964 km of motorway in Ireland by 2015.

BluntGuy

Our fastest locomotives can go 100 mph (164 kmph). That isn't amazingly impressive but it still quite a bit faster than the motorway speed limit of 75 mph. If our locomotives could do a constant 100 mph speed then their could be impressive enough journey-time savings to be made compared to road travel. But sadly, our rail infrastructure means that our locomotives cannot travel their fastest, and therefore will make rail travel (which is meant to be quicker the road) irrelevant when the inter-urbans are complete. It's a shame, because it's always nice to take a train journey to places. But if you can get there quicker on a bus (and for less), why would you use the train?

Victor

Cherry Orchard-Inchicore is on the long finger, at least until the Interconnector is under construction. Only Cherry Orchard to Hazelhatch was approved for quad-tracking on cost grounds. Cork to St. Stephen's Green (and quite a few other palce in Dublin and beyond) will be much quick by rail with the Interconnector in place. Cork-Dublin could be 2:20 to 2:30 when the speed restrictions and padding for stripped out.

I agree, most of Cork-Waterford-Rosslare is adequate. What is most needed is to bypass Waterford (under construction) New Ross (planned) and the remaining villages.

dannym08 wrote: »

if this does happen it will probably push up prices even more and then nobody will be able to use them anyway. IrishRail needs to regulated in someway because their prices are way to expensive

Maximum fares are regulated by the Department of Transport. There are lots of reduced fares available. http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=402

mysterious

Great to see all these motorways now all going ahead.
But the N20 and N18 are losing out. Wait a minute, these roads are getting the long finger for the M17 to go ahead:eek:

Its absurd planning and white elephant planning here again. I know the M17 is needed, but Id much rather see a relief road built for Claregalway for the time being.

The N18/N20 at present is getting no attention. The Ennis bypass was proposed 25 years ago and only started 3 years ago. Even then it was meant to start around 2001, but got shelved for a few years. Gort at present will just not cope with the heavier traffic with faster roads been built to the south of it. Plus this, The M17 will fly down to the N18 from the north and leave Gort jacknifed between two motorways?

I'd tell you I'd run the NRA better myself!

BTW
M20 should be built along the n24 axis, just mariginally to the south of it. and swing south of tipperary and connect to the M8 at Cahir and muliplex

YOU have 2 motorways for the price of one. The Waterford/Limerick corridor would be half built for having a motorway joining with Cork. But no we'd rather let moronic fools build ****e planned roads. we have idiots running in the NRA design office:mad: Local politicians wanting to give white elephant bypasses for the benifet of local interest..................

Irish and Proud

mysterious wrote: »

Great to see all these motorways now all going ahead.
But the N20 and N18 are losing out. Wait a minute, these roads are getting the long finger for the M17 to go ahead:eek:

Are you sure?

Not so long ago, I heard that the M17 was to be shelved, and that there would be difficulty (without a PPP) in getting funding for the M18 which was a much greater priority.

mysterious wrote: »

Its absurd planning and white elephant planning here again. I know the M17 is needed, but Id much rather see a relief road built for Claregalway for the time being.

+1 :pac:

mysterious wrote: »

The N18/N20 at present is getting no attention. The Ennis bypass was proposed 25 years ago and only started 3 years ago. Even then it was meant to start around 2001, but got shelved for a few years. Gort at present will just not cope with the heavier traffic with faster roads been built to the south of it. Plus this, The M17 will fly down to the N18 from the north and leave Gort jacknifed between two motorways?

Somebody ("important") obviously lives near Tuam!!! :mad:

How do they get away with it??? :mad:

Regards!

Gonzo

That M17 to Tuam is crazy, im sure an upgrade is needed, 4 lane road with a white line dividing the 2 directions wud be alot more economical. The N18 and N20 upgrades are far more needed than the N17 to Tuam and should be tackled first. The N20 in particular is a death-trap and needs urgent attention.

L1011

dannym08 wrote: »

if this does happen it will probably push up prices even more and then nobody will be able to use them anyway. IrishRail needs to regulated in someway because their prices are way to expensive

You've never taken a train anywhere else in the world then, I see?

Irish Rail's prices are, by European standards, extremely cheap. Look at our nearest neighbours (I don't mean NIRailways for this though) to see what I mean. Theres barely a journey in England where the petrol to drive there costs more than the ticket.

invincibleirish

mysterious wrote: »

BTW
M20 should be built along the n24 axis, just mariginally to the south of it. and swing south of tipperary and connect to the M8 at Cahir and muliplex

Nope, you're the second person to float this crazy idea. The N20 acts as a bypass of Mallow, Charleville & Buttevant as well as improving journey times between Cork - Limerick(and improving Mallow - Cork very important), if you do as you propose you'll still have to do something about the awful state of the N20 and the congestion in Buttevant & Charleville whilst wasting an awful lot of money.

Its all well and good proposing building new Motorways ploughing through the open empty Tipperary countryside(like it needs another one) but lets not forget WHY the plans for an N20 upgrade are being discussed it has nothing to do with the N24.

Lennoxschips

I was the first person to suggest it. And now there's another. Perhaps it's not such a crazy idea.

Move all the Cork-Limerick traffic off that route and suddenly it will become less congested. Plus you don't have to build as much motorway, because you use existing (and underused) stretches of the N/M8.

And Mallow, Charleville etc. can still have a single carriageway bypass. Since when do all bypasses have to be motorway standard?

D.L.R.

Not hearing the anti-M20 arguement lads, sorry.

The N roads aren't just lines on a map they are the most densely populated corridors in rural Ireland, and motorways should come to the people, not the other way round.

Its about building the strength of regions as a whole, not just the cities at the end.

BluntGuy

I think the M20 is ultimately a good idea.

Offering the most DIRECT route from Cork to Limerick.

And don't forget, we have to give all the towns inbetween high-speed links to the cities as well.

I saw one person suggest that the M8 should've branched off closer to Limerick for Cork and you'd be getting an M8 and M20 in one. Good idea in theory. But think about it. Cashel, Cahir, Fermoy, Urlingford, Mitchelstown and many other towns and villages would be missing out on a motorway link.

I think the system we've adopted is the best one. It offers motorway options to the largest feasible number of towns and villages. Motorways aren't just for people going from city to city. The towns inbetween must be considered too.

That's why I'm in favour of an M20. I would then opt for upgrades to the N18/N17, the N15, the N25 and then the N24 to at least 2+2 or WS2 standard (none of that 2+1 crap)...

Sponge Bob

Frankly the best option is the M20 and the least worst option is the 'M24'

Once upon a time the N24 was part of a MIU called the Western Corridor which ran from Rosslare - Waterford- Limerick .

Of course feck all was ever really done with it this being Ireland , maybe post 2020 if we are lucky

Its not mad busy at its midpoint east of Cahir , 11k vehicles a day , slightly less than the M18 south of Gort and indeed the M8 south of Cahir. Claregalway - Galway is 30k vehicles a day .

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N24-11.htm

Maybe Motorway Clonmel-M9 and Tipp- Limerick and 2+2 on the rest.

marmurr1916

M20/M7 wouldn't be the most direct route from Cork to Dublin. Cork-Limerick is about 100km; Limerick-Dublin is about 190km. Cork-Dublin via M8/M7 will be about 240-250k; that's a difference of between 40-50km.

A dead straight road between Cork and Dublin would run Cork-Cahir-Athy-Dublin! Damn those Romans for not invading!

If you branched a motorway off the M8 at Mitchelstown (to roughly follow the line of the R513 via Hospital) you'd have a Cork-Limerick motorway that could join the N24 near Beary's Cross. The N24 could be upgraded to motorway from there to the Limerick SRR.

Anyway, it doesn't look likely to happen since the NRA wants to build an M20 close to the line of the N20. The N18 will be dual-carriageway (maybe with a section of motorway) by that stage.

I don't really see the need at present for a HQDC/motorway from Galway-Sligo-Derry. AFAIK, the NRA plans to build some sections of motorway/HQDC (eg: Athenry-Tuam) with most of the rest of the route being 2+2.

I'm not certain but I think that most non-motorway/HQDC upgrades to the first 25 national primary routes are being planned as 2+2. The other route that's going to be upgraded to dual-carriageway is the N28 from Cork to Ringaskiddy.

Eventually I think that there will be almost no significant sections of single-carriageway on the first 25 national primary routes.

murphaph

D.L.R. wrote: »

Not hearing the anti-M20 arguement lads, sorry.

Nor am I.

D.L.R. wrote: »

The N roads aren't just lines on a map they are the most densely populated corridors in rural Ireland, and motorways should come to the people, not the other way round.

This is also the basic premise of the german Autobahn network. I believe the 1974 set a target of something like an Autobahn within a maximum of 10km from every point in Germany. It sounds ridiculous but the point was (and is) that these motorway type roads are the safest around-we want to take people off bad local roads onto high quality divided highways as quickly as possible. The UK opted for a different approach and quite frankly, having once believed they were right, I now believe they were wrong and the bulging D4/5Ms in England proves it.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its about building the strength of regions as a whole, not just the cities at the end.

This is where I disagree with you slightly-I want our cities developed more and our countryside developed less. I want motorway links between major centres of population and I want those motorways to be as limited access as possible, to reduce their usability for commuting from 3000 sq foot mansions in our once beautiful countryside to work in the cities.

marmurr1916

I've got to agree with that. In time I'd like to see all major national primary routes to/from Dublin upgraded to motorway standard, along with the Atlantic Corridor routes and the N24 and N25. Then it would be good to see some key national secondary routes upgraded to provide extra capacity/redundancy on the network along with better links between regional centres to stimulate development in line with the National Spatial Strategy.

I don't think the Germans wanted everywhere to be within 10km of a motorway junction. There's no way that would be possible in huge chunks of Bavaria or other mountainous regions anyway!

The NRA has come in for some fierce criticism for its routing of various motorways. It's good to see that people are starting to realise that its decisions were correct.

The British need to start building better railways now rather than concentrating on roads. New figures show that England is now the most densely populated country in the EU (except for Malta!):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7618994.stm

There's very little room for major new off-line road developments. Any major new motorways or dual-carriageways would eat up precious countryside and would be likely to meet fierce resistance. In fact, I'd say major offline road developments in southern England are almost politically impossible to contemplate now.

There might be some room for large-scale road improvements in northern England (north of a line roughly from Liverpool to Hull). That part of England is relatively sparsely populated except for the region between Middlesborough and the greater Newcastle area. The A1 needs to be upgraded to motorway and some of the major link roads between the the east coast and the M6 could do with upgrades too.

That generally leaves railways as the only viable alternatives. New high-speed rail links will carve up almost as much countryside as new motorways but would be a lot more acceptable to the general public.

Just to put it in perspective - England has a population of over 50 million people in an area of about 130000 square kilometres. The island of Ireland is 84421 square kilometres with a population of less than 6 million people. And we complain about congestion here!

BluntGuy

Well I think it's best to built a large network of D2Ms (like in Germany) rather than cramming everybody onto a few motorways that lead to Dublin.

Sure it's cheaper... in the SHORT TERM.

Once we have our motorway network built, we won't have to touch the those roads (apart from maintainence of course) for many, many decades to come. Many of the routes will have redudant capacity built into them.

We can then focus on making some of our appualing country roads safer and invest much more money in public transport.

marmurr1916

I know. I agree with you! Read my post carefully!

There are seven main centres of population in Ireland that should be connected to each other by motorway: Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Derry, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. Pretty soon Dublin will be connected to most of these centres by motorway/dual-carriageway (although I dunno what's happening with the N2/A5 corridor).

If the M20/N18 is completed that'll link Cork, Limerick and Galway. All we need to do then is build a motorway from Galway to Derry (although I don't think that'll be needed for a long while yet), and from Limerick and Cork to Waterford (again that's not likely to happen for a good while).

Once these main links are completed it would be good to see some other routes upgraded to motorway standard.

invincibleirish

Lennoxschips wrote: »

I was the first person to suggest it. And now there's another. Perhaps it's not such a crazy idea.

Move all the Cork-Limerick traffic off that route and suddenly it will become less congested. Plus you don't have to build as much motorway, because you use existing (and underused) stretches of the N/M8.

And Mallow, Charleville etc. can still have a single carriageway bypass. Since when do all bypasses have to be motorway standard?

The N20 carries considerably more traffic now at all points then the N24 does according to the NRA counters.

An M20 will serve Cork/Limerick and several population centres in between. An M24 will be going through pretty much open countryside to Cahir.

Journey times between Cork Limerick on a 120km/hr M20 will surpass any time an upgraded M8 & M24 will offer, and there wont be a toll to negotiate.

What you propose is a case of White Elephant infrastructure. Sure the N24 is a national route between 2 Cities, but the N20 is a more important national route used by more people both now and in the future and thus is entitled to be ahead in the queue for money to be upgraded (if there is any).

invincibleirish

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I

There are seven main centres of population in Ireland that should be connected to each other by motorway: Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Derry, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. Pretty soon Dublin will be connected to most of these centres by motorway/dual-carriageway (although I dunno what's happening with the N2/A5 corridor).

Should there be? thats 7 centres of population, half of which dont have a population above 5 figures.

marmurr1916

'Greater' Derry and Limerick (say within 10 miles/16 km of their centres) certainly have populations of around 100,000.

Ireland's population is projected to grow to 5.5 million by 2050 and most of this will be concentrated in the larger urban centres. It makes sense to build decent links between them.

Anyway the NRA's policy is to build future improved sections of national primary route to at least 2+2 standard on routes 1-25. Many of these 2+2 sections will do for the forseeable future but it would make sense to upgrade them to HQDC/motorway standard at some point.

In fact, it might even make more sense to build motorways between the major centres now. It would actually save money in the long-term.

The recession won't last forever so we'll be able to afford this programme when the economy recovers.

jrar

BluntGuy wrote: »

I'm sure I've posted this before, but if anyone's interested, here's a list of every motorway scheme that is sure to be finished by 2015:

Motorway Lengths 2015 (Ireland)
M50 - 45 km (28 mi) (Dublin Ring Road)
M25 - 23 km (14 mi) (Waterford Bypass)
M20 - 90 km (56 mi) (Cork-Limerick)
M17 - 25.5 km (15 mi) (Galway-Tuam)
M11 - 8 km (5 mi) (M50 Extension)
M9 - 116.5 km (73 mi) (Dublin - Waterford - via M7)
M8 - 155 km (96 mi) (Dublin - Cork - via M7)
M7 - 175 km (109 mi) (Dublin - Limerick)
M6 - 144 km (90 mi) (Dublin - Galway - via M4)
M4 - 55 km (34 mi) (Dublin - North West)
M3 - 47 km (29 mi) (Dublin - Kells)
M1 - 80 km (50 mi) (Dublin - Belfast)

964 km (602 mi) of motorway in Ireland by 2015

Note that doesn't take into account a possible 49km (30 mi) M18 motorway, a 13km (8 mi) M25 extension at New Ross, an M10 spur and various other schemes.

So what do you think?

Very impressive IF they all get built/finished given the downturn in the public finances.

But even if only 60/70% end up being delivered, that will still be major progress compared to relatively recent times...............then all we'll have to do is train people how to drive on them properly !

invincibleirish

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Ireland's population is projected to grow to 5.5 million by 2050 and most of this will be concentrated in the larger urban centres. It makes sense to build decent links between them.

Most of that population will be concentrated in one area - Dublin.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Anyway the NRA's policy is to build future improved sections of national primary route to at least 2+2 standard on routes 1-25. Many of these 2+2 sections will do for the forseeable future but it would make sense to upgrade them to HQDC/motorway standard at some point.

In fact, it might even make more sense to build motorways between the major centres now. It would actually save money in the long-term.

The recession won't last forever so we'll be able to afford this programme when the economy recovers.

All well and good but remember NRA policy is not Government policy. its taken over a decade yet now we're only coming to the conclusion of the original Inter Urban programme. what you propose is a commitment to endless miles of potentially little used infrastructure. I think its better to build whats needed when needed. That means avoiding situations like where the SRR upgrades were put on hold whilst the M8 got priority.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

The N20 carries considerably more traffic now at all points then the N24 does according to the NRA counters.

An M20 will serve Cork/Limerick and several population centres in between. An M24 will be going through pretty much open countryside to Cahir.

Journey times between Cork Limerick on a 120km/hr M20 will surpass any time an upgraded M8 & M24 will offer, and there wont be a toll to negotiate.

What you propose is a case of White Elephant infrastructure. Sure the N24 is a national route between 2 Cities, but the N20 is a more important national route used by more people both now and in the future and thus is entitled to be ahead in the queue for money to be upgraded (if there is any).

Agreed.

There is little point in upgrading the N24 before then N20.

An M20 would cater for towns that currently don't have a motorway link. I can see a 2+2 N24 or even an M24 in the future, perhaps 5 to 15 years. But it should not take priority over other schemes.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

All well and good but remember NRA policy is not Government policy. its taken over a decade yet now we're only coming to the conclusion of the original Inter Urban programme. what you propose is a commitment to endless miles of potentially little used infrastructure. I think its better to build whats needed when needed. That means avoiding situations like where the SRR upgrades were put on hold whilst the M8 got priority.

I can certainly see your point. The SRR does need to be sorted out as it gets a larger amount of usage than an average section of the M8.

BUT... in a national context, which one is more important. The M8 is part of the major artery between the Republic's two biggest cities (and of course all the towns that lie inbetween). OVERALL, the M8 will serve many more people than the SRR upgrades (even if the AADT on an average section is lower).

I'm not saying the SRR upgrades aren't important or needed. I use that road quite a lot myself, but certainly in a national context, the M8 was right to priority.

I would however not like to see the M17 take priority over the M20.

invincibleirish

BluntGuy wrote: »

I can certainly see your point. The SRR does need to be sorted out as it gets a larger amount of usage than an average section of the M8.

BUT... in a national context, which one is more important. The M8 is part of the major artery between the Republic's two biggest cities (and of course all the towns that lie inbetween). OVERALL, the M8 will serve many more people than the SRR upgrades (even if the AADT on an average section is lower).

I'm not saying the SRR upgrades aren't important or needed. I use that road quite a lot myself, but certainly in a national context, the M8 was right to priority.

Im not saying the M8 should be left incomplete, im just saying that a section of it could have been postponed by a year or two to free up cash for the 2 remaining SRR interchanges.(or even better lightly used parts of other interurbans be temporarily postponed)

Think about it Mitchelstown -Fermoy is long fingered for 2/3 years, there is a Mitchelstown bypass already in place.

Now apply it to everyday usage, the SRR interchanges are used by a multiple of the number that will be using sections of the M8 whilst M8 traffic would only have to negotiate one non DC section with little potential for traffic problems for a few extra years.

To tie it back in to the theme of the thread i just dont see the point in committing to building expensive infrastructure in then ame of 'national' development/interest whilst ignoring obvious bottlenecks.

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

Im not saying the M8 should be left incomplete, im just saying that a section of it could have been postponed by a year or two to free up cash for the 2 remaining SRR interchanges.(or even better lightly used parts of other interurbans be temporarily postponed)

Think about it Mitchelstown -Fermoy is long fingered for 2/3 years, there is a Mitchelstown bypass already in place.

Now apply it to everyday usage, the SRR interchanges are used by a multiple of the number that will be using sections of the M8 whilst M8 traffic would only have to negotiate one non DC section with little potential for traffic problems for a few extra years.

To tie it back in to the theme of the thread i just dont see the point in committing to building expensive infrastructure in then ame of 'national' development/interest whilst ignoring obvious bottlenecks.

Well I'd have to agree with your point about the Mitchelstown bypass. The Mitchelstown-Fermoy was by far one of the best stretches of the old N8, and doesn't really suffer from traffic problems.

But I guess they were just anxious to get the whole route finished. It makes sense, it means they won't have to go to the extra expense of finishing it later.

The Bandon and Sarfield road roundabouts do need some major sorting out though. I wouldn't have minded if the Mitch-Fermoy section was put on hold for that. But ANYTHING ELSE (except the M20) I wouldn't have accepted...

Danno

If we can't build them roads now, at least buy up the bloody land for them now and build it in 5 or 10 years time! Land value is falling, but will not fall too much further so it would not be a waste of public money to buy this land. Then in years to come tender out the design and build of these roads. However, future PPPs should be on the concept that a design and build for a SET FIGURE RETURN. Toll bridges only exist while a set figure return exists then they are removed/or kept at a 20% rate to cover road maintainance. /rant

marmurr1916

invincibleirish wrote: »

Most of that population will be concentrated in one area - Dublin.

No. Greater Dublin currently has 30% of the population of the ROI. If you include Northern Ireland it has about 22% of the total population of the island.

If we're serious about balanced regional development (and the existence of the National Spatial Strategy suggests we are) then the main population centres need to have decent infrastructure.

invincibleirish wrote: »

All well and good but remember NRA policy is not Government policy. its taken over a decade yet now we're only coming to the conclusion of the original Inter Urban programme. what you propose is a commitment to endless miles of potentially little used infrastructure. I think its better to build whats needed when needed. That means avoiding situations like where the SRR upgrades were put on hold whilst the M8 got priority.

Endless miles of potentially little used infrastructure? Hardly. I'm proposing the improvement of the busiest national primary routes and the upgrading of certain national secondary routes which would provide a super-bypass of Dublin, relieving congestion on the M50 and avoiding the need to build the DOOR motorway.

Lennoxschips

But think about it. Cashel, Cahir, Fermoy, Urlingford, Mitchelstown and many other towns and villages would be missing out on a motorway link.

So what... I can name five other towns of similar size that, under the current system, aren't near a motorway.

They aren't called inter-urbans for nothing, they're supposed to link the cities. We've chosen to do that as wastefully as possible, with a motorway from Dublin to Galway and a Motorway from Dublin to Limerick example. If they had been combined as far as Birr, and the M9/M8 combined for a Dublin-Kilkenny-Waterford-Cork route, there'd be plenty of money left over and the M20 would have been already been built. Pood old Urlingford would have had to make do with an empty and unused N8.

The mindset that every TD must have a motorway in his/her constituency is precisely the reason that we're still building now. If we had competent government, an efficient and useful network would have already been build.
The case for building a motorway system as dense as the German one isn't there: 80 million people live in Germany. You can be sure if we had let German engineers plan our network that they'd have come up with something much more efficient.

invincibleirish

marmurr1916 wrote: »

No. Greater Dublin currently has 30% of the population of the ROI. If you include Northern Ireland it has about 22% of the total population of the island.

If we're serious about balanced regional development (and the existence of the National Spatial Strategy suggests we are) then the main population centres need to have decent infrastructure.

You misread me, the GDA is going to be where most of the increased population growth you cite will occur, the other urban areas will remain somewhat static in conmparison IIRC.

This country isnt serious about balanced regional development. the NSS is a plan that was a sop to 'interests' taking precedent over careful planning. Why? because having 8 'gateways' and 9 'hubs' (compromising over 20 urban areas ranging in size from Cork to Cavan) is not a strategy that will produce results, focusing development in these areas & Dublin is beyond the means of a small country.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Endless miles of potentially little used infrastructure? Hardly. I'm proposing the improvement of the busiest national primary routes and the upgrading of certain national secondary routes which would provide a super-bypass of Dublin, relieving congestion on the M50 and avoiding the need to build the DOOR motorway.

the case for connecting the regional cities to Dublin was dubious enough, remember a Motorway is designed for 55k a day, outside of the GDA these numbers are rarely reached. You seem to be citing the old mantra of building big new shiny roads which will spur economic investment. No they wont and having a Derry - Galway Motorway/DC or Waterford - Limerick is all well and good but unless the traffic volumes come near justifying building it in the first place it will be a waste of money! Money that can be used to build Roads/rail elsewhere that more people will be likely to use.

marmurr1916

Every time there's been proposals to improve transport infrastructure in Ireland we get the same arguments: we can't afford it, nobody will use it.

I'm not convinced at all by these arguments. Luckily the NRA has taken the decision to build a proper network of primary routes most of which will consist of motorways and 2+2s.

Roll on decent roads in Ireland. The End!