Double Speeding Fine

elbono

I just got a second speeding fine in the post today for going 74kmh in a 60 zone on the Naas dual carriageway! The two offenses are exactly a week apart and both 3 months ago. Is there anyway of contesting this on the grounds that if I had received the first fine I would of slowed down and respected the limit from then on.

That stretch of road is so bad for signage, I had to really search for the speed sign, it actually changes to 80kmh on another section of the same road and I wasn't sure what the limit was until now.

Also I've heard that if the Garda was using a hand held radar-gun without a tri-pod then the reading can be contested because of the inability to accurately read the speed when the gun is slightly moving, is this true?

It's so annoying, i will have 6 points now if this goes through (the first one was for making a turn that is illegal for only 2 hours in the morning, I was trying to get to my house which is just down the road, the Garda was hiding [actually hiding like a child] behind a tree and popped out when he saw me)

shoegirl

couldn't you have learned your lesson after the first pair of penalty points just like most other folk?

You seem to have an attitude that you should get away with it "because the garda was hiding" or that you might have learned your lesson sooner after getting the penalty notice.

My mother, who drives around at about 25 mph, got a fine a couple of weeks ago dating from May or early June, so I think 2 to 3 months is the norm for certain kinds of fixed cameras. Reality is that the speed limit applies whether there is a camera there or not and it applies to you too!

If you think I'm being sanctimonious, I'm not. I have 2 points myself for breaking a red light. The fact that the garda was also out of my view didn't make it ok for me to break the law. The laws apply to us equally.

Guy:Incognito

elbono wrote: »

(the first one was for making a turn that is illegal for only 2 hours in the morning, I was trying to get to my house which is just down the road, the Garda was hiding [actually hiding like a child] behind a tree and popped out when he saw me)

Your giving out about a no right turn that is specifically in place for the reason you were caught? These things are there to stop people talking shortcuts through housing estates at busy times.

L1011

"I would have slowed down if you told me" is no grounds for getting off the second one - unless they didn't tell you - in so far as the signs weren't there or were obscured. Wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting off in this case.

chris85

you know the area you sped in was a 60kmph area albeit there may be bad signage. I know the naas dual carraige way and i dont find the entire stretch is badly signed at all for speed limits.

You broke the speed limit twice, take the points on the chin and also dont forget to let your insurance company know as your insurance may be void if you dont let them know, i am sure there will be a loading on your premium for 6 points.

Wishbone Ash

elbono wrote: »

The two offenses are exactly a week apart and both 3 months ago

I can't see what case you would have as they have up to 6 months from the date of the offence to notify you.

elbono

Lads, there's no need to be so harsh and high and mighty. I generally obey speed limits to the letter, everyone has slip ups and don't notice the needle going too high until it's too late. I was only wondering if there were grounds to have the second fine stricken off due to the time frames of the offenses.

I NEVER said I shouldn't have been fined for speeding, I am only looking to not have 6 points and a 160euro fine for doing basically the same thing twice.

It's easy to point fingers and say "now now", all I was looking for was advice not a reminder that I did wrong. Only chris85 seems to have replied with anything constructive so thanks chris, I know what you mean about the signage being generally alright but I was just feeling sorry for myself and pointing out that it's not as clear as it could be.

Anyone else have any helpful insight? Thanks in advance.

Edit: I didn't see Ashes reply until I posted, thanks for the info

Guy:Incognito

elbono wrote: »

I NEVER said I shouldn't have been fined for speeding, I am only looking to not have 6 points and a 160euro fine for doing basically the same thing twice.
.

Your looking for a volume discount for law breaking?

Wishbone Ash

elbono wrote: »

I was only wondering if there were grounds to have the second fine stricken off due to the time frames of the offenses

See my previous post.

EDIT: just saw your edit.

L1011

You've got all the 'helpful advice' there can be - there is no way you'll get off or get a 'reduction' for that scenario. There can't be any further advice to that end, because its impossible.

geoff29

well, I reckon that's tough alright. Out here N11 way, the speed limit constantly changes from 60 to 80 depending where you are - for absolutely no apparent reason other than whoever was marking the road was bored. I haven't been caught yet but I reckon someday I will get 2 letters like you - and it will be a genuine mistake on my part as opposed to a "yes! look at me I am sooooo fast in my old Volvo 940 - I think I'm Michael Schumacher I do!" way..!

People are going to cause accidents staring at their speedo at 60 km/h. It's all a little cynical. 14 km/h = ~8 mph. Getting done for 8 mph, and I know people getting done for less.

On the plus side, out my way, the cops are fairly easy on the folks and will drive along above the speed limit without enforcing the law on others who are driving at the same pace. One time though, with a cop behind me, I stuck to the (ridiculously low) speed limit - until he started flashing his normal lights at me! So, I sped up and he seemed happier about that!

If it was me, I'd trot along to the local Garda station and ask for some advice. But do so in a friendly manner - in a I'm looking for advice way as opposed to I'm right and you're wrong way! Can't hurt.

Anan1

geoff29 wrote: »

One time though, with a cop behind me, I stuck to the (ridiculously low) speed limit - until he started flashing his normal lights at me! So, I sped up and he seemed happier about that!

Was that on the N11??

elbono

Thanks Geoff, that's exactly the way I feel too, the road has three lanes and at 7.30 in the morning when no one was about, it's just a bit silly really. The Garda should have better things to do, like catching some of the people I see every morning going 140kmh in a 100kmh zone.

Ah well, it looks like there's no hope for a simple solution. If you see someone driving at 10kmh below the speed limit on the Naas road every morning from now on be sure to give me a wave.

I.S.T.

elbono wrote: »

That stretch of road is so bad for signage, I had to really search for the speed sign, it actually changes to 80kmh on another section of the same road and I wasn't sure what the limit was until now.

If you think the signage is not clear enough and you were unsure of the speed limit then go up and take photos of the area. Use these to contest the fine and points. Some people make out you are a criminal for contesting a fine but if the council have not properly signposted the speed limits then you have a right to contest it. If the shoe was on the other foot and you hadn't properly licenced/taxed/insureed/nct'd the car they would have no problem taking a case against you.

I.S.T.

elbono wrote: »

Lads, there's no need to be so harsh and high and mighty

It's happens all the time on this board. I think some people sit around all day looking at the forum hitting refresh waiting for a chance to get on their high horse. :rolleyes:

daRobot

Elbono,

You´d probably get a more reasoned response on the forum on octane.ie as this place has been destroyed from high horse esque "you were breaking the law" spouters.

Seriously, I accept that a forum is going to get a certain segment of society that is up it´s own arse but this one takes the biscuit.

L1011

Someone come on basically looking for a bulk discount on fines because he thinks its someone elses job to warn him (thats what the signs are for - if they aren't there, as has been said, challenge this. If they are, tough) and people think that him being told that its not their job is "high horse"-ish?

There's something seriously wrong with this country when its seen to be OK to break laws assuming you get away with (unless they're politicians you don't like), seen to be a bad thing when people get caught (unless they're politicians you don't like), and so on.

Put simply - it isn't the role of the Gardai to warn you to slow down. Even under ideal circumstances its unlikely a fixed penalty notice will arrive within a week of the incident - the time period the OP mentioned. This isn't unfair, or unjust in any way. That the OP repeated an offense because he hadn't got the fixed penalty notice is nobody else's fault but his own, and it in no way a valid excuse to attempt to escape the punishment. By all means, if there is a real loophole - incorrect signage so you could not know the speed limit, or a failing on how the detection was done, do it. But "I didn't get a warning, let me off" isn't an excuse.

I think nearly everyone on here who does any serious mileage will have been caught speeding at some point in time - it happens. Even the most qualified driver on here (in terms of licenses) got blipped a few months back if I remember correctly. To be on a high horse about speeding you'd need to never have done it, the chances of which are, honestly, nil. But this isn't an issue where that comes in to play.

astraboy

Glad to see the high horses are out in force as per usual. And to think they are such a rare breed on other websites, the high and mighty folk appear to congregate on boards!:rolleyes:

Perhaps if users like MYOB(mind your own business) kept to their names and did'nt enjoy poking other users about a lapse in judgment, the board would be a far better place. No wonder the regular(more useful and informative) posters rarely come on here any more.

OP, if you wish to contest on the grounds of poor signage, it would be a pretty good defence. If the limit is not clearly posted, how is one to know?

And the fact a road user is not quickly informed of their offence, and given warning to change their behavior before it happens again, is a disgrace. Another reason why speed cameras are all about money, and not altering driver behavior. At least if a cop stops you, you know there and then you have a fine etc, and can slow down or be more aware. Another argument for another thread however.

Bluetonic

elbono wrote: »

the first one was for making a turn that is illegal for only 2 hours in the morning, I was trying to get to my house which is just down the road, the Garda was hiding [actually hiding like a child] behind a tree and popped out when he saw me

Is there a smiley to shed a tear?

....just down the road.... poor you.

astraboy

Bluetonic wrote: »

Is there a smiley to shed a tear?

....just down the road.... poor you.

High horse: Exhibit A above.:rolleyes:

Bobo78

astraboy wrote: »

Glad to see the high horses are out in force as per usual. And to think they are such a rare breed on other websites, the high and mighty folk appear to congregate on boards!:rolleyes:

Perhaps if users like MYOB(mind your own business) kept to their names and did'nt enjoy poking other users about a lapse in judgment, the board would be a far better place. No wonder the regular(more useful and informative) posters rarely come on here any more.

OP, if you wish to contest on the grounds of poor signage, it would be a pretty good defence. If the limit is not clearly posted, how is one to know?

And the fact a road user is not quickly informed of their offence, and given warning to change their behavior before it happens again, is a disgrace. Another reason why speed cameras are all about money, and not altering driver behavior. At least if a cop stops you, you know there and then you have a fine etc, and can slow down or be more aware. Another argument for another thread however.

+1

L1011

astraboy wrote: »

Glad to see the high horses are out in force as per usual. And to think they are such a rare breed on other websites, the high and mighty folk appear to congregate on boards!:rolleyes:

Thank you for proving the entire point of my post...

fletch

The OP has a very valid point I think....penalty points should be sent out the very same day/as soon as is practicably possible, after the offence has occurred. This way people can relate to the wrong doing and learn from their mistake. Sending out the penalty points notice X months after the offence is ridiculous, most likely you are not going to even remember "speeding".

daveharnett

MYOB wrote: »

it isn't the role of the Gardai to warn you to slow down.

I disagree with this statement. I accept the point that the OP has done wrong, and some form of punishment might not be out of order. However, IMO, the primary role of the justice system is not to punish criminals, it is to prevent crime. These are not the same thing.

The OP said that he was not aware of the speed limit in the area in question. If the trap which originally caught him had pulled him over, made him aware of the speed limit, and advised him that a ticket would be in the post, they would have been much more effective at preventing him from reoffending.

Zube

daveharnett wrote: »

If the trap which originally caught him had pulled him over, made him aware of the speed limit, and advised him that a ticket would be in the post, they would have been much more effective at preventing him from reoffending.

I doubt it. Enforcement levels are too low, getting caught is a sort of reverse lottery. Everyone speeds, and you have to be really unlucky (or stupid) to get caught. To get caught twice like that is particularly annoying.

Unfortunately, that's the system, and I don't think appealing will help.

astraboy

MYOB wrote: »

Thank you for proving the entire point of my post...

I believe you proved mine several posts ago.:rolleyes::D Its not about people trying to break the law, its about questioning if the law is enforced correctly, or even if the law is correct in the first place. People on here seem so adverse to actually questioning weather the speed limits on the roads are largely correct. Instead its the usual claptrap "its the law" so we must blindly accept it.

cashmni1

OP - If the sinage was bad, take pics and persue. If not, take points on the chin.
I must say, though, I was slightly annoyed when reading the first few responces to your story.
FFS, The OP was only telling his story and got a load of abuse for "breaking the law" Boo Woo.
I break the law every day (in some shape or form), and most readers/drivers on here do too. You are lying to yourself if you think you NEVER speed.
I am not boasting about breaking the law, just being realistic and truthful.
Are you all going to tell me that you are all doing exactly 50kph when entering said zone from a higher limit....I would doubt it.
I don't try to break the law, but it is very difficult to keep the EXACT limit all the time. I travel on a dual carrage way on th eway home and usually cruise @ 65 to 70 mph, along with all the other traffic. (Including cop cars.)
I am not condoning the breaking of the law, in any way, but get real.
The OP only asked if there was a way out of a hefty fine and all that goes with it.

By the way, when points came out first, one lady in Dublin got 12 points before she got her first peanlty notice. I think she was turning incorrectly at a junction every day but didn't know about it because she didn't see the sinage. So, the OP has a vaild question.

Mylow

elbono wrote: »

Also I've heard that if the Garda was using a hand held radar-gun without a tri-pod then the reading can be contested because of the inability to accurately read the speed when the gun is slightly moving, is this true?

It's true (with or without tripod), however I don't see you having much chance of getting away with it in court. In UK Police operators cannot hand hold camera from drivers seat due to movement of car caused by passing traffic. Maybe Garda have much more stable cars :-)
See here and here. There is one guy in UK, Dr Clark who will act as a professional witness. He is expert in laser technology, when people submit case along with there professional witness (Dr Clark) the crown prosecution service have been known to drop the case rather than go to court and lose.

Another thing they do in UK is to let local residents borrow a Speed Gun from the local council and then report anyone speeding, they cant be prosecuted, but it does flag them for attention by local police. My Ex is co-ordinator for one of the local councils in UK for this. Must see if I can borrow laser gun and see if I get the 'slip' affect mentioned/demonstrated in the video.

Also a lot of Sat Nav systems now allow you to log your journeys, speed/distance etc. Handy for the expenses etc, it may also be handy to double check against a speeding ticket.

L1011

astraboy wrote: »

I believe you proved mine several posts ago.:rolleyes::D Its not about people trying to break the law, its about questioning if the law is enforced correctly, or even if the law is correct in the first place. People on here seem so adverse to actually questioning weather the speed limits on the roads are largely correct. Instead its the usual claptrap "its the law" so we must blindly accept it.

Did my posts say that at all? No. Did you read them or did you just skim them and bash your keyboard to put out the standard 'high horse :rolleyes:' response we get from certain parties any time something contrary to their views is said?

kikel

cashmni1 wrote: »

I break the law every day (in some shape or form), and most readers/drivers on here do too. You are lying to yourself if you think you NEVER speed.
I am not boasting about breaking the law, just being realistic and truthful.
Are you all going to tell me that you are all doing exactly 50kph when entering said zone from a higher limit....I would doubt it.
I don't try to break the law, but it is very difficult to keep the EXACT limit all the time. I travel on a dual carrage way on th eway home and usually cruise @ 65 to 70 mph, along with all the other traffic. (Including cop cars.)
I am not condoning the breaking of the law, in any way, but get real.

TOTALLY agree with this point. My sister gives me crap for travelling a few MPH over the speed limit. I love telling her that every time she drives her car she is breaking the law by not having a fully qualified driver with her. That shuts the b%$"£H up.
Also the people that hog the fast lane. Use their fog lights incorrectly, don't indicate at junctions. Cashmn1 is right. Most people break the law every time they drive.

Omcd

Here's a suggestion (not for OP unfortunately but for the authorities in this age of new technology) : what if every car had to have, as well as a human readable registration plate, an electronic readable radio registration tag - like a toll tag except it sends out the car reg (like an aircraft transponder), such that if you are caught speeding, a signal could be sent to it instantly for it to beep (like a toll tag) so that you know immediately you've been done, rather than having to watch the post nerviously for 6 - 9 months after you realise you've just passed a speed detector van at 55/56 km in a 50km (ahem.. , ah but wait - I'm human after all:cool: ) on a dual carrageway, or you get that nasty surprise (or string of such) for something dating back 6 months that you didnt even realise you'd done.

I remember reading about that lady who got 12 points at the start of the penalty points. If I remember rightly she got them from one of those fixed grey boxes on a slip road onto a dual carraigeway cos she thought the limit on the slip road was 50mph but it was actually 40mph or something like that, I think they were clocked up on consecutive commutes over only a few days. I wonder though why she never saw the thing flashing at her as she passed it each day.......

astraboy

MYOB wrote: »

Did my posts say that at all? No. Did you read them or did you just skim them and bash your keyboard to put out the standard 'high horse :rolleyes:' response we get from certain parties any time something contrary to their views is said?

I've no issue with contrary views to my own, I do however have issues with people coming on here, asking a simple question, and getting 10 posts of "you should'nt have been speeding" and others telling him what a bold little boy he was. If you don't think there are a ridiculous number of high horses on this forum, just go back over any number of the speeding threads on here. You swear some of the people were never so much as .01Kph over the limit from their attitudes. Attitudes, that have simply wrecked this forum. A decent motoring forum should be both informative and be frequented by those with a genuine love of cars. 'Motors' sees these people less and less, which is a shame.

peasant

Constantly giving out about "high horses" doesn't exactly improve the quality or motoring related content of this forum either, now does it ?

D_murph

astraboy wrote: »

I've no issue with contrary views to my own, I do however have issues with people coming on here, asking a simple question, and getting 10 posts of "you should'nt have been speeding" and others telling him what a bold little boy he was. If you don't think there are a ridiculous number of high horses on this forum, just go back over any number of the speeding threads on here. You swear some of the people were never so much as .01Kph over the limit from their attitudes. Attitudes, that have simply wrecked this forum. A decent motoring forum should be both informative and be frequented by those with a genuine love of cars. 'Motors' sees these people less and less, which is a shame.

X2^ :rolleyes:

someone comes on here to ask a question about speeding and gets hammered by the usual suspects. it gets boring pretty quickly :rolleyes: and of course these posters dont speed at all themselves

to the OP, you were unlucky that you got hit twice in one week but think how much worse it could have been. due to the haphazard way you were notified (3 months later :rolleyes:) you could have ended up like that woman that got the 12 points without even knowing it :eek:

kikel wrote:

My sister gives me crap for travelling a few MPH over the speed limit. I love telling her that every time she drives her car she is breaking the law by not having a fully qualified driver with her. That shuts the b%$"£H up.
Also the people that hog the fast lane. Use their fog lights incorrectly, don't indicate at junctions. Cashmn1 is right. Most people break the law every time they drive.

@ highlighted portion

have to agree with you on the rest also. fast lane hogs have no excuse end especially when theres no cars in the left lane :mad: but that has been done to death on here.

in the last few days ive seen unbelievable amounts of drivers that cant be bothered to indicate at junctions etc here also and dont get me started at the dangerous buggers that pull out in front of you at the last second at junctions also like rabbits :eek:. these are the drivers that pose the most danger of causing an accident. not someone going slightly over the limit on a major road but theres no laser speed guns for detecting that i suppose :rolleyes:

peasant

topic, oh topic ...where art thou ?

Esel

kikel wrote: »

Also the people that hog the fast lane.

D_murph wrote: »

fast lane hogs have no excuse end especially when theres no cars in the left lane

Hi Ho, Silver! :pac:

D_murph

esel wrote: »

Hi Ho, Silver! :pac:

i drive a car, not ride a horse

or a high one either :P

Esel

^ Whoosh.

Wossack

well fingers crossed OP that there's not another one in the post tomorrow

kikel

esel wrote: »

Hi Ho, Silver! :pac:

More High horse boards rubbish. Somebody uses the wrong term\phrase and somebody just feels the need to point it out. Get over it. Many people call it the fast lane even if it is technically called the overtaking lane. Ya knew what i meant. I haven't checked my spelling and grammer. Any problems for you there?

Esel

^ Double whoosh! :D

Mr. Presentable

IrishSpeedTraps wrote: »

It's happens all the time on this board. I think some people sit around all day looking at the forum hitting refresh waiting for a chance to get on their high horse. :rolleyes:

Please. If we all had horses there'd be no problem

D_murph

kikel wrote: »

More High horse boards rubbish.

X2^

Somebody uses the wrong term\phrase and somebody just feels the need to point it out. Get over it. Many people call it the fast lane even if it is technically called the overtaking lane. Ya knew what i meant.

ah but that wouldnt be PC now would it :rolleyes:?

TBH i think ill call it the fast lane in future just cos it pi$$es them off :P

I haven't checked my spelling and grammer. Any problems for you there?

dunno man, i was able to understand you just fine though

Mr. Presentable

astraboy wrote: »

I've no issue with contrary views to my own, I do however have issues with people coming on here, asking a simple question, and getting 10 posts of "you should'nt have been speeding" and others telling him what a bold little boy he was. If you don't think there are a ridiculous number of high horses on this forum, just go back over any number of the speeding threads on here. You swear some of the people were never so much as .01Kph over the limit from their attitudes. Attitudes, that have simply wrecked this forum. A decent motoring forum should be both informative and be frequented by those with a genuine love of cars. 'Motors' sees these people less and less, which is a shame.

If it's so terrible why do you live here? And what's with the "high horses" schtick - over and over like a broken record.

The solution for all drivers who get the occasional points is to drive as though you are on 10.

OP, You cannot claim ignorance as a defence - you should not have to be pulled over to be advised of the speed limit. If, however, the signage is missing, why, then you have no way to know and can contest!

Esel

^post 43^ Hat-trick whoosh! :D:D Is it ever going to stop?

D_murph

esel wrote: »

^post 43^ Hat-trick whoosh! :D:D Is it ever going to stop?

maybe when you grow up

fast lane FTW

brianomurphy

I feel your pain, just got points in the post today, offence was on 13th July, so i receive it 3 months later, some jip that is.

Was doing 84kph in a 60kph zone. No real excuses I guess.

Thing is though, there's a huge discrepancy on it. It says M1 Santry, if it's the M1 surely on a motorway the speed limit would be 110?

Anyone drive there regularly and know anything about speed-checks and limits, as I'm rarely out that way?

kikel

brianomurphy wrote: »

I feel your pain, just got points in the post today, offence was on 13th July, so i receive it 3 months later, some jip that is.

Was doing 84kph in a 60kph zone. No real excuses I guess.

Thing is though, there's a huge discrepancy on it. It says M1 Santry, if it's the M1 surely on a motorway the speed limit would be 110?

Anyone drive there regularly and know anything about speed-checks and limits, as I'm rarely out that way?

Closer to town the speed limit is lower that 120Kph. 60Kph sounds right.

L1011

The M1 has 60, 80 and 120 sections on it - 80 at the airport merge, 60 on the airport spur - and I think 60 at the tunnel, e.g. Santry. 120 from airport to the mesh with the N1 HQDC at Ballymascanlon.

ardmacha

It says M1 Santry, if it's the M1 surely on a motorway the speed limit would be 110?

Since no road in the ROI has a speed limit of 110, it could be that you are not paying attention to limits in general.

brianomurphy

ardmacha wrote: »

Since no road in the ROI has a speed limit of 110, it could be that you are not paying attention to limits in general.

Amazing the way you get more replies to typos.

btw. thanks to MYOB and kikel