M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

omicron

cgcsb wrote: »

Although the M20 might be the most important unfunded project from the NRA's point of view, remember that Irish Rail and the RPA also have dibs on the dept of transport purse strings, and with congestion in Dublin worsening, DART underground goes up the list and peak hour congestion in Mallow Co. Cork goes down the list for quite valid economic/social reasons other than Dublin bias. When Irish Rail get's it's €4bn to start tunnelling, that's when the M20 has a hope of going ahead.

At 1.6% interest on government debt they'd be mad not to start a few big infrastructure projects!

Hogzy

cgcsb wrote: »

Although the M20 might be the most important unfunded project from the NRA's point of view, remember that Irish Rail and the RPA also have dibs on the dept of transport purse strings, and with congestion in Dublin worsening, DART underground goes up the list and peak hour congestion in Mallow Co. Cork goes down the list for quite valid economic/social reasons other than Dublin bias. When Irish Rail get's it's €4bn to start tunnelling, that's when the M20 has a hope of going ahead.

Fair point but id imagine the Dart Underground will only affect certain areas of Dublin. Its not going to relieve all the congestion in the city. Where as the M20/Northern Ring will serve the entire City of Cork, all towns between Cork and Limerick as well as the Clare/Limerick area.

I would think there would be significantly more economic advantages to the M20 project than the Dart Underground when cost/time is taken into account

cgcsb

Hogzy wrote: »

Fair point but id imagine the Dart Underground will only affect certain areas of Dublin. Its not going to relieve all the congestion in the city. Where as the M20/Northern Ring will serve the entire City of Cork, all towns between Cork and Limerick as well as the Clare/Limerick area.

I would think there would be significantly more economic advantages to the M20 project than the Dart Underground when cost/time is taken into account

You are correct in that strictly speaking not all of Dublin will see a direct benefit, but people living along the four rail corridors in and out of the city will see a massive improvement to service and a fundamental shift towards rail based commuting will take place which will have knock on effects for the whole of Leinster.

But reverting back to your original point, I'd hazard a guess that the populations of the corridors affected by DART underground (and of course the associated measures included in the €4bn price tag) would greatly exceed that of the population served by the N/M20. Infact I'd go and go as far to say that the population served by the proposed new dart network probably exceeds all of Cork's population.

dubhthach

Simple solution build both

irishfeen

dubhthach wrote: »

Simple solution build both

Being brutally honest they should - infrastructural building is the very best thing we did in the good times. It is a very effective way of creating primary jobs and spin off jobs to an area ... Cork is now 2hrs and 20min drive from Dublin - our improved infrastructure isn't the only reason why exports are doing so well but it plays a massive part in being able to transfer goods between the 3 biggest cities in the country Cork - Dublin - Belfast with ease.

At peak times Cork to Limerick could take an hour and a half - absolutely ridiculous in 2014.

dubhthach

irishfeen wrote: »

Being brutally honest they should - infrastructural building is the very best thing we did in the good times. It is a very effective way of creating primary jobs and spin off jobs to an area ... Cork is now 2hrs and 20min drive from Dublin - our improved infrastructure isn't the only reason why exports are doing so well but it plays a massive part in being able to transfer goods between the 3 biggest cities in the country Cork - Dublin - Belfast with ease.

At peak times Cork to Limerick could take an hour and a half - absolutely ridiculous in 2014.

Don't forget Cork to Galway either, with M18/M17 about to start if the M20 is put in place you have Motorway/dualler all way between the two, it's easier to get to Dublin from Galway then it is to get to Cork.

zulutango

Can somebody spare me the bother of trawling back through the thread, and give us an update on where this project is at the moment? Are we looking at construction starting in 2015 or is it very much on the long finger?

irishfeen

dubhthach wrote: »

Don't forget Cork to Galway either, with M18/M17 about to start if the M20 is put in place you have Motorway/dualler all way between the two, it's easier to get to Dublin from Galway then it is to get to Cork.

Yep the M20 is the final major piece to Irish motorway jigsaw with that in place, others of course are needed but it's by far and away the most needed.

irishfeen

zulutango wrote: »

Can somebody spare me the bother of trawling back through the thread, and give us an update on where this project is at the moment? Are we looking at construction starting in 2015 or is it very much on the long finger?

Stopped after planning stage - money was never made available to complete the project - it's frozen until the government give it the go ahead.

I have heard though landowners being contacted again recently over the past few months but whether that is any indication I do not know.

SummerOfSam

hope it does get the go ahead soon!

Sorry if this has already been answered but what is the ballpark figure to construct the M20?

omicron

SummerOfSam wrote: »

hope it does get the go ahead soon!

Sorry if this has already been answered but what is the ballpark figure to construct the M20?

I think €800m is the figure been given.

irishfeen

omicron wrote: »

I think €800m is the figure been given.

Yep I think it's in that ball park alright - the main problem of course is that along that stretch we don't have any senior ministers ... Sean Sherlock and Tom Barry aren't exactly top of the tree with political influence.

Calina

irishfeen wrote: »

I have heard though landowners being contacted again recently over the past few months but whether that is any indication I do not know.

Not all landowners have been contacted recently.

irishfeen

Calina wrote: »

Not all landowners have been contacted recently.

No but I do know of a few around Mallow - have no idea what contact it was... Possibly something to do with a ring road perhaps??

zulutango

irishfeen wrote: »

Yep I think it's in that ball park alright - the main problem of course is that along that stretch we don't have any senior ministers ... Sean Sherlock and Tom Barry aren't exactly top of the tree with political influence.

But sure it should be in the interests of politicians in Limerick and Cork cities too, or maybe there's few votes for them in it? You'd think if a Limerick City or Cork City politician was able to say that they delivered the motorway between the two cities, the electorate would respond positively. Or is that expecting too much of the electorate?

irishfeen

zulutango wrote: »

But sure it should be in the interests of politicians in Limerick and Cork cities too, or maybe there's few votes for them in it? You'd think if a Limerick City or Cork City politician was able to say that they delivered the motorway between the two cities, the electorate would respond positively. Or is that expecting too much of the electorate?

Well I'll put it like this - I don't know anyone that does not want this to go ahead in the area ... Everyone is saying its badly needed and its disgraceful that we were overlooked for so long so whichever government which does give it the OK can only reap rewards.

cgcsb

I don't think any politician can openly say that they got this or that built because we are still operating on the pretense that infrastructure is built in response to need and availability of funds, not by political favours. A politician admitting such a thing is admitting corruption and ineffective capital spending.

Vanquished

zulutango wrote: »

But sure it should be in the interests of politicians in Limerick and Cork cities too, or maybe there's few votes for them in it? You'd think if a Limerick City or Cork City politician was able to say that they delivered the motorway between the two cities, the electorate would respond positively. Or is that expecting too much of the electorate?

It's expecting too much of both!

The M20 came too late to the party. The preferred route was only identified in the summer of 2008. Just as the economy was beginning to fall to pieces!

It doesn't even have planning approval. Varadkar pulled it from An Bord Pleanala in 2011 as a grant of permission would have meant that the CPOs would've had to have been activated within 18 months.

It's unfortunate that the project isn't shovel ready but at least the land acquisition costs should be lower now than when the project was first proposed.

SummerOfSam

Yeah, you would think as much as it's seen as a local issue by some, that the politician's of Limerick and Cork should do more to frame
it in the context of improving access to national infrastructure.

For an extra 800 million and when the M17-18 is complete. You will have
Motorway/DC access that joins together 3 cities (Galway - Limerick - Cork) and 2 regional airports (Shannon and Cork)
With new roads to Foynes and Ringaskiddy in the planing pipeline, it will also connect 2 major sea ports. (I think these will be EU funded? so no cost to exchequer)

A big plus that isn't often stated is that it will allow far easier commuting options between Clare/Limerick/Cork for those that choose
to do so. How many times have people not pursued a job position because it's just too far/expensive to travel?
I have even heard Shannon airport takes up a lot of business from Cork when it's fogged in!
It will allow these 3 cities to collaborate together and achieve more synergy and act as a counterbalance to Dublin which has become unbelievably expensive to live in, compared to these 3 cities.

Set the people free! :-D

More mobility all around then.
To think that for 800 million it will achieve all this and more, especially when you take safety considerations into account also.
I currently can't think of any other project in the country that would deliver as much bang for your buck.

If we can spend 4 billion on Dart Underground (badly needed too by the way) what's an extra 800 million? :-D

RikkFlair

Theres a diversion off the n20 around Buttevant currently, for anyone heading between Limk and Cork, maybe allow extra time for your journey. Turns off south of Ballyhea and goes via Doneraile and comes back on road at Newtwopothouse.

Not sure what they are doing around Buttevant, just saw a sign for Major Roadworks.

zulutango

SummerOfSam wrote: »

Yeah, you would think as much as it's seen as a local issue by some, that the politician's of Limerick and Cork should do more to frame
it in the context of improving access to national infrastructure.

For an extra 800 million and when the M17-18 is complete. You will have
Motorway/DC access that joins together 3 cities (Galway - Limerick - Cork) and 2 regional airports (Shannon and Cork)
With new roads to Foynes and Ringaskiddy in the planing pipeline, it will also connect 2 major sea ports. (I think these will be EU funded? so no cost to exchequer)

A big plus that isn't often stated is that it will allow far easier commuting options between Clare/Limerick/Cork for those that choose
to do so. How many times have people not pursued a job position because it's just too far/expensive to travel?
I have even heard Shannon airport takes up a lot of business from Cork when it's fogged in!
It will allow these 3 cities to collaborate together and achieve more synergy and act as a counterbalance to Dublin which has become unbelievably expensive to live in, compared to these 3 cities.

Set the people free! :-D

More mobility all around then.
To think that for 800 million it will achieve all this and more, especially when you take safety considerations into account also.
I currently can't think of any other project in the country that would deliver as much bang for your buck.

If we can spend 4 billion on Dart Underground (badly needed too by the way) what's an extra 800 million? :-D

Those are excellent points.

Being cynical for a second, perhaps there's a resistance in the capital to enabling this counter-balnce to the Dublin region?

Vanquished

RikkFlair wrote: »

Theres a diversion off the n20 around Buttevant currently, for anyone heading between Limk and Cork, maybe allow extra time for your journey. Turns off south of Ballyhea and goes via Doneraile and comes back on road at Newtwopothouse.

Not sure what they are doing around Buttevant, just saw a sign for Major Roadworks.

Resurfacing works.

zulutango

RikkFlair wrote: »

Theres a diversion off the n20 around Buttevant currently, for anyone heading between Limk and Cork, maybe allow extra time for your journey. Turns off south of Ballyhea and goes via Doneraile and comes back on road at Newtwopothouse.

Not sure what they are doing around Buttevant, just saw a sign for Major Roadworks.

Every year, at this time of year, there are road works in Buttevant. There's something fishy going on there, I reckon ...

Pete_Cavan

Has there ever been any talk of taking enough land in the CPO to have a rail line run along side the motorway between Patrickswell and Charleville? Even if the rail line wasnt built at the same time, if enough land was taken and bridges designed to accommodate the rail line, it would allow for decent rail link between the two cities. If it is not allowed for the M20 plans it will never happen.

Hogzy

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Has there ever been any talk of taking enough land in the CPO to have a rail line run along side the motorway between Patrickswell and Charleville? Even if the rail line wasnt built at the same time, if enough land was taken and bridges designed to accommodate the rail line, it would allow for decent rail link between the two cities. If it is not allowed for the M20 plans it will never happen.

Id say when the motorway is built the journey times will be so quick that a bus would be a quicker and less expensive option between Cork and Limerick.

irishfeen

There should of course also be plans to develop a high speed rail link between Cork - Dublin - Belfast akin to the Manchester to London route being built in the UK... of course a Luas system in Cork.

We cannot fall behind the rest of Europe in terms of infrastructure, our long term economic survival will need a world class transport system.

Pete_Cavan

Hogzy wrote: »

Id say when the motorway is built the journey times will be so quick that a bus would be a quicker and less expensive option between Cork and Limerick.

Yes, no doubt that would be the case. Still would be a good idea to allow for the rail link in the future. As said above, Cork - Limerick should form a counter-balance to Dublin we should be looking at things like this from a long term planning perspective. What would the additional land take be - 10m strip x long 30km? Thats less than 10 acres. No brainer really

zulutango

irishfeen wrote: »

There should of course also be plans to develop a high speed rail link between Cork - Dublin - Belfast akin to the Manchester to London route being built in the UK... of course a Luas system in Cork.

We cannot fall behind the rest of Europe in terms of infrastructure, our long term economic survival will need a world class transport system.

How feasible would a LUAS be in Cork?

I'd like to think that Limerick could do with a single line connecting Castletroy - city centre - Raheen

AugustusMinimus

zulutango wrote: »

How feasible would a LUAS be in Cork?

I'd like to think that Limerick could do with a single line connecting Castletroy - city centre - Raheen

Cork is hillier and it is a more square shape than Limerick. In an ideal world, you could have a line with this movement:

Ballincollig - CIT - UCC - City Centre - Douglas - Airport - Carrigaline

That would link both the airport and 2 of Cork's biggest satellite towns with the City Centre. It would also mean that the entire line wouldn't require crossing of the River Lee which would help keep costs down.

Potential then for a spur off of this line:

City Centre - Blackrock - Ballintemple - Mahon - Mahon Point Shopping Centre


North side is much hillier and wouldn't be suitable for a LUAS style system.

Calina

Cork has historically had trams so I don't think its impossible per se.