964 km of motorway in Ireland by 2015.

dubhthach

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Every time there's been proposals to improve transport infrastructure in Ireland we get the same arguments: we can't afford it, nobody will use it.

I'm not convinced at all by these arguments. Luckily the NRA has taken the decision to build a proper network of primary routes most of which will consist of motorways and 2+2s.

Roll on decent roads in Ireland. The End!

Indeed, no doubt 30years ago when the Naas bypass was been designed/built people were making the same argument, I know i've heard talk that alot of people originally thought the Westlink was a white elephant when it was built and that's only 20years ago.

scab-e

So we will have a huge motorway network for our population. By comparison, the UK will have 3.5 times our network length with 15 times our population. Even Germany will only have 12 times our network length with 20 times our population.

This had to happen. Our planning system required people to live in isolated rural housing and drive to the cities for work. So we had to build roads.

Cowen says now the only infrastructure that can be built now are roads under contract and he's right. Why build rail when we've spread our population like butter across our fields and valleys?

Lennoxschips

Yup, the motorway system as it's being built is basically a reflection of corrupt Irish planning.

This is more obvious to people who have spent long amounts of time in less corrupt countries.

Lennoxschips

scab-e wrote: »

Cowen says now the only infrastructure that can be built now are roads under contract and he's right. Why build rail when we've spread our population like butter across our fields and valleys?

Well, we did have a huge rail system already, but the government consigned it to the dustbin. Another huge waste of resources.

L1011

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Well, we did have a huge rail system already, but the government consigned it to the dustbin. Another huge waste of resources.

Northern Ireland's probably did worse under the UTA and much of that network was either narrow gauge or shockingly badly built.

However, if the lines had remained open it might have provided more of an impetus to upgrade them. Can't really tell what would have happened at this stage.

The closures from the 1950s onwards were far, far more stupid - The Youghal line in Cork would almost certainly be a valuable commuter service if still open, Waterford/Dungarvan possibly too.

Irish and Proud

scab-e wrote: »

So we will have a huge motorway network for our population. By comparison, the UK will have 3.5 times our network length with 15 times our population. Even Germany will only have 12 times our network length with 20 times our population.

This had to happen. Our planning system required people to live in isolated rural housing and drive to the cities for work. So we had to build roads.

Cowen says now the only infrastructure that can be built now are roads under contract and he's right. Why build rail when we've spread our population like butter across our fields and valleys?

It's about bloody time someone made the above point (in bold)!

I happen to live in one of those rural houses (living with parents) - wish I could afford to move out, but at the moment, I'm stuck with no transport (I don't drive), maintenance headaches (1/2 acre garden and large house), and if I try to walk, there's plenty of aggressive dogs around - sure this is Meath - why would we need transport when everyone has a car? - Sure who would be walking anyway? - Sure we all drive no matter what! If anyone wonders why the Navan Rail Line is in doubt, you've got your answer - this is Meath where the car rules supreme.

If in doubt, they're gradually scrapping the hard-shoulder on the old N1 (south of Europa Hotel) - apparently, MCC sees it as a regional road where the H/S is no longer neccessary - of course, there's no path provided either - that's on a road carrying up to 20K pcus/day - but who'd be walking or cycling anyway - IMO - it's disgusting, this practice of removing hardshoulders thereby ignoring the needs of cyclists and pedestrians.

Regards!

Irish and Proud

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Well, we did have a huge rail system already, but the government consigned it to the dustbin. Another huge waste of resources.

+1

Especially the Harcourt and Navan lines - around the time they were building the Victoria tube line in London...

...but sure railways were out of fashion! :rolleyes:

Regards!

scab-e

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Well, we did have a huge rail system already, but the government consigned it to the dustbin. Another huge waste of resources.

There would be no point in maintaining or building a large rail network when we have so successfully dispersed our population over the past decade.

There is nothing environmentally or economically beneficial abbout railway lines with no passenger demand such as Rosslare-Limerick. They're just lines on a map that cost a fortune to sustain.

The answer to our stupid choice of population dispersal is lots of roads.

When the market value of an Irish rural house has fallen beneath its replacement cost, people will wonder why they were ever built.

Zoney

No, the answer is to stop and reverse our population dispersal, and particularly to build up our regional cities and towns rather than make even more a mess out of Dublin.

Providing good road and rail links between Galway, Limerick and Cork would have been sensible. However, we're going to just about going to have a DC between Limerick and Galway (goat track still for the N20), and have a mediocre rail link between Limerick and Galway (better Limerick-Cork connections should have been a higher priority, but no doubt a bigger project as double-tracking Limerick-Limk Jctn and rearranging the layout there would have been needed, and maybe arrangements on the Cork line to cope with more traffic).

Of course the N20 could have been started already but for the initial muffing up of the roads programme resulting in over-budget (back in the late 90s early 00s) and not finishing by 2006 (the new promise of 2010 may still be broken). People seem content to think "ah sure at least they're being done" in response to the interurbans not having been finished two years ago, but the slippage by 4 years has had drastic impact. Imagine what would be underway now going into 2009, despite the downturn.

dubhthach

Zoney wrote: »

... and have a mediocre rail link between Limerick and Galway (better Limerick-Cork connections should have been a higher priority, but no doubt a bigger project as double-tracking Limerick-Limk Jctn and rearranging the layout there would have been needed, and maybe arrangements on the Cork line to cope with more traffic).

I'm assuming CIE still owns the land that made up the Cork Limerick Direct line. If so I think it would make more sense reopening it (it goes through Croom and Buree I think). Going by the 1906 map on wikipedia it's around the length of track from Limerick to Ennis. At least it would give alot more direct connection to Cork then going through Limerick-Junction.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg

Danno

There should be no argument really. Build it if it is required. If not required just yet, buy the land and build it some time in the near future when there is more of a need for it.

Idbatterim

so does any one else actually believe Northern Ireland still has a better road network? i doubt it!

BluntGuy

Lennoxschips wrote: »

So what... I can name five other towns of similar size that, under the current system, aren't near a motorway.

They aren't called inter-urbans for nothing, they're supposed to link the cities. We've chosen to do that as wastefully as possible, with a motorway from Dublin to Galway and a Motorway from Dublin to Limerick example. If they had been combined as far as Birr, and the M9/M8 combined for a Dublin-Kilkenny-Waterford-Cork route, there'd be plenty of money left over and the M20 would have been already been built. Pood old Urlingford would have had to make do with an empty and unused N8.

The mindset that every TD must have a motorway in his/her constituency is precisely the reason that we're still building now. If we had competent government, an efficient and useful network would have already been build.
The case for building a motorway system as dense as the German one isn't there: 80 million people live in Germany. You can be sure if we had let German engineers plan our network that they'd have come up with something much more efficient.

Well I'm for building motorways that link as many towns as possible to the system. Yes motorways are primarily for inter-city travel, but they shouldn't be exclusively for that. The M7, M6, M9 and M8 all link countless towns and villages to a high-quality network, and I think that is good value.

And I lived in England for years so I know what a messy motorway system is.

I think our current plan is fine, and is one of the only things this idiotic, corrupt and wasteful government has managed to get right.

marmurr1916

One-off rural housing is a blight on the landscape but it's not solely the fault of the politicians.

Irish people built these houses and the planning system which facilitated them was a reflection of the peoples wishes.

Don't blame successive governments for acceding to peoples wishes.

The individuals who built or bought one-off rural housing without demonstrating a need (working/living in the area) for these houses are as much to blame as politicians, especially local politicians.

Many times in the past, people were refused planning permission for one-off rural houses. They appealed to their local councillors for help. There used to be a mechanism (a Section 4 motion) whereby councillors could vote to overturn the decision of the planning officials and grant permission for these houses.

This was done by councillors despite the fact that the cost of servicing these houses is much higher than if they were built in towns or villages.

Why don't the councillors care about the extra costs? Because we don't have any system of local taxation for non-commercial property in Ireland and therefore councillors don't worry about saving taxpayers' money since they won't gain any votes from doing so. In fact the votes are in getting the planning permission.

If we had a system of local taxation (not a council tax like in the UK, but maybe a local income tax) then those responsible (local councillors) for spending that money would be much more careful as they'd lose votes if taxes had to be raised because of their foolish planning decisions.

Let's not forget that Irish people voted for the government that abolished local residential taxation back in 1977. No political party since has made any credible or serious proposal for the re-introduction of some form of local taxation. Why? Because they know the voters wouldn't wear it.

Whose fault is that?

BluntGuy

marmurr1916 wrote: »

One-off rural housing is a blight on the landscape but it's not solely the fault of the politicians.

Irish people built these houses and the planning system which facilitated them was a reflection of the peoples wishes.

Don't blame successive governments for acceding to peoples wishes.

The individuals who built or bought one-off rural housing without demonstrating a need (working/living in the area) for these houses are as much to blame as politicians, especially local politicians.

Many times in the past, people were refused planning permission for one-off rural houses. They appealed to their local councillors for help. There used to be a mechanism (a Section 4 motion) whereby councillors could vote to overturn the decision of the planning officials and grant permission for these houses.

This was done by councillors despite the fact that the cost of servicing these houses is much higher than if they were built in towns or villages.

Why don't the councillors care about the extra costs? Because we don't have any system of local taxation for non-commercial property in Ireland and therefore councillors don't worry about saving taxpayers' money since they won't gain any votes from doing so. In fact the votes are in getting the planning permission.

If we had a system of local taxation (not a council tax like in the UK, but maybe a local income tax) then those responsible (local councillors) for spending that money would be much more careful as they'd lose votes if taxes had to be raised because of their foolish planning decisions.

Let's not forget that Irish people voted for the government that abolished local residential taxation back in 1977. No political party since has made any credible or serious proposal for the re-introduction of some form of local taxation. Why? Because they know the voters wouldn't wear it.

Whose fault is that?

Yes I totally agree.

Many people have chosen to build their houses in the middle-of-nowhere™ where their houses are very expensive to provide for.

BluntGuy

Zoney wrote: »

No, the answer is to stop and reverse our population dispersal, and particularly to build up our regional cities and towns rather than make even more a mess out of Dublin.

Providing good road and rail links between Galway, Limerick and Cork would have been sensible. However, we're going to just about going to have a DC between Limerick and Galway (goat track still for the N20), and have a mediocre rail link between Limerick and Galway (better Limerick-Cork connections should have been a higher priority, but no doubt a bigger project as double-tracking Limerick-Limk Jctn and rearranging the layout there would have been needed, and maybe arrangements on the Cork line to cope with more traffic).

Of course the N20 could have been started already but for the initial muffing up of the roads programme resulting in over-budget (back in the late 90s early 00s) and not finishing by 2006 (the new promise of 2010 may still be broken). People seem content to think "ah sure at least they're being done" in response to the interurbans not having been finished two years ago, but the slippage by 4 years has had drastic impact. Imagine what would be underway now going into 2009, despite the downturn.

But people always think 'ah sure' to everything. That's why the government can get away with being so corrupt.

I totally agree with you on that point. Everytime a politician - who shouldn't even be doing this mind you - opens a new stretch of road 'ahead of schedule' I almost feel sick. Lads, unless you've got some sort of magical time machine, NONE OF THE INTER-URBANS are ever going to be delivered ON SCHEDULE BECAUSE THE TIME WAS UP AGES AGO.

I'm glad they're being done, but they should've been done already. Still, I don't like to be the pessimist.

Lennoxschips

Well I'm for building motorways that link as many towns as possible to the system. Yes motorways are primarily for inter-city travel, but they shouldn't be exclusively for that. The M7, M6, M9 and M8 all link countless towns and villages to a high-quality network, and I think that is good value.

I'd argue the opposite. These towns were already served by decent quality roads (N8/N7/N6) that were adequate for towns of that size.

If the motorways had been built along a different corridor, near other "countless towns and villages" which weren't already on a major national primary route, then even more towns and villages served as a result. And we'd wouldn't have had to build more motorway to do it.

As it is, the likes of Cahir are served by motorway bypass dating from 2008 and a National Primary bypass dating from the 1990s. While other towns of similar size are still on secondary primary horsetracks.

The duplication of existing routes is wasteful.

Calina

dubhthach wrote: »

I'm assuming CIE still owns the land that made up the Cork Limerick Direct line. If so I think it would make more sense reopening it (it goes through Croom and Buree I think). Going by the 1906 map on wikipedia it's around the length of track from Limerick to Ennis. At least it would give alot more direct connection to Cork then going through Limerick-Junction.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Map_Rail_Ireland_Viceregal_Commission_1906.jpg

I think that they might not, to be honest. And just carefully dredging up a memory of the arrangement of Bruree from my memory I don't think relaying track is straightforward around there and although I'd appreciate a look at an contemporary OS map for Charleville at the time, I think that might not be exactly straightforward either.

Danno wrote: »

There should be no argument really. Build it if it is required. If not required just yet, buy the land and build it some time in the near future when there is more of a need for it.

The issue is that different people have different views on whether it is required or not.

Idbatterim wrote: »

so does any one else actually believe Northern Ireland still has a better road network? i doubt it!

I was somewhat disillusioned by the poor condition of road surface the last time I drove to Donegal via parts of NI.

BluntGuy wrote: »

Well I'm for building motorways that link as many towns as possible to the system. Yes motorways are primarily for inter-city travel, but they shouldn't be exclusively for that. The M7, M6, M9 and M8 all link countless towns and villages to a high-quality network, and I think that is good value.

And I lived in England for years so I know what a messy motorway system is.

I think our current plan is fine, and is one of the only things this idiotic, corrupt and wasteful government has managed to get right.

I think that we are better off recognising the amount of traffic using the roads concerned rather than focusing on how the towns along said route compare to cities in other countries. The profile of traffic on the N20 route pretty much demands a motorway route in my view, with reasonable access for the towns along said motorway. In general, it needs to be recognised that the route as it stands carrries a hell of a lot of traffic from midpoints on it to the endpoints; it's not just purely LK to C traffic and vice versa.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

One-off rural housing is a blight on the landscape but it's not solely the fault of the politicians.

Irish people built these houses and the planning system which facilitated them was a reflection of the peoples wishes.

Don't blame successive governments for acceding to peoples wishes.

The individuals who built or bought one-off rural housing without demonstrating a need (working/living in the area) for these houses are as much to blame as politicians, especially local politicians.

Many times in the past, people were refused planning permission for one-off rural houses. They appealed to their local councillors for help. There used to be a mechanism (a Section 4 motion) whereby councillors could vote to overturn the decision of the planning officials and grant permission for these houses.

This was done by councillors despite the fact that the cost of servicing these houses is much higher than if they were built in towns or villages.

Why don't the councillors care about the extra costs? Because we don't have any system of local taxation for non-commercial property in Ireland and therefore councillors don't worry about saving taxpayers' money since they won't gain any votes from doing so. In fact the votes are in getting the planning permission.

If we had a system of local taxation (not a council tax like in the UK, but maybe a local income tax) then those responsible (local councillors) for spending that money would be much more careful as they'd lose votes if taxes had to be raised because of their foolish planning decisions.

Let's not forget that Irish people voted for the government that abolished local residential taxation back in 1977. No political party since has made any credible or serious proposal for the re-introduction of some form of local taxation. Why? Because they know the voters wouldn't wear it.

Whose fault is that?

I'm going to keep this short and simple: the alternatives that we got over the last 10 years; the commuter ville estates with the management companies and poor access to commuter roads and public transport are worse from a lifestyle point of view.

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I'd argue the opposite. These towns were already served by decent quality roads (N8/N7/N6) that were adequate for towns of that size.

If the motorways had been built along a different corridor, near other "countless towns and villages" which weren't already on a major national primary route, then even more towns and villages served as a result. And we'd wouldn't have had to build more motorway to do it.

As it is, the likes of Cahir are served by motorway bypass dating from 2008 and a National Primary bypass dating from the 1990s. While other towns of similar size are still on secondary primary horsetracks.

The duplication of existing routes is wasteful.

I'd include the Mitchelstown bypass as an example. The issue is that it takes such a long time to get those motorway bypasses done that short term solutions wind up being necessary.

Jamie2k9

I'm new here but does anyone know why the N25 Waterford City Bypass has not been upgraded to a motorway standerd. I travel on it a lot and it should be a motorway. The new road network into Waterford City is fantastic and state of the art.

D'Peoples Voice

Fair play Jamie for opening this thread, great to read through it again, hopefully the mods won't lock it now:rolleyes:

Anyway the answer to your question is here, can't remember which,,,,

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055434201

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055775226
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055708913
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055531024
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055775226
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055828745
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055469706
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055709478
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055775226
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055708913
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055372962

JupiterKid

Despite the total mess this country is well and truly mired in - the motorway network that has been developed over the past decade is a great achievement and one of the few positive legacies of the boom/bubble era.

Godge

T Corolla wrote: »

There will still be more railway in ireland in 2015 than motorway. When the inconnector is built and the merto north these toll bridges wont be as full.
There will be a big shift back to public transport because it will be the other options that hopefully will be efficent. I hope oil prices dont go to 200 dollars a barrell or there wont be many cars on the dualcarriage ways
Dont get me wrong i not against dualcarriage ways they have made life alot easier for the whole country i just feel that more money should be placed into public transport. I feel that there is far to much money spent on them and there should be a shift in focus to public transport like some european countries who in the past have started to spend more on rail infrastructure than motorways. In my heart i feel alot more money should have been put into public transport at the start of the celtic tiger we probably be as far on with a modern rail infracture and ultimely a efficent rail company to run it.When the government has to answer for their carbon emmisions in the future they may shift the focus to the public transport system ran than the cushy PPP system

If oil goes to 200 dollars a barrel, then electric cars (which will have better batteries by 2015) will become a real option. Generation by wind, water or nuclear will ensure that private cars never go away.

Godge

Godge wrote: »

If oil goes to 200 dollars a barrel, then electric cars (which will have better batteries by 2015) will become a real option. Generation by wind, water or nuclear will ensure that private cars never go away.

Hmm, maybe for the top earners, the rest of us will be walking or on the bus. It's not the price of oil, it's tha availability that will decide the number of vehicles on the road.

Back on topic!
Anyway that's at least another decade away, we'll get some good use out of the motorways first.