Going pro

dav nagle

I want to rent a commercial premises, I also want that premises to look nice, have space and feel comfortable. In January I have plans to move to a premises. I have been looking around at properties and here is the story. For €850 a month you will get a small room, not big enough for drums but a commercial premises all the same. For €1200 you will get a studio big enough for drums and a good bit out of town. For €1500 a month you will get a nice place. €1500 a month is a big price for any business man going solo. Should I team up with another engineer and split the rent? hence taking half the financial stress off me. The other bonus is that two heads are better than one and with 2 people out there canvassing, the chances are we will get more business and a better reputation quicker. The last thing I want is to be in a position where I take a bank over draft out for €10,000 and spend a further €7,500 on rent for the first few months and then go bust!!! Going bust!!! What should I do?

teamdresch

Alright.
This is feck all help to you in a way, but me personally.. I'd be VERY careful about taking that kind of leap at the moment.
Make yourself a list of pros and cons - your current situation vs. a prospective move.

Do the figures too, mate.
Assuming rent of 1500, you'd be looking at electricity, heating, insurance and tea and biccies. At a guess, that'll take you up towards 2000 a month.
Assuming you charge 200 quid a day for the room, you'll need to book 10 days a month before you can even start paying yourself.
Work out a daily rate, then your bills and the number of days you can (very conservatively) expect to fill per month. Then add what you'll need to pay yourself into the equation.
It can add up to quite a few days minimum per month.

Any of the lads I know running succesful studios had a solid track record, name and client list before they started. Either that or they were able to use a premises rent free (or in/on their own property). It's very difficult at the start no matter who you are.
Factor that into your calculations.
The only way to avoid disaster is to plan for everything.
Be as sure as possible that you can make it work!

dav nagle

teamdresch wrote: »

Alright.
This is feck all help to you in a way, but me personally.. I'd be VERY careful about taking that kind of leap at the moment.
Make yourself a list of pros and cons - your current situation vs. a prospective move.

Do the figures too, mate.
Assuming rent of 1500, you'd be looking at electricity, heating, insurance and tea and biccies. At a guess, that'll take you up towards 2000 a month.
Assuming you charge 200 quid a day for the room, you'll need to book 10 days a month before you can even start paying yourself.
Work out a daily rate, then your bills and the number of days you can (very conservatively) expect to fill per month. Then add what you'll need to pay yourself into the equation.
It can add up to quite a few days minimum per month.

Any of the lads I know running succesful studios had a solid track record, name and client list before they started. Either that or they were able to use a premises rent free (or in/on their own property). It's very difficult at the start no matter who you are.
Factor that into your calculations.
The only way to avoid disaster is to plan for everything.
Be as sure as possible that you can make it work!

Thanks for the reply.

Lucky for me I have bread and butter money to pay the rent if I share with a partner. I have already received a PM from a prominent member of boards who is thinking along the same lines. For the €1500 my phone bills electricity is all included so things wont go any higher at the end of the month. See, what we are talking about here is making a giant step or a leap of faith with a business plan to back it, and after talking to many professionals they all concur that once you have bills to pay you will work hard in order to get the clients and work in the door. Guys and gals want to come to a proper studio and will pay for it if they like what they see and hear. I know another guy in a solid job and deep down he itching to record full time. Another factor here is having a niche in the market or lets say another angle, I have that too. Although not a proven success my bread and butter will keep me afloat. I am sick of being at home, I need to smell the reality of working round the clock to pay my bills. I think it would develop my business skills and character greatly. I take your points on board 100% but at some stage you have to try.

teamdresch

Yeah, absolutely.
I'm not saying don't do it, just make sure you do it right.

Me, I'm freelance 'till I die

dav nagle

teamdresch wrote: »

Yeah, absolutely.
I'm not saying don't do it, just make sure you do it right.

Me, I'm freelance 'till I die

I just want to build a studio and rot in it till I die!:rolleyes:

yeah, id be well weary of this...if you're set up as a proper business would there not then be tax issues and stuff...And with the way the industry's going, as well as the fact that all these colleges are pumping out more engineers by the day, as well as the whole thing about any young band could pretty much pay the same as one day of recording with yourself to get an mbox and try their own hand at it..I dunno..Its something ive considered myself too, but there's no way in hell id pay e1500 a month for a place until i was sure it'd be viable..all it takes is a couple of bad months and you're 2 grand in the red..if you go ahead with it, best of luck though..

unclebill98

Baby steps.....?

Welease

Would it not be possible to initially branch out by renting existing studio space (current studios or college's) when you have customers? i.e. Speak to existing studios, and come to an arrangement on maybe booking free days or using college's at the weekends etc.

That way you can build a rep. before taking on ongoing infrastructure commitments.

Savman

Oh, this could end in tears. With such a huge step, songs and studios gives way to business and bills.

Assessing it from a purely commercial perspective, you already have quite stiff competition so you're entering into a crowded market where supply is greater than demand. Personally I think it will cause you more hardship than it's worth.

The amount of capital up front is likely to be massive, such that it would take ages to recoup, if it ever did make money at all. Sorry to say, but more startup businesses fail and do so spectacularly. Reason are tenfold but usually because their eyes are bigger than their bank accounts, and with music related stuff especially, you end up with stuff you want as opposed to stuff you need.

But if you're determined to try, nothing anyone can say will change your mind so just do the figures, do the research and go for it. Just educate yourself about the consequences, it could end up being a high price to pay just to get to feel like a studio engineer every morning.

So consider me in the 'No' camp. :pac:

dav nagle

Thanks for the feedback lads

studiorat

teamdresch wrote: »

Do the figures too, mate.
Assuming rent of 1500, you'd be looking at electricity, heating, insurance and tea and biccies. At a guess, that'll take you up towards 2000 a month.
Assuming you charge 200 quid a day for the room,

DON'T charge €200 a day for studio and Engineer. A plumber's €80 an hour for gods sake!
You supply a good service and already carry pretty serious equipment, not to mention your talents as a musician etc. So don't under sell your self. €200 maybe a mates rate or if you get a bunch of days or the room on it's own.

€300 a day is only 6 and a half working days a month.

dav nagle

studiorat wrote: »

DON'T charge €200 a day for studio and Engineer. A plumber's €80 an hour for gods sake!
You supply a good service and already carry pretty serious equipment, not to mention your talents as a musician etc. So don't under sell your self. €200 maybe a mates rate or if you get a bunch of days or the room on it's own.

€300 a day is only 6 and a half working days a month.

I will be charging €50 an hour I have no idea where €200 a day came from I mentioned earlier in the post I have bread and butter money coming in, I have a serious business plan. I have been working for 4 months with DEB on it with mentoring. I wont be just recording from my studio.

Neurojazz

Other stuff to look at... fire regulations, business insurance, public liability insurance etc..

Also you mention a partner - this person would be taking a cut from profits also and probably create an interesting tax situation (if everything is above board and legitimate)

I can appreciate the frustation felt by yourself at wanting to take this step... it's always worth considering other options for further out of dublin for residential studios etc... The dilemma is a nightmare! - i hope the partner involved also does your studio justice!

dav nagle

Neurojazz wrote: »

Other stuff to look at... fire regulations, business insurance, public liability insurance etc..

Also you mention a partner - this person would be taking a cut from profits also and probably create an interesting tax situation (if everything is above board and legitimate)

I can appreciate the frustation felt by yourself at wanting to take this step... it's always worth considering other options for further out of dublin for residential studios etc... The dilemma is a nightmare! - i hope the partner involved also does your studio justice!

Its just an idea. Since posting this thread I have been in touch with a studio owner about creating a studio B or C within their studio A. I am putting the feelers out there.

PaulBrewer

I was in a similar situation quite a while ago. - Apart from the pure practicalities of making a business work (and certainly Euro 50 per hour is towards the higher end of Music recording pricing) - an important part of the project is you want to do it and are prepared to take the risks.

Success in the Music Biz has always been built on such thinking.

Years ago a very successful businessman advised me -

"Double your expected costs and half your expected profits - if it still makes sense ............ go ahead"

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I was in a similar situation quite a while ago. - Apart from the pure practicalities of making a business work (and certainly Euro 50 per hour is towards the higher end of Music recording pricing) - an important part of the project is you want to do it and are prepared to take the risks.

Success in the Music has always been built on such thinking.

Years ago a very successful businessman advised me -

"Double your expected costs and half your expected profits - if it still makes sense ............ go ahead"

I want to:)

QuadLeo

studiorat wrote: »

DON'T charge €200 a day for studio and Engineer. A plumber's €80 an hour for gods sake!
You supply a good service and already carry pretty serious equipment, not to mention your talents as a musician etc. So don't under sell your self. €200 maybe a mates rate or if you get a bunch of days or the room on it's own.

€300 a day is only 6 and a half working days a month.

It's already hard enough to get bands in. From my experience the lower the price the more interest you get. 200 per 10 hour day is the price I settled with after two years. Bands seem to go for it. It's great to get 5 sessions a week at this rate than 2 sessions at a higher rate. I think it's easier to get 10 days per month at 200 than 5 days at 300. Based on my experience anyway. I know it's a lot less than the service is worth but it's all about being competitive. I know of quality studios just outside Dublin charging 100 per day all the time. This is the sort of thing that you need to compete with. As well as many people buying mbox and m-audio stuff, not to mention garage band. I know there is no comparison in quality but a lot of people are recording at home. That's my opinion anyway. OP be prepared to keep your rates low. Advertise well and spread the word. Keep your regular customers. And fair play for having the balls to enter into a business as difficult as this. Although I don't doubt that it will pay off after a year or two. It would be ideal if you had two years capital upfront but not always practical.

Best of luck

dav nagle

QuadLeo wrote: »

It's already hard enough to get bands in. From my experience the lower the price the more interest you get. 200 per 10 hour day is the price I settled with after two years. Bands seem to go for it. It's great to get 5 sessions a week at this rate than 2 sessions at a higher rate. I think it's easier to get 10 days per month at 200 than 5 days at 300. Based on my experience anyway. I know it's a lot less than the service is worth but it's all about being competitive. I know of quality studios just outside Dublin charging 100 per day all the time. This is the sort of thing that you need to compete with. As well as many people buying mbox and m-audio stuff, not to mention garage band. I know there is no comparison in quality but a lot of people are recording at home. That's my opinion anyway. OP be prepared to keep your rates low. Advertise well and spread the word. Keep your regular customers. And fair play for having the balls to enter into a business as difficult as this. Although I don't doubt that it will pay off after a year or two. It would be ideal if you had two years capital upfront but not always practical.

Best of luck

First off nice post and thankyou for the moral support. I am hoping to have nearly a years rent up front before I begin. I will charge certain songwriters and groups a very reasonable fee and I will charge other types of recordings €50 per hour. I will be teaching music from my studio to keep the cash flow coming in so I don't sink. I have a very successful guitar school which I have been proudly running for the last 6 years and yes I have been paying tax. Thanks again for the positivity, it helps me focus along with the more cautious posters, it all helps. I my also add that my lean months are july and august but 6 months of hard promotion should get me plenty of bookings for those months. Lets hope my grant comes through in 2 weeks.

TelePaul

Have you made a cash-flow forecast yet? If you need an overdraft, a detailed business plan would help too - I'd consider it essential. I can PM you some details on both of these if it'd help. Also, consider the legal implications of going into business with someone.

white_falcon

I would advise you to read Screw it Lets do It by Richard Branson - has some seriously fantastic business stuff in it and you'd read the whole thing in about 2-3 hrs....I seriously can't advise you to read it enough!

studiorat

white_falcon wrote: »

I would advise you to read Screw it Lets do It by Richard Branson - has some seriously fantastic business stuff in it and you'd read the whole thing in about 2-3 hrs....I seriously can't advise you to read it enough!

Read a few pages from it yesterday as it happens. He ended up in clink for running a few van loads of his own product through customs and then selling them back in the UK when he had already claimed the VAT on them. £15,000 a van load. Screw it... And then he got caught:D

Just about the price though. If you ask for €200 a day you might get it, if you ask for more you might get it too. It's easier to drop the price then put it up.

I tell people we are more expensive than some but I tell them we are much better than them too. I'll quote the card rate and tell them if they run over budget we'll take care of them. No one leaves unsatisfied with the product, that's why it's more expensive.

If people start dropping prices to compete with other studios the whole shmozzle will fall through the floor.

jtsuited

hey dav, good luck with this.

I'm in a sorta (although far less stressful) similar situation at the moment. Looking for a new place with the missus, and we've found a few nice places with no neighbours, nice big rooms, etc.
so I'll probably end up slowly building a monstrosity of a studio.

It's a big risk your taking here, and as someone who used to gamble to put myself through college (for some of the time), I'm wondering if you've really worked out the figures, and the probability of you staying somewhat in profit.

You really want this to be a significantly +EV move, or else you're in a big load of sh1t.

Anywho, best of luck.

teamdresch

You mention above that you're talking about possibly putting together a B/C room in another studio.
I think that this, or a similar half-way house might be a good way to start.
Test the waters before you go the whole hog and set up a larger facility of your own.
Maybe track in larger studios but continue to mix at home for a time and see how that works out for you.

dav nagle

Good posts,


This is a point in my life which I have been looking forward to for 6 years. As someone who has been self employed for those 6 years I know how to make money by myself. I am single and have no baggage mentally or physically. I have a 62 page business plan bounded and approved by professional bankers and investors. I have enough equipment to do the job. I have allot of confidence with people. Like I posted earlier I will have one years rent up front. I have 35 students a year who I teach the guitar to Mon - Fri which bring me in €20,000 a year. I have ran summer camps (rock schools) to keep me in cash during the school summer break (July-Aug). The move to a studio B would grant me direct access to studio A for tracking drums and would place me in a more professional surrounding and a better overall position to record. When people see professional and you have a great reputation they are willing to pay more money so after year one the fees will rise. Maybe in the first year or two I will earn less money as I do now but that will not last forever. The first 3 years are the tough ones, once you make it past those things will start to look up. I am not stating that this will happen or that I know everything. I have spent the last 4 months evaluating my options to make money all which has been carefully plotted out on Excel sheets. I could certainly be wasting my time or I could fail in my business endeavor. The worse case scenario is that I move everything back home and engineer part time, get a job for Pearl Audio Visual and settle down and have kids. I never want to look back in my life and regret not taking a serious but bold step. I never want to look back and say I was too scared to commit. I have the youth and freedom behind me now and although a challenge it may be I am always up for a good challenge and will work my bollix off 24/7 to pay the piper. Could be a waste of time, who knows. It could be the best thing I did.

jtsuited

dav nagle wrote: »

Good posts,


This is a point in my life which I have been looking forward to for 6 years. As someone who has been self employed for those 6 years I know how to make money by myself. I am single and have no baggage mentally or physically. I have a 62 page business plan bounded and approved by professional bankers and investors. I have enough equipment to do the job. I have allot of confidence with people. Like I posted earlier I will have one years rent up front. I have 35 students a year who I teach the guitar to Mon - Fri which bring me in €20,000 a year. I have ran summer camps (rock schools) to keep me in cash during the school summer break (July-Aug). The move to a studio B would grant me direct access to studio A for tracking drums and would place me in a more professional surrounding and a better overall position to record. When people see professional and you have a great reputation they are willing to pay more money so after year one the fees will rise. Maybe in the first year or two I will earn less money as I do now but that will not last forever. The first 3 years are the tough ones, once you make it past those things will start to look up. I am not stating that this will happen or that I know everything. I have spent the last 4 months evaluating my options to make money all which has been carefully plotted out on Excel sheets. I could certainly be wasting my time or I could fail in my business endeavor. The worse case scenario is that I move everything back home and engineer part time, get a job for Pearl Audio Visual and settle down and have kids. I never want to look back in my life and regret not taking a serious but bold step. I never want to look back and say I was too scared to commit. I have the youth and freedom behind me now and although a challenge it may be I am always up for a good challenge and will work my bollix off 24/7 to pay the piper. Could be a waste of time, who knows. It could be the best thing I did.

Sounds like you're up to it anywho.
Worst comes to worst, you can get all those 'You're a Star' deluded people in and I'll do your backin tracks for ya!

Seriously when they're holdin auditions for that thing in the RDS, you could be outside with business cards/studio brochures, sayin you'll do them a cheap deal and will provide professional musicians and even songs (for a commission of course).
There's enough deluded people in this world to throw money behind their own deluded ambition.

time to cash in.


jaysus i'm full of good ideas this week!

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

Sounds like you're up to it anywho.
Worst comes to worst, you can get all those 'You're a Star' deluded people in and I'll do your backin tracks for ya!

Seriously when they're holdin auditions for that thing in the RDS, you could be outside with business cards/studio brochures, sayin you'll do them a cheap deal and will provide professional musicians and even songs (for a commission of course).
There's enough deluded people in this world to throw money behind their own deluded ambition.

time to cash in.


jaysus i'm full of good ideas this week!

Exactly man, now your talking. There is that market there and I will be part of it if it means making money!

jtsuited

dav nagle wrote: »

Exactly man, now your talking. There is that market there and I will be part of it if it means making money!

ah ffs, why do i keep tellin people all the good ideas!!

dav nagle

white_falcon wrote: »

I would advise you to read Screw it Lets do It by Richard Branson - has some seriously fantastic business stuff in it and you'd read the whole thing in about 2-3 hrs....I seriously can't advise you to read it enough!

That book sounds like fun I want it NOW!:rolleyes:

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

ah ffs, why do i keep tellin people all the good ideas!!

TBH I am one step ahead in that department!

Check it out!

http://www.myspace.com/popstarstudios

Web page is on route!

sei046

Dav, If you dont mind me asking how is the studio doing now?
Where exactly are you expanding from? Is there a backlog of work that cant be done unless this move happens?

Dave

jtsuited

dav nagle wrote: »

TBH I am one step ahead in that department!

Check it out!

http://www.myspace.com/popstarstudios

Web page is on route!

haha. the background alone is vomit-inducing. which means it'll probably do very well!