2.5% rise 1st September

In my opinion

Is our payrise of two and a half percent coming soon? I got my increment last Thursday but is the pay agreement still on course? I'm a primary school teacher!

Toto Wolfcastle

In my opinion wrote: »

Is our payrise of two and a half percent coming soon? I got my increment last Thursday but is the pay agreement still on course? I'm a primary school teacher!

What I was told is that it's coming but not yet. It's been delayed. Of course I have no idea about any of this but that's what other teachers have told me.

TheDriver

Apparently, there is a dispute with ASTI regarding seniority in post interviews hence payment has been withheld until agreement is met. There is the rumour that it won't be backpaid either.

gaeilgegrinds

TUI claimed it was INTO, interesting! No point passing the blame as in my opinion they're just looking for an excuse. Makes me sick

ytareh

Well if our school is anything to go by skipping seniority will be a VERY bad idea.Absolute WAR caused amongst staff getting them to compete against one another for posts ...Maybe thats the idea ...divide and conquer...Decades long friendships ruined ,bitterness and mistrust between younger and older staff ...bring it on!Another step backwards for our working conditions...

gaeilgegrinds

I hear you on that one causing ructions everywhere!

J.R.

Is anybody working in a school where the most senior person did not get the post of responsibility?

spurious

This often happens in VEC schools.
In our schools the person best suited for the job gets the post. Sometimes this is the most senior person, but not always.
The criteria are quite transparent and on appeal a person can apply to see the marks given to everyone else at interview. I would hate to think I got my post just because I'd been there the longest.

In my opinion

In my experience in national schools down the country just one member of staff applies. The most senior unless they do not want it. DP or Principal is different of course!

gaeilgegrinds

In ours it's whoever is best suited.

bdoo

As i understand it there are two issues Promotional posts and underperforming teachers. ASTI want to keep seniority alone TUI already have another system. The key issue with the other thing is who decides that a teacher is unfit. Union position is that it shouldnt be the principal but Dept wanted this

sitstill

Does anyone know is there an update on this? Has it all been sorted out and will it be backdated?

rainbowtrout

J.R. wrote: »

Is anybody working in a school where the most senior person did not get the post of responsibility?

yep, i got a post with 6 years experience over a teacher with 10 years and a teacher with 16 years. I don't feel bad about it either, I put the hours in.

many teachers (sernior to me) in my school put the work in and deserve their posts but some feel they deserve one just because they turn up and do their 22 hours. I don't know of any other workplace that would give promotions to people simply because they turn up for work.

anyway my post aside, it's senior teachers appealing against senior teachers for posts in my school. we've had appeals each year for the last 3 years.

ytareh

Well the whole POINT of these 'posts' as I see them is as a kind of 'long service loyalty bonus' anyway !A previous poster stated that there have been appeals for the last three years in his school with Im sure very bad blood as a result .This sort of negativity inevitably draws staff members into 'camps' and staffrooms are amongst the 'clique-y-est ' places I know of to begin with !But as I said before I believe that the management style that pervades a good proportion of schools in Ireland would be happier to see staff competiting and fighting amongst one another rather than with the Principal or DP...'Divide and Conquer'.
A typical scenario (come on the rest of you back me up on this one !)will see staff members filling the role of either 'goodies',subservient to and unquestioning of the principal or 'baddies' who are 'negative' and complain about conditions in the school.If there is 'open' competition for a post guess who gets it ?!(even if the latter candidate has far longer service and is patently more suited to and deserving of the job)

ytareh

This is such an emotive issue as is evidenced even here with a small selection of posts on the topic.NOT REFERRING TO ANY POSTERS HERE OBVIOUSLY but in my experience the 'dynamic' ,'young'(er) candidate who will step over a colleague for a post often possesses a seriously backstabbing egocentric character .

rainbowtrout

ytareh wrote: »

A typical scenario (come on the rest of you back me up on this one !)will see staff members filling the role of either 'goodies',subservient to and unquestioning of the principal or 'baddies' who are 'negative' and complain about conditions in the school.If there is 'open' competition for a post guess who gets it ?!(even if the latter candidate has far longer service and is patently more suited to and deserving of the job)

Remember that when a post comes up it's not a specific role you apply for, it's simply a post and when you apply you put down your choices from the list of available duties. A post isn't advertised as 'IT Co-ordinator' or 'Exam Secretary' it's advertised as Special Duties Teacher/Assistant Principal, so you pick the post duties you think you are suited to and apply accordingly so no one can say a person is being awarded a job they are not suited to ahead of a person who is suited to it.

Longer service doesn't equate to a better work ethic and doesn't mean a person is more deserving of a job.

ytareh wrote: »

This is such an emotive issue as is evidenced even here with a small selection of posts on the topic.NOT REFERRING TO ANY POSTERS HERE OBVIOUSLY but in my experience the 'dynamic' ,'young'(er) candidate who will step over a colleague for a post often possesses a seriously backstabbing egocentric character .

That's a very sweeping statement, perhaps it might be more accurate to say that younger candidates don't see teaching jobs as a job for life as was seen in the past, will change career if they want to and will work hard to get on. I am a younger teacher with a post and I didn't stab anyone in the back to get my post, I'm the IT Co-ordinator and PLC Co-ordinator in my school, maintain the school website, run the football team and organise the school tour. I'm not looking for a clap on the back, I just do the work cos it needs to be done. The first three are post duties in my school, so I didn't see why I shouldn't apply for the job when other people were more senior than me were applying for the same post (PLC Coordinator) and weren't even aware of what courses we offered. At least I feel i could justify my application for the position.

It can mean more work for others anyway if someone is appointed to a post based on seniority and doesn't carry out their duties properly, it ends up falling back on someone else in the long run, which isn't very fair either.

spurious

I wouldn't necessarily see those who complain about conditions in the school as baddies. Some of the biggest complainers on our staff are post holders, but they are all are prepared to work at changing things, not just sit around moaning. It's the moaners who do nothing but undermine that are the most dangerous in a staffroom (I think). The worst of the lot are the ones who ALWAYS stay silent at staff meetings then bitch about everything in the staffroom afterwards.

I don't have a problem with the ASTI seniority thing as someone with more service would presumably have had more opportunity to show they can carry out the duties of the post and more opportunity to innovate.

implausible

ytareh wrote: »

This is such an emotive issue as is evidenced even here with a small selection of posts on the topic.NOT REFERRING TO ANY POSTERS HERE OBVIOUSLY but in my experience the 'dynamic' ,'young'(er) candidate who will step over a colleague for a post often possesses a seriously backstabbing egocentric character .

What a statement! I would not consider myself a backstabber or egocentric, yet I am quite open to the idea of getting on in my career and earning a few extra quid in the process. Remember, that often teachers go for posts when they are doing what could be a special duty anyway e.g. co-ordinating PLC courses.

Applying for a job in open competition is not 'stepping over' anyone. Why should an incompetent teacher should be given a post because s/he is there a long time? Some of these people are just happen to be still teaching in the school they started off in.

I agree with the TUI position that some element of seniority can remain but the rest should be on merit.

Trotter

ytareh wrote: »

Well the whole POINT of these 'posts' as I see them is as a kind of 'long service loyalty bonus' anyway !

Well thats highly incorrect anyway.

ytareh wrote: »

A typical scenario (come on the rest of you back me up on this one !)will see staff members filling the role of either 'goodies',subservient to and unquestioning of the principal or 'baddies' who are 'negative' and complain about conditions in the school.If there is 'open' competition for a post guess who gets it ?!(even if the latter candidate has far longer service and is patently more suited to and deserving of the job)

I don't see a queue forming to back you up because I expect that you've no basis whatsoever to suggest that this is a typical scenario.

ytareh wrote: »

in my experience the 'dynamic' ,'young'(er) candidate who will step over a colleague for a post often possesses a seriously backstabbing egocentric character .

Thats a pretty outrageous thing to say.

In the real world, the best person gets the job.
Why should a job be given to someone who isn't the best person for the job?

How you can make assertions about people's character to that degree is beyond me anyway.

It translates to me as take the job I've decided I deserve, and I'll tear shreds out of your character.

Thats 1970's old school teacher mentality. Those days are over.

ytareh

Yes the 'old school' 1970s teacher mentality is on its knees if not gone .Back then and until recently we had one of the best education systems in the world.We are mimicking the British what with 'subject departments' , whole school evaluations , more time in 'inservice training' than in the classroom , lunchtime/after school meetings , gross bureaucracy-form filling ad nauseum , 'health and safety' evaluations ,etc etc .Funny thing is everybody knows the British cant get back to the 'old' system fast enough with an increasing proportion having to resort to private education as the public system buckles under the new 'management'("Work harder for your pay cut!!!") philosophy.
Even on this thread there is the stench of the sinister 'underperforming teachers' catch phrase which will set this profession aflame in the next few years .I never would have thought this would have come from within though. As if to prove my point someone here scathingly refers to teachers who have spent their whole careers or decades of it in the one school as if that is something to be ashamed of or 'lacking ambition'.Someone even suggests that spending a lifetime teaching is unambitious...


Other comments by posters: (A FEW RESPONSES IN CAPITALS FOR EMPHASIS -NO IM NOT SHOUTING ...YES I KNOW SOME NERDS THINK USING 'CAPS' IS SHOUTING ...SAME SORT THAT THINK YOU SPELL YOU , "U".)

"I would hate to think I got my post just because I'd been there the longest "

"I don't feel bad about it either, I put the hours in.
many teachers (sernior to me) in my school put the work in and deserve their posts but some feel they deserve one just because they turn up and do their 22 hours.(YOU MEAN THEY "PUT THE HOURS IN"!?) I don't know of any other workplace that would give promotions to people simply because they turn up for work."(NO,HOWEVER MANY SENIOR POSITIONS ,EVEN PRESIDENT, HAVE A MINIMUM AGE... )


"Longer service doesn't equate to a better work ethic and doesn't mean a person is more deserving of a job."(AS ABOVE)

"getting on in my career"

"incompetent teacher "


etc etc ...

With the current seniority based system everybody gets their turn .Its the fairest by far .
Also I think "Last in ,first out" still applies in many sectors which I would consider by extension to back up the system of seniority.
I am not an 'old' teacher by any means quite the opposite in fact but I have learned from my more experienced colleagues (and parents!) the value of respect for age and collegiality .
The 'Hothouse' teachers ,'ambitious' ,(like something from a Jilly Cooper or Julie Birchall novel LOL)in my experience rarely complete anything like a normal term of service as a teacher .They will almost inevitably end up 'burned out' (one guy above already talking about changing careers?)and giving 'inservice courses' or serving on committees (maybe on the Teaching Council!?)Trouble is they burn out many teachers along the way with them and if they get to be principal fire temporary teachers willy nilly if they are not cut from the same 'ambitious' cloth .

Tom Dunne

ytareh - please tone it down and refrain from calling people nerds.

If you had a good look at the screen in front of you, you might notice a wide range of options for emphasis, including colour, bold, italics and underline.

Keep the discussion civil and to the point.

implausible

ytareh

Since when did ambition become a bad thing in any career? The teaching profession needs young dynamic people who are willing to work hard, not just do the bare minimum because they will get promoted after X amount of years.

You referred to my post about teachers spending their entire careers in one school. I have a few clarifications to make about my comment:

(1) Teachers who spend their entire careers in one school sometimes have a narrow view of the education system.
(2) Often spending your entire career in one school is down to sheer luck.
(3) I have recently moved school after 7 years of service and now I have to start at the bottom of the ladder again. In a merit system, I get credit for this, in the present system, I get set back for it.

And as for underperforming teachers, nobody likes the sound of this or the threat of this accusation. However, I feel you must be teaching in a perfect school, where every teacher gives it his/her best and where the 1970's live on, with the utmost respect from kids and parents. Everybody knows a teacher who has long since given up caring and yet got promoted.

The 'job for life', 'cushy number' and automatic respect from students is gone. Teachers, who are willing to work, give something back to the school and genuinely care about the kids in their care, should be applauded and encouraged, not ranted against by teachers who hanker after the good ol' days!

J.R.

spurious wrote: »

I wouldn't necessarily see those who complain about conditions in the school as baddies. Some of the biggest complainers on our staff are post holders, but they are all are prepared to work at changing things, not just sit around moaning. It's the moaners who do nothing but undermine that are the most dangerous in a staffroom (I think). The worst of the lot are the ones who ALWAYS stay silent at staff meetings then bitch about everything in the staffroom afterwards.
QUOTE]

Agree 100%

rainbowtrout

deemark wrote: »

What a statement! I would not consider myself a backstabber or egocentric, yet I am quite open to the idea of getting on in my career and earning a few extra quid in the process. Remember, that often teachers go for posts when they are doing what could be a special duty anyway e.g. co-ordinating PLC courses.

Applying for a job in open competition is not 'stepping over' anyone. Why should an incompetent teacher should be given a post because s/he is there a long time? Some of these people are just happen to be still teaching in the school they started off in.

I agree with the TUI position that some element of seniority can remain but the rest should be on merit.

+1 to all of the above

Trotter wrote: »

In the real world, the best person gets the job.
Why should a job be given to someone who isn't the best person for the job?

this is the point i was trying to make

ytareh wrote: »

Yes the 'old school' 1970s teacher mentality is on its knees if not gone .Back then and until recently we had one of the best education systems in the world.We are mimicking the British what with 'subject departments' , whole school evaluations , more time in 'inservice training' than in the classroom , lunchtime/after school meetings , gross bureaucracy-form filling ad nauseum , 'health and safety' evaluations ,etc etc .Funny thing is everybody knows the British cant get back to the 'old' system fast enough with an increasing proportion having to resort to private education as the public system buckles under the new 'management'("Work harder for your pay cut!!!") philosophy.
Even on this thread there is the stench of the sinister 'underperforming teachers' catch phrase which will set this profession aflame in the next few years .I never would have thought this would have come from within though. As if to prove my point someone here scathingly refers to teachers who have spent their whole careers or decades of it in the one school as if that is something to be ashamed of or 'lacking ambition'.Someone even suggests that spending a lifetime teaching is unambitious...


Other comments by posters: (A FEW RESPONSES IN CAPITALS FOR EMPHASIS -NO IM NOT SHOUTING ...YES I KNOW SOME NERDS THINK USING 'CAPS' IS SHOUTING ...SAME SORT THAT THINK YOU SPELL YOU , "U".)

"I would hate to think I got my post just because I'd been there the longest "

"I don't feel bad about it either, I put the hours in.
many teachers (sernior to me) in my school put the work in and deserve their posts but some feel they deserve one just because they turn up and do their 22 hours.(YOU MEAN THEY "PUT THE HOURS IN"!?) I don't know of any other workplace that would give promotions to people simply because they turn up for work."(NO,HOWEVER MANY SENIOR POSITIONS ,EVEN PRESIDENT, HAVE A MINIMUM AGE... )


"Longer service doesn't equate to a better work ethic and doesn't mean a person is more deserving of a job."(AS ABOVE)

"getting on in my career"

"incompetent teacher "


etc etc ...

With the current seniority based system everybody gets their turn .Its the fairest by far .

I don't see the relevance of the comparison of the Irish system to the English system. It's irrelevant to how posts are awarded anyway.


Regarding the 22 hours thing: Yes teachers put the 22 hours in - they have to, it's what they are paid to do. What I was referring to is all the other work that teachers put it - coaching sports teams, green schools, school tours (home and abroad), musicals, and those in the main are student centred activities, there are plenty of others, keeping a computer room running smoothly by fixing machines, disciplinary duties etc etc.. if teachers essentially worked to rule and just did their teaching hours a lot of those activities and duties would not get done and some of those duties are awarded a post. So if a teacher is doing the work in an area and there is the opportunity of a post for their work, why shouldn't they apply?

And as for the minimum age thing, it wouldn't really work in schools because the age profile changes from school to school. some schools have a higher turn over of staff than others. so it would be impossible to set a minimum age. I think it would also fall foul of discrimination laws.... also taking my situation as a basic example: in terms of teaching experience I have the most experience in PLC in my school. However I was not the most senior person in terms of eligibility for a post. Does it mean someone who has more teaching years done than me should have been awarded the post instead just because they applied for the job, regardless of their lack of experience in adult education?

Trotter

More importantly.. when are we getting this money?? I still haven't heard from any sources whether it'll be back dated for definite.

bdoo

Still no word really on it as far as i can see but once it comes it should be back dated at any rate.

Ytareh....Chill out a bit there

Teacherman

Some people mention 'Putting hours in' being a criteria for promotion. Putting hours into what? It seems that a Principal might want you to put your focus outside the classroom to aid his/her agenda. What if you are a teacher, who prepares well for class, but does not run around like a blue arse fly doing the Principal's bidding?

Your standard post is only 3k a year-don't get your knickers in a twist over it.

Fast_Mover

Was at an INTO meeting last night..iirc I'm sure they said that we should be getting it before xmas and it will be back dated.

dingding

Any word on the situation in Third Level, it has not been paid there either for lecturing staff.

implausible

Gen Sec of TUI reckons the 2 main issues have been agreed in principle and we should get the money before xmas. If we don't, we're in bother as we'll not get it backdated-the money is only in the kitty for 2008!

sitstill

Any further update on this in relation to ASTI members? I believe the primary teachers are getting their money in December







(Also, woohoo, my 200th post )