Article in Irish Examiner

Fallschirmjager

i think we are missing one thing here ...it still only has 1J of energy....

so what it is made of is feeding a frenzy for the anti airsoft crowd and it is rapidly becoming a mob..

a .2g of kryptonite is still only .2g and an airsoft aeg firing 1j is still 1j...

i think we are falling for the trap that airsoft is moving to real firearms...it isnt...the metal issue is meant only to try and associate us with same.

weeder

although i knew you could get those (and yes in n0.2 if you look hard enough)

still not convinced this is airsoft related since the article states illegal firearm

kevteljeur

o1s1n wrote: »

They're not .2g. My point still stands

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

If it was .43 ok, but many of the snipers out there right now use .28-.3g in plastic, whats wrong with doing the same with metal?

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

i think we are missing one thing here ...it still only has 1J of energy....

so what it is made of is feeding a frenzy for the anti airsoft crowd and it is rapidly becoming a mob..

a .2g of kryptonite is still only .2g and an airsoft aeg firing 1j is still 1j...

i think we are falling for the trap that airsoft is moving to real firearms...it isnt...the metal issue is meant only to try and associate us with same.

I seem to remember that the issue with use of aluminium bbs was similar to that with other non-plastic materials; the properties of the bb and how it deals with the impact energy affect the impact. A good way to see this in action is firing the bbs at a hard surface at close range, and see what happens to both the bb and the surface. I believe that metal bbs will impart more energy to the surface they hit - or, give a harder hit. That could be an issue with goggles or hits from short range. You really could injure someone with aluminium bbs, though at this point I'm theorising and when kdouglas resurfaces he might have something to say about it.

Fallschirmjager

i think you are falling for the same trap ....what you are transferring is the energy (and its mass), not the physical properties...

metal has a whole oooh and aaahhh about it. a bullet does its damage because its delivering the energy of the explosion in the shell. the reasons it is metal is that metal is the cheapest most efficient way of delivering that energy without disintegrating and it has mass. so you are firing the weight with energy...

for instance if you check on ebay about the rail gun the us navy is testing. all it fires is a steel bolt yet when it hits its target it explodes like a bomb...the reason is the huge amount of energy the bolt is fired with hits a solid surface and transfers its energy.

its like the old catch out which weighs heavier a ton of feathers or a ton of steel...well obviously the answer is there is no difference...so .2 is .2 doesnt matter what its made of

now all thats from memory so you may need to do a whole web refresh as i am sure i missed a bit..

edit: who was the big engineering type here who had all this stuff off pat....was it rew or dex? honestly cant remember who but someone can explain it al lot better then i have

Michael-O'Neill

delete this comment

Michael-O'Neill

weeder wrote: »

although i knew you could get those (and yes in n0.2 if you look hard enough)

still not convinced this is airsoft related since the article states illegal firearm

journalists get paid to exaggerate

Hivemind187

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

i think you are falling for the same trap ....what you are transferring is the energy (and its mass), not the physical properties...

metal has a whole oooh and aaahhh about it. a bullet does its damage because its delivering the energy of the explosion in the shell. the reasons it is metal is that metal is the cheapest most efficient way of delivering that energy without disintegrating and it has mass. so you are firing the weight with energy...

for instance if you check on ebay about the rail gun the us navy is testing. all it fires is a steel bolt yet when it hits its target it explodes like a bomb...the reason is the huge amount of energy the bolt is fired with hits a solid surface and transfers its energy.

its like the old catch out which weighs heavier a ton of feathers or a ton of steel...well obviously the answer is there is no difference...so .2 is .2 doesnt matter what its made of

now all thats from memory so you may need to do a whole web refresh as i am sure i missed a bit..

edit: who was the big engineering type here who had all this stuff off pat....was it rew or dex? honestly cant remember who but someone can explain it al lot better then i have

agreed, but it does beg the question - "how much of that energy is delivered on impact?"

We know, for example, that a BB delivers a small ammount of its 1 joule of energy because of elastic properties (rebound effect) however a Paintball will deliver the entireity of its energy upon impact (usually) by liquid transfer i.e. the lack of rebound causes all the energy to dump into the target.

This is better shown by the specialised rounds design for shooting a single individual without the risk of over penetration. A steel round is hollowed and half filled with mercury. When fired the fluid (by force of gravity) is forced to the back of the chamber. Upon impact the fluid rushes forward causing the energy to "dump" into the target preventing over penetration.

With BB's, the plastic kind you will see an elastic effect as it transfers a portion of its energy before "bouncing" off the target. Aluminium BB's should have a similar effect in that the properties of metal are similarly, albeit a lot less, elastic.

Now this said, aluminium BB's will have no greater resistance to wind effects at the same weight as average plastic BB's nor will they be any more accurate. Moreover, aluminium bb's, by virtue of being more ridgid than the plastic will likely do damage to a standard hop (greater erosion over time) and they will likely cause greater pitting of the barrel (the point after the hop where imperfect settings cause collision when the round is forced down rather than rolled).

This however, is all opinion based on what you can see happening.

TheDoc

This conversation went on elsewhere, Metal BB's can go and ****e

I'm pretty sure a metal BB will hurt more, cause more risk to breaking eyewear etc, regardless of if its 1j or not.

The sheer fact that its only 1j, would suggest to me the metal BB farting out of the barel and onto the ground in front.

I personally would take no part in a game/site that allowed the use of anything other then BB pellets, unless there was extensive proof of its safe use.

And even using metal pellets, opens up a whole new kettle of fish, that the large amount of people whose dreams i crush in store by saying " no they cant fire the metal pellets" If my response was " yeah they can fire metal pellets"

I'm pretty sure wed be on a topic of " Do you remember when we played airsoft, you know, before it got banned"

I'd prefer that this board allowed the talk of +1j rifles, more then letting metal pellets being discussed....cause its the ONE defence we have that our equipment is not dangerous.

Imagine when asked what they fire we reply metal pellets, alot worse then saying a plastic BB.

AS far as the article goes, I think its well written. Airsoft is obviously in minds recently...after another article. But how many forget that thousands of Irish people travel to spain every summer, and most of the kids come back with pellet guns. The article doesnt once reference airsoft. This is more then likely a case of the boys coming home from holliers with pellet guns from abroad.

So maybe worrying mothers and public can **** off our backs and giving us ****....and maybe have a go at airports for letting this ****e through.

Media make DOC mad

kdouglas

While I dont have the time to write a full reply, suffice to say that I have a selection of rare types of BBs at home, including steel 0.87g BBs, they will fire, but the power and range is ridiculously low. Out of a 1 Joule AEG, they went about 30 feet and only had 0.5 Joule of energy through a chrono.

MacAonghusa

Blay wrote: »

That line pretty much distances airsoft from this article

I wouldn't be so sure. I know there are knuckle heads out there trying to fire ball bearings with AEGs.
If it looks like the real thing at all then airsoft is part of it.

Hivemind187

amazing I know but I'm about to agree with MacAonghasa (:p).

The fact is folks that this kit was very likely airsoft and that the reporter just made a balls-up and said they fire the "metal pellahs". It's called reporting after the fact or dealing in second hand information. It's pisspoor journalism but are any of you suprised?

When you read an article like this always look at the first three paragraphs. Beyond that the average reader is no longer paying attention (thank our caffiene fueled Murdoch-media news snippet culture for that one). As far as the majority of unitiated people are concered the following are true

1) Airsoft weapons [sic] will take your eye out!
2) A shot to the eye will kill you by going into the brain!
3) They fire metal pellets!
4) They can be converted to fire real ammunition!
5) They killed Mrs Miggins cat Percy!

... atheists eat babies and people from Kerry are all thick.

It's stupid but no matter what you do you will not change the mindset of people who read (and believe) things like that - especially when they are quick enough to spot a vested interest like us.

Arguing whether it has anything to do with airsoft is a waste of time. It has EVERYTHING to do with airsoft. Just as every gun seizure will have something to do with airsoft if the right journalist spins it the right way. Facts dont matter to the consumer, just easily digestable hysteria.

So instead of trying to decide whether this article "has anything to do with airsoft" treat it as if it des and decide - what can be done to put a stop to the behavior the article talks about?

TheDoc

Its so hard to say, how can we cast out such a large net, that we can guarantee everyone is going to behave properly. Its not going to happen. As was mentioned in a different thread, and ive noticed in my estate. Kids running round with toy guns from toy shops, or cap guns.

Its amazing that these same parents are probably the ones rining big joe and the likes. I'm of the personal opinion, after consideration, that there is not much you can do. A topic was held about going on tv, which concluded in a pretty much no, so you cant go out defeinding really.

I dont know how to phrase it correctly to be fair, but the general idea is, to distance ourselves from the non airsofters, who basically purchase airsoft, cheapo springers for intimidation tactics. It might sound mad or wrong or whatever, but we shouldnt go out on an all out public pr offensive, until something REALLY serious happens.

The people that really matter...authorities, wont be reading papers and going by that. They will have their own opinions, and I am sure, 100% sure, that they realise that the people causing these disturbances are not airsofters, just thugs and dopes.

Just as when someone attacks someone else with a hurley and beats them half to death, they dont go on a coupe to ban hurling...

I am even sure that if something governmental came into play, to registrate airsoft, that the players would be at the centre and it wouldnt be so detremental.

I cant say exactly what the solution is, because the article is vague, it may be referring to pellet guns brought home from abroad, we all know how easy you can get a foreign pellet gun through in a suitcase... and it is just after holiday time.

Obviously these incidents are being more heavily critiqued due to the recent articles and phone in shows relating to airsoft.

I cant say personally im worried, as i know alot of people are, but i cant see that we are in some sort of crisis. Although these incidents are happening, theyve happend for many o many of years. Pellet guns, for a long time, have been coming in from abroad, and kids and teens, have been shooting them at ech other.

I remember when i was 13 playing in a cousins garden with pellet guns we got abroad, shooting at each other, no eye protection, then going into the street and doing it, but no one thought we had proper glocks in fairness...

its jsut how times are slightly changing, and everyone seems a bit more fearful and frightened.

Many people know my own personal opinion on these sorta things, and ive stated clearly to individuals who have said the " want to change something help out" line, i genuinely dont want to help out with anything in an offical capactity...I just want to play.

MacAonghusa

Hivemind187 wrote: »

amazing I know but I'm about to agree with MacAonghasa (:p).

I think we've turned a corner in our relationship.

kevteljeur

Hivemind187 wrote: »

As far as the majority of unitiated people are concered the following are true

1) Airsoft weapons [sic] will take your eye out!
2) A shot to the eye will kill you by going into the brain!
3) They fire metal pellets!
4) They can be converted to fire real ammunition!
5) They killed Mrs Miggins cat Percy!

Depressingly, I've had a conversation with one or two friends where I've had these trotted out, and then more depressingly, had to refute them over and over.

No. 4 bothers me, since it's entirely impossible, but you know how it is, if it looks like a dog, and it smells like a dog... You know what I mean.


Mark my words, state-authorised retailers and state-authorised playing sites, and no-where in between shall an AEG be seen...


Edit: oh, and my point about metal bbs was not that they carry more energy (that's what one joule is about) but about the elastic properties of the bb and the redistribution of energy on impact; the reason why a 14J blob of paint doesn't kill you, and why shooting a hard object with a bb shatters it, but not your arse...

We could, and should, make a reference movie on this subject to link to, and maybe a few of them on related subjects.

Hivemind187

kevteljeur wrote: »

We could, and should, make a reference movie on this subject to link to, and maybe a few of them on related subjects.

Myself and Sean (extremetaz) along with a few others have been looking quite seriously at this for the past few months. We intend to put something together early in the ner year once we get through the current workload.

kevteljeur

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Myself and Sean (extremetaz) along with a few others have been looking quite seriously at this for the past few months. We intend to put something together early in the ner year once we get through the current workload.

Excellent. Of course, you are very busy and have 'real life' stuff to do too, but I'd love to help. Let me know (I can twist an arm and get professional help for it), PM me sometime and we can discuss it.

IRISH RAIL

Ill tell you what doesnt help
when we have a thread about bad journalism, and throw in the fact we want to distance ourselves from illegal firearms.

then we have an ad at the top of this page with buy air guns

the ads by google should be modified to suit

MacAonghusa

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Ill tell you what doesnt help
when we have a thread about bad journalism, and throw in the fact we want to distance ourselves from illegal firearms.

then we have an ad at the top of this page with buy air guns

the ads by google should be modified to suit

well spotted. I've gone google-ad-blind, don't even see them anymore,

Fallschirmjager

that can happen anywhere

kevteljeur

MacAonghusa wrote: »

well spotted. I've gone google-ad-blind, don't even see them anymore,

Actually, I literally don't see them at all. I thought I might have nuked the ads in my Hosts file, but apparently not. Odd. Small blessing.

Busta Hyman

i gotta say that ANYONE taking one of these out in public is seirously stupid. your talking about 1 phonecall and it becomes "suicide by cop"


i suppose its natural selection at work

iceage

Please not that again.....I jumped all over a certain individual for a sweeping comment like that, he hasn't forgiven me for it and it was a slip of the tongue on his behalf which he freely admits

Natural selection, has nothing to do with stupidity. certain world leaders are proof of that. Off topic rant, Iceage holds out slapping hand to Mods.

Also sorry Busta, am grumpy ole bastardo! Welcome to the Airsoft Forums!!

Real Steyr Dave

*chuckling and ignoring any brewing controversy*

heh heh... Good one Falls
:P

Busta Hyman

fair enough but certain world leaders should be dead by natural selection by rights. but really it isnt all georges fault he was dropped on his head at birth.


do you disagree with my "suicide by cop" comment

Real Steyr Dave

Busta Hyman wrote: »

fair enough but certain world leaders should be dead by natural selection by rights. but really it isnt all georges fault he was dropped on his head at birth.

I wouldn't turn my back on Dick Cheney man, he shot a guy! Thought he was a deer my arse....:P