quite evident that our economy is not being screwed up by the civil service but rather by the vested interests I mentioned earlier. For example a large portion of the pressure placed on the world economy is being driven by high and unstable energy prices. Who do we blame about that? The Civil Service? Or what about companies like Shell (Profits 2007: 33 billion) and ExxonMobil (Profits 2007: 40 Billion) and wealthy speculators in the commodity markets? Why should the CS not pursue a very reasonable salary increase in line with inflation? It's their right. If anyone is being screwed here, it's the average joe on the average industrial wage being screwed by his greedy company headed by a greedy board of directors/CEO's and shareholders.

Your last point is a total generalization.

Right... Im flabergasted. Pear...you seem like an intelligent chap, but your posts amaze me by their Trotskyite tones.
one of the main driving forces behind this countrys economic succes has been the FDI..with the likes of Intel, Hewlett Packard, Microsoft, Wyeth....all attracted and retained by the generous tax breaks afforeded them..in return they have created jobs..thousands and thousands of them...and all going towards paying in some part your salary.Increasing Corparation tax will drive away FDI given the huge costs in Human Capital in this country.
The countrys budget deficit has nothing to do with us not paying enough Tax..although direct taxation is relativly low, indirect taxation if included is actually quite high (example VRT, Excise Duty)...its to do with the runaway increases in Public spending...and the sooner the C.S wakes up to that the better.

I would contend that the average is more because the civil service wage structure is more equitable than in the private sector where the top managers are paid extortionate wages and the lower workers are left to get by on minimum wage. This is partly because of the anti union policies of most corporations leaving very little bargaining power in the hands of workers.

Right lets take examples of the countries top CEOs. Their renumeration is in direct relation to PREFORMANCE. These guys are paid to hit targets, they are responsible for turnovers and profits in the billions...they are answerable to the shareholders and could get the bullet in a moments notice.
First example Brian Goggin of BOI in 2007 earned €3.998 million but in 2008 earned €2.97 million.

Eugene Sheehy in 2006 earned €2.436 million and in 2007 earned €2.105 million.

As regard anti union policies...please show us examples...

Right i think Im gonna stop here after re-reading the end of your last post. Its total crap....you live in some sort of CS fairytale bubble.

Your posting just go to prove how out of touch with reality the CS actually is.

can I ask you one thing...if you worked in the private sector and the company you worked for was sverly in the red...would you you push for a pay raise??

Tom Dunne

pearcider wrote: »

You can't compare the CS and the so called (I assume you mean corporate world) "Real World". They operate on different principles. One serves the people, the other serves the shareholders.

Correction - one is supposed to serve the people. In reality they serve nobody but themselves.

ixoy

I would contend that the average is more because the civil service wage structure is more equitable than in the private sector where the top managers are paid extortionate wages and the lower workers are left to get by on minimum wage.

So you're admitting that the mean salary of a public sector worker is better than a private sector? Grand, no need for a pay rise then.

AARRRGH

pearcider wrote: »

1. Our tax money pays for everything that enables a company to conduct business in the first place and recent events have shown our tax money will bail out the big companies if they require it.

Could you give me an example of this?

Or are you talking about the US government?

I do not see how your point has anything to do with a private company paying a CEO a fortune and our tax money paying (let's be honest) a number of uneducated, lazy public service workers an above average wage.

If you don't believe me many public service workers are uneducated, do a search on this forum. Some of them only have their Junior Cert yet expect big money. How deluded.

pearcider wrote: »

2. I would contend that the average is more because the civil service wage structure is more equitable than in the private sector where the top managers are paid extortionate wages and the lower workers are left to get by on minimum wage.

The top guys in the public service don't earn big money? Give me a break...

pearcider wrote: »

3. It's quite evident that our economy is not being screwed up by the civil service but rather by the vested interests I mentioned earlier. Etc.

You're still missing the point.

The Government is broke yet you are demanding large wage increases. If you cannot see how this is wrong, you are utterly selfish.

EDIT: If you worked for a private company and they had no money, would you still be demanding a raise? Of course not, you'd go get a job somewhere else.

CSC

The Government is broke yet you are demanding large wage increases. If you cannot see how this is wrong, you are utterly selfish.

EDIT: If you worked for a private company and they had no money, would you still be demanding a raise? Of course not, you'd go get a job somewhere else.[/quote]

It has to be remembered that the government gave themselves a pay raise recently also. Hardly leading by example.

AARRRGH

CSC wrote: »

It has to be remembered that the government gave themselves a pay raise recently also. Hardly leading by example.

There are lots of ****ed people who take and take in this world, but I choose not to be like them. That's how a civilised person should think.

CSC

I agree, but I do find it hard to listen to government TDs (like McGuinness) slating the Civil Service when I know how much they are creaming off the state.

Cork

Mr. McGuinness is 100% correct. It is a pity that he did not get more support for his comments from fellow TDs and the taxpayer.


I have worked in both the private sector and public sector. The public sector is inefficent. This inefficency has been there for years. Workers in that office knew no better. Apart from some IPA courses - no-one in the office was qualified for any task. Reading magazines, newspapers, texting, phonecalls, texting, massive tea and lunch breaks etc was common.

We had a situation recently - where private sector bus companies were forced out of business because of poor state regulation.

It will not surprise me - if public sector unions vote this agreement down.

Many don't gives 2 wits about the economy or taxpayer.

Tom Dunne

CSC wrote: »

It has to be remembered that the government gave themselves a pay raise recently also. Hardly leading by example.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

CSC wrote: »

I agree, but I do find it hard to listen to government TDs (like McGuinness) slating the Civil Service when I know how much they are creaming off the state.

They are hardly "creaming". They are elected representatives, blame the fools who put them into government.

I am still failing to hear of anyone from the CS/PS justifying why they should get pay rises in the current economic climate. All I am hearing is finger pointing and delusional comparisons with mega-corporations in the US.

Darragh29

Clytus wrote: »

Now..I didnt quite catch the whole story on the radio, but i heard something along the lines that a number of shop stewards within the Unions are planning on rejecting the pay agreement reached by the social partners.They want a pay rise now and higher than the rates agreed.

I employ 26 people and theres not a whiff of unions within our company so im not obliged under any pay agreements..BUT if I was Im certain that if i was forced to pay a cent more than I am now id be making redundencies.

Im in no position to look for price increases..despite increased overheads which we all know about (i.e gas, elec, commods.) We make modest profits..but are all ploughed back into the company in an effort to drive it forward and to expand. Anyone who has ever asked me for a raise, no matter how long they have been with us, always gets the same blunt answer..and thats I will pay an extra €1 p/h so long as they generate/save €2.

Did anyone notice who were the loudest during the pay talks??...the Unions within the ESB!!!...the same company that has an average salary of €90,000 per employee.
And did anyone notice that not once was there referance made to the level of the minimum wage in this country?? Nope...

Rant over...but it just gets to me how blind and ignorant the Unions are.

Maybe they should have listened to George Lee when he expressed his view that people in Ireland should be grateful they have a job in the first place.

I couldn't agree more with you OP. I've had a mixed experience of unions over the last 10 years. In my last PAYE job, that place could have done with a union, it was a very large US multinational and there was a complete absence of fair play at work, especially in relation to promotions (jobs for the boys mentality), but the problems there didn't require a union to resolve them, just some decent legislation.

There is something seriously wrong with a government that even entertains a discussion about a pay increase with a union that represents people who are earning an average of 90,000 Euro PA. It is interesting to note that the people who have the last of the handy numbers, for example ESB workers, Irish Rail train drivers, etc, the people who are working in protected industries, are the highest paid folks out there in terms of industrial employment positions and are the same people shouting loudest at the pay talks...

If we had better employment legislation that was enforcable, as distinct from voluntary, as the current set up is, we would have no need for unions. Unions have this country ruined. I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about: I was in Superquinn in Knocklyon a few months ago on Sunday and was at the meat counter looking for a decent chunk of fillet steak. There were some pre-packed fillets that were a bit smaller than what I was looking for, so I asked a woman behind the counter could she cut me a bigger slice off a big joint of fillet steak on display at the counter.

The reply I got was, "I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to cut meat, that is the butchers job and he's on a break, the union won't let me use a knife..."!!!

This was a woman behind a butchers counter in Superquinn!!!

I asked her did she have any problem using a knife, for example if she was at home and had to cut up a Sunday roast for the family, would it be a problem for her, her answer was that she was well able to cut meat but she simply wasn't allowed to use a knife in her job because of union rules that stipulated that she could only serve meat that had already been cut by a butcher.

She apologised profusely and said she just didn't want to be the cause of industrial relations problems where she worked as "the butchers take their job very seriously". In the end I went to Tesco and got my 8 Euro slice of fillet steak no problem and haven't shopped in Superquinn Knocklyon since then. There is no way a union is deciding what size my Sunday fillet steak will be!!!

Darragh29

pearcider wrote: »

It's their right. If anyone is being screwed here, it's the average joe on the average industrial wage being screwed by his greedy company headed by a greedy board of directors/CEO's and shareholders.

Your last point is a total generalization.

I've had enough of unions playing the poorman these days. How many employees of the ESB, Irish Rail, are earning the average industrial wage???

What was required at these pay talks was a fu*king pay cut, nothing more, nothing less, by everyone. The government should have been in a position to lead by having cut their pay by 10% around 3 months ago, if they had have shown some effective leadership, people would have been happy to follow good sound leadership, but you won't see this type of selfless brave leadership from a government of fu*king overweight wasters who have demonstrated that they have absoltely NOTHING to offer this country apart from a 3 day think in.

damnyanks

So one must wonder what will happen if tax's go up while the economy begins to slump. Will there be a knock on of unemployment?

Lets face it the unions always get what they want because Ireland at the end of the day no politician in Ireland ever makes a tough decision.

BostonB

Darragh29 wrote: »

....In the end I went to Tesco and got my 8 Euro slice of fillet steak no problem and haven't shopped in Superquinn Knocklyon since then. There is no way a union is deciding what size my Sunday fillet steak will be!!!

Just curious are the butchers in Tesco not allowed to be in a union or something?

pearcider

one of the main driving forces behind this countrys economic succes has been the FDI..with the likes of Intel, Hewlett Packard, Microsoft, Wyeth....all attracted and retained by the generous tax breaks afforeded them..in return they have created jobs..thousands and thousands of them...and all going towards paying in some part your salary.Increasing Corparation tax will drive away FDI given the huge costs in Human Capital in this country.

I never suggested increasing corporation tax. We're uncompetitive enough.

The countrys budget deficit has nothing to do with us not paying enough Tax..although direct taxation is relativly low, indirect taxation if included is actually quite high (example VRT, Excise Duty)...its to do with the runaway increases in Public spending...and the sooner the C.S wakes up to that the better.

Direct taxation is ridiculously low compared with the typical EU country. And yet if we expect an infrastructure and public service on a standard with the EU, we're going to have to fund it with tax. Now it's a matter of opinion what model one wants to pursue. And one should elect a government based on such economic policies. Personally I'm in favour of low tax/poor public service but that's only because I'm earning a nice salary and have private health insurance/my own car etc. I do realise that's it not the way a small island nation such as ours should choose to develop. We should have heavy investment in our transport, education and energy infrastructure. Unfortunately, history has shown us that market capitalism simply cannot provide this strategic type of planning and development. If you want a developed society, this high level of capital expenditure (and the corresponding high taxation levels) are necessary! To blame the civil service for the reality of fundamentals is ludicrous.

Right lets take examples of the countries top CEOs. Their renumeration is in direct relation to PREFORMANCE. These guys are paid to hit targets, they are responsible for turnovers and profits in the billions...they are answerable to the shareholders and could get the bullet in a moments notice.
First example Brian Goggin of BOI in 2007 earned €3.998 million but in 2008 earned €2.97 million.

Eugene Sheehy in 2006 earned €2.436 million and in 2007 earned €2.105 million.

Exactly those wages are 10 times higher compared with the 250k typical of a minister in government or a Secretary General in the CS - who have greater responsibility and preside over larger budgets and administrations. A bank clerk is paid typically 25k which is somewhat higher than a typical clerk in the civil service. And don't pretend that middle management in banks earn more than their counterparts in the service. CS salaries are practically a joke compared to what most middle managers earn in Ireland. For example if you peruse the C.S.O website (another bloated civil service no doubt) they pointed out that the 2005 to 2007 period showed a widening earnings gap between high-skilled and lower skilled workers in the financial sector, with average hourly earnings rising by 17% for managers and professionals but remaining unchanged for clerical, sales and service staff. This is because the lower staff are not unionized and being screwed by their management. A 17% pay rise??! Don't tell me the civil servants are demanding that! And give up your sour grapes please. It's not the civil servants fault that they have a fairer wage structure than the private sector.

can I ask you one thing...if you worked in the private sector and the company you worked for was sverly in the red...would you you push for a pay raise??

While the analogy is highly flawed I will for the record state that I do work in the private sector (for a major financial services company) and was recently given a promotion and a fat bonus (try getting that in the civil service!). I had the opportunity to join the service recently but turned it down precisely because of the poor salary. I take issue with the opinions being spouted in here about typical public workers being lazy, uneducated etc. Both my parents worked their entire lives in the CS and I find the suggestion offensive. You couldn't find a sounder work ethic and I know they did a brilliant job (just like the vast majority of the public service). Most of these CS jobs are ones people don't want to do - looking after the dregs of societies, criminals, the uneducated, the insane, the sick and the elderly. To suggest that they're all lazy so and sos when they essentially keep this country together is hard to stomach. It's quite clear that it's sour grapes from everybody in here ****ting themselves that their merciless company could fire them at a moments notice - well thats your fault, not the civil servants. You're free to work wherever you want and it's quite easy to join the CS if you want. You'd also have the added satisfaction that you're serving your nation and not some monstrous corporation whose entire code of ethics plays second fiddle to the bottom line.

Cork

To suggest that they're all lazy so and sos when they essentially keep this country together is hard to stomach

It was only my experience of working in one organisation. These offices were made up with the laziest of the lazy.

Any course after work hours - zero interest.

Courses during work including free lunch - no problem with demand.

There is good reason teachers oppose league tables and why do don't find cost per transaction information on these organisations.

BostonB

Tom Dunne wrote: »

...I accept tarring all Public Sector workers with the one brush is unfair, but having both worked there and having clients currently in the Public Sector, I have first hand experience of the gross incompetence, waste and general laid-back attitude that would get people fired in the Real World.

A dose of realism is what is needed, not a pay rise.

So you've never experienced any of that in Private sector. From builders, taxi's, Mobile phone companies, Broadband providers, PC World, NTL, Main dealers, Mechanics, etc. Because I see that all the time in the private sector. From working on both the public but mostly private sector. I wouldn't make the generalization's you make.You also get good and bad managers/sections. Just like you would in large private sector corporations, where you get good team, bad teams.

IMO the scope of the unions is far too intrusive. Like that example in Superquinn, thats the same thing that goes on in the public sector. I've seen IT projects tied in knots because of constant union interference. Often from union people unqualified to be involved in the project. The Govt is gutless, like they've shown with the HSE. Until someone with a pair can stand up to the unions, we'll get no where. I'm sceptical of those average wage figures. You going to get a lot of white collar workers in the public sector, and a lot of professionals. Whereas in the private sector you are going to have more unskilled and lower paid shop and industrial workers.

There should be cuts in a sliding scale from the best paid to the least paid. The least well paid are probably due increases. Not blind blanket cuts for all workers.

pearcider

Could you give me an example of this?

They're ennumerable but I'll give you a current one. How about the government recently announcing a raising of the ceiling to 100,000 for deposits in our private banks?

Or are you talking about the US government?

I'm talking about every governemnt! Didn't the UK recently nationalize Northern Rock? They're still picking up the tab for the disastrous privatization of British Rail...and you can bet your ass our kids will be picking up the tab for the Eircom fiasco when we start paying the social and economic price for having the worst internet access infrastructure in the developed world.

I do not see how your point has anything to do with a private company paying a CEO a fortune and our tax money paying (let's be honest) a number of uneducated, lazy public service workers an above average wage.

Showing your true colours here...you're just jealous of the fairer wage structure in the civil service.

If you don't believe me many public service workers are uneducated, do a search on this forum. Some of them only have their Junior Cert yet expect big money. How deluded.

Nonsense. You need at least a Leaving Cert to apply for the bottom rung on the civil service ladder - and you're paid little above minimum wage. Civil servants that earn decent money in the health servcie, the prison service, Irish Rail and the ESB are all highly qualified and trained.

The top guys in the public service don't earn big money? Give me a break...

Compared to the CEO's they earn at least ten times less.

The Government is broke yet you are demanding large wage increases. If you cannot see how this is wrong, you are utterly selfish.

It's not the civil servants fault the government is broke. Blame the government (for having too low a tax rate and inadequate legislation) and the vested interests in the financial and construction sector - who've made billions from this country and who live as tax exiles because they're too tight to give a little back to the nation, the people and the government that allowed them to make their fortunes in the first place. How people can ignore the shocking greed on display by the professional and business classes in this country this past decade and make the civil service the scapegoats beggars belief.The unions are still entitled to demand a wage increase and this is wholly necessary if we're going to attract decent people to work for the country.

BostonB

Cork wrote: »

It was only my experience of working in one organisation. These offices were made up with the laziest of the lazy.

Any course after work hours - zero interest.

Courses during work including free lunch - no problem with demand.

There is good reason teachers oppose league tables and why do don't find cost per transaction information on these organisations.

I guess it depends where you work. A lot of the PS people I know have 2 degrees and rack of other qualifications. It goes towards promotion, so theres pressure to keep learning, and doing courses. I've never seen that in the private sector. No paid lunches on course either. Maybe different in other areas.

Tom Dunne

BostonB wrote: »

So you've never experienced any of that in Private sector. From builders, taxi's, Mobile phone companies, Broadband providers, PC World, NTL, Main dealers, Mechanics, etc. Because I see that all the time in the private sector. From working on both the public but mostly private sector. I wouldn't make the generalization's you make.You also get good and bad managers/sections. Just like you would in large private sector corporations, where you get good team, bad teams.

Did you actually read what I said? I didn't say what some people are saying, i.e. all Public Sector/Civil Service workers are lazy-good-for-nothings. I said that I had first hand experience of such people and that sweeping generalisations are unfair. I know there are good people in those organisations, I have worked with some of them.

And of course I have experienced it in the private sector. My point is that those that are actually the lazy, incompetent so-and-so's in the CS/PS could do with a dose of reality working in the private sector - they wouldn't last a month. They would learn that in the Real World, if things are going bad, you don't get a pay rise. A concept that seems to be lost on both them and the unions.

BostonB wrote: »

Until someone with a pair can stand up to the unions, we'll get no where

And there is the crux of the matter. Until somebody stands up and is willing to put their job on the line, nothing will be done. At the highest level of government there is neither the incentive, nor the balls to take on the unions.

BostonB

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Did you actually read what I said? ...

Still comes across as a generalisation tbh, apologies if that wasn't intended. My point is it often doesn't get you fired, but often promoted in the private sector. Nepotism etc.

AARRRGH

pearcider wrote: »

Showing your true colours here...you're just jealous of the fairer wage structure in the civil service.

God. Why is this always the retarded come back from civil servants.

I would HATE to work in an office of unmotivated, lazy, greedy fools. What a ****ty life that must be. I will NEVER apply for a civil service job.

My problem is you and your like are exceptionally greedy. You will use any excuse to get more money and do less work. You're like something from a Dickens novel.

pearcider wrote: »

Nonsense. You need at least a Leaving Cert to apply for the bottom rung on the civil service ladder

No you don't. Do a search on this forum - plenty of people working in the civil service with only their junior certificate.

damnyanks

pearcider wrote: »

I'm talking about every governemnt! Didn't the UK recently nationalize Northern Rock? They're still picking up the tab for the disastrous privatization of British Rail...and you can bet your ass our kids will be picking up the tab for the Eircom fiasco when we start paying the social and economic price for having the worst internet access infrastructure in the developed world.

Northern Rock was going to go bust because they were exposed to a drastic turn in short term debt markets not because they were greedy.

What about British Rail ? Last I saw the government picked up a lot of money from private providers.

Eircom was never forced to upgrade their infrastructure back when it was Telecom Eirann. Maybe when they were pulling hand over fist in cash they should have upgraded instead of waiting for private providors like NTL to upgrad the infrastructure.

Clytus

This thread has kinda veered off on a CS bashing tangent...which wasnt the point.
But to tackle some of the views expressed by Pear...
first of all your example of the Minister guaranteeing savers funds to €100K...that was a tactile move to reassure the public of the States confidence in the Irish banking sector. Liveline has alot to answer for in that respect...by allowing thicks and gob****es air time to suggest they grab their cash and hide it under their matresses. Mind you I shouldnt have expected anything else of that goon Duffy!!! Banking is a mechanism by which the Irish economy exists....so to allow media hype and misinformed individuals air time to stir mass hysteria and damage the banking system was an issue the Minister HAD to tackle ...and he did so very well indeed...I applaud his actions there.

Compared to the CEO's they earn at least ten times less.

CEOs of Multinational companies...who have turnovers in the Billions...whith thousands of employees...providing thousands of jobs..generating the Billions of euro in PAYE, VRT, PRSI, VAT, Stamp Duty that all add up to pay for a CSs average salary of €49,000 + 32%.

I'm talking about every governemnt! Didn't the UK recently nationalize Northern Rock? They're still picking up the tab for the disastrous privatization of British Rail...and you can bet your ass our kids will be picking up the tab for the Eircom fiasco when we start paying the social and economic price for having the worst internet access infrastructure in the developed world.

The one thing Id like to point out here is that you seem to be forgetting that even back in 1987 this country was an economic basketcase. in fact Alan Dukes recalled there how he was told by a local councillor back then that they were having to consider switching off the traffic lights in his area because they couldnt pay the electricty bill....so you have to consider the point from where we came when you list the lack of major capital projects.

Exactly those wages are 10 times higher compared with the 250k typical of a minister in government or a Secretary General in the CS - who have greater responsibility and preside over larger budgets and administrations.

Have you ever looked to see how their incomes are broken down?
I think you will find that the bulk ( in some cases are in excess of 50%) is amde up of pension contribtuions, preformance bonuses and share opitions. Now...the other thing you have left out is the value to be added to the security of tenure those within the CS have....there are probably private sector workers reading this thread who are worried about how much longer their jobs are gonna be around....something the CS tries to skirt round everytime. In these times...Id suggest it should be worth 20% of their salary....and pensions...what about those...Iv heard that the Civil service pension is worth in EXCESS of 12.5% of salary...so we have roughly a value of 32% over the average €49,000 SC salary.

While the analogy is highly flawed I will for the record state that I do work in the private sector (for a major financial services company) and was recently given a promotion and a fat bonus (try getting that in the civil service!). I had the opportunity to join the service recently but turned it down precisely because of the poor salary.

Please explain how the anaolgy is flawed? To me its basic business...run out of cash..i.e become insolvent ( as oppossed to having a liquidty problem)...and you go bust...so when the needle is in the red and the bank is ringing you everyday to see what invoices are due to be paid in you dont hand out pay rises...you do the opposit...you look for savings...you cut away the dead wood....and anyone who demands wage increases suddenly find themselves nursing an arse that got a size 12 planted on it.
Now...you say you earned a nice bonus this year...for what exactly?/...for turning up every day?...for having the prettiest hand writing??...for highest hit number on your beebo page??....I doubt it...Id guess for achieving or exceeding targets.
Now...and as I keep refering to my own example...why shouldnt the CS be any different when it comes to wage demands? Hit set targets...earn a nice healthy bonus....bum around all day and get fiddley feck all.

who've made billions from this country and who live as tax exiles because they're too tight to give a little back to the nation,

With the exception of Mr D O Brien who else exactly?

BostonB

AARRRGH wrote: »

...You will use any excuse to get more money and do less work. You're like something from a Dickens novel.
....

Unless it is a charity, or loss leading, why would anyone (Private or Public Sector) want to get less money and do more work?

damnyanks

BostonB wrote: »

Unless it is a charity, or loss leading, why would anyone (Private or Public Sector) want to get less money and do more work?

But in the case of CS we're talking about them doing the same work and wanting more pay.

BostonB

damnyanks wrote: »

But in the case of CS we're talking about them doing the same work and wanting more pay.

So the services haven't improved? What about all the websites you have now for services. Theres new services all over the place. The population has increased, and theres more grants, etc. Are you saying that things haven't haven't changed since the pre boom? or that people should still be paid 1980's wages?

ixoy

BostonB wrote: »

Are you saying that things haven't haven't changed since the pre boom? or that people should still be paid 1980's wages?

Yes but they're not being paid 1980s wages anymore are they? All reports say they're being paid very well relative to the private industry, and that's not factoring in perks like job security, flexi-time, pensions, etc. So we need to look at what they have now - quite a bit - and use that to factor against pay rises that can't be afforded.

zoemax

I work in the public sector and prior to that I worked in the private sector and I have had my own business. In fairness I get well paid for a relatrvely short contracted working week (>€100k for a 32hr week). I always work longer than my contracted hours but probably still less than in my last similar job in the private sector.

IME at a senior level public sector workers do work as hard as their private sector counterparts and get well paid for it. However as you come down the foodchain things begin to change. I have numerous colleagues who are hard working, work more than their contracted hours and have a devotion to their work. I also have as many colleagues who take the line that the have no need to work hard as they will get paid anyway and they can't be sacked, these tend to be the active union members. Any attempt to introduce performance management to try and deal with the slackers is met with a violent response from the unions. In fact event trying to discipline a staff member for gross misconduct is pretty much impossible as they will get the union to row in gehind them and management will just back down (I have first hand experience of this).

If you want to see the effect unions have on the public sector just look at the health service. There were pretty much no redundancies when all the health boards merged, why? Unions. The health service needs to be streamlined and excess staff need to be lost. Will this happen? No, again because of unions. It is much easier to concentrate on the consultants who earn big money and are an easy target. Look at the nurses and their constant bleating about being overworked, yet they maintain that they can have their working week reduced without having any effect on patient care if new efficiences are introduced. Here's an idea, start working more efficiently but stay on 39hrs and see how that helps patients.

BostonB

ixoy wrote: »

Yes but they're not being paid 1980s wages anymore are they? All reports say they're being paid very well relative to the private industry, and that's not factoring in perks like job security, flexi-time, pensions, etc. So we need to look at what they have now - quite a bit - and use that to factor against pay rises that can't be afforded.

Are they ALL over paid. Or is it just some of them. Benchmarking in theory should be able to reduce wages to match the private sector. Which seems fair enough, as long as it doesn't take many years to get increases and decreases. In the private sector you have things like share options, bonuses, raises, you can move around jobs far more quickly to get more money. Its a bit of a hare and tortoise situation. You get flexi-time and pensions in the private sector, and the pension isn't worth that much if you don't have full service, or if you have a low salary to start with, lower grades and all that. They way people talk you'd swear even clerical staff are on film star wages, and are set up for life!

I'm with zoemax on this though. After many years in the private sector, I'm only a few years in the public sector. I would say theres a few bad eggs but the vast majority work hard, and are under resourced in many areas, creating huge back logs and time delays, most people would work beyond their hours often unpaid like in the private sector. At least where I am. The biggest difference I notice as well is the unions. They have veto on far too much and are far too influential even on very low level stuff. You are constantly running into problems because of union input.

ixoy

BostonB wrote: »

In the private sector you have things like share options, bonuses, raises, you can move around jobs far more quickly to get more money.

You have raises in the public sector too as your years go on, outside of inflationary increases (or at least they do where I am). Share options are a dubious investment, particularly in current conditions, and bonuses are certainly not guaranteed and often absent in companies.
As to moving around in jobs, I'd agree there's probably more flexibility to move into a position within the company in the private sector - the public sector isn't renowned for being dynamic!

They way people talk you'd swear even clerical staff are on film star wages, and are set up for life!

CO wages are pretty poor alright, but if you manage to get in at say AO level, your wages can go up pretty quickly to nice figures (certainly once you get to AP level).

I'm with zoemax on this though. After many years in the private sector, I'm only a few years in the public sector. I would say theres a few bad eggs but the vast majority work hard, and are under resourced in many areas, creating huge back logs and time delays, most people would work beyond their hours often unpaid like in the private sector.

Don't you get flexi-time for overtime? Isn't that a form of pay? Certainly they do where I'm based.
I'll agree that most are decent workers and quite competent and generally pleasant to deal with. I don't believe many are over-worked given the amount of empty desks I see on the public service said after 5 (or between 11 and 11:30...) but then I'm just in one area in a broader thing.

I think the problem at the moment is I'm over-hearing a lot from one those union heads that you yourself recognise as an issue and it can be very aggravating listening to him and his "grievances". He, and his ilk, are the sort who will only help antagonise the pay deals on grounds that I believe are pretty baseless.

BostonB

ixoy wrote: »

You have raises in the public sector too as your years go on, outside of inflationary increases (or at least they do where I am). Share options are a dubious investment, particularly in current conditions, and bonuses are certainly not guaranteed and often absent in companies.
As to moving around in jobs, I'd agree there's probably more flexibility to move into a position within the company in the private sector - the public sector isn't renowned for being dynamic!

Well as you say yourself on both sides of the fence theres good and bad positions in public and private sectors. Increments are not guaranteed, can be blocked though poor performance, being at the top of your grade and no higher grade positions free to move up to. You could be stuck like that for years. In general its fairer in the Public Sector.

ixoy wrote: »

Don't you get flexi-time for overtime? Isn't that a form of pay? Certainly they do where I'm based.

Depends where you are. Where I've been theres no overtime, limited flexi time, and then only for certain grades. Shorter hours is the main difference, and there isn't the same mad pressure when money isn't involved, (usually someone else's bonus).

ixoy wrote: »

I'll agree that most are decent workers and quite competent and generally pleasant to deal with. I don't believe many are over-worked given the amount of empty desks I see on the public service said after 5 (or between 11 and 11:30...) but then I'm just in one area in a broader thing.

Well if you consider, if you have no overtime, you've built up the limit of your flexi time (might be 10hrs in a month) and you've a workload that you won't clear for at least 12 months, what incentive is there to work beyond your hours. Even when I worked in the private sector, rarely was there anything gained by working unpaid, hours, effectively working for free. If its done to get over a hump or as a favour, or your own interest, then fair enough. But it quickly becomes cultural, and taken advantage off. Theres always a few goof balls everywhere. More the bigger the organization what ever the sector.

ixoy wrote: »

I think the problem at the moment is I'm over-hearing a lot from one those union heads that you yourself recognise as an issue and it can be very aggravating listening to him and his "grievances". He, and his ilk, are the sort who will only help antagonise the pay deals on grounds that I believe are pretty baseless.

I think thats on the money. Met a few in the trades, when in the private sector, but they didn't have the power and influence that they do in Public Sector. They are shooting themselves in the foot if you ask me as there has to come a backlash. Its crazy how ingrained the unions are.