M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

pajoguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435545#Comment_121435545

They mentioned the 1st junction is not within the scope but the road design team along with TII are looking at safety improvements but that doesnt mean capacity improvements

There will be one movement at attyflinn that wont be freeflow. M21N to M20S will utilise existing bridge

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121433555#Comment_121433555

Nonsense. They should be forced to print a retraction and apology.

Hibernicis

I'll give a synopsis on the Webinar. First the housekeeping:

Started on time at 7pm and ended just after 8:35. Opened by Jari Howard (Project Co-Ordinator) who introduced two of his team members, Tom Cannon and Steve Wallace. The first 15 mins was the project team talking through the update, using the published update document per the website as a guide/agenda. They moved through this briskly. A lot of this was familiar to anybody who had read the update. The standout for me was the clarity around the Transport and Freight Hubs. The project team appear to have really bought into this concept and are both excited about it and determined to make it work. And I think that what they have in mind will be greatly welcomed by all here. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out, but it will be a game changer if they are successful and it isn't all slashed/sacrificed at some point later in the project.

The remaining 80 mins were spent going through questions (that had been submitted via e-mail and also some that were submitted online during the seminar via Teams). Again this moved at a brisk pace and it touched on many topics and frankly there wasn't a moment wasted. There were 70 people online for the Webinar.

I have 13 pages of notes from this and I had thought about typing the whole lot up as I did the last time, however I think the majority of it will be old hat to people here - mainly clarification about various points. So I'll try to pick out the bits that stood out for me. Can I say that the discussion moved quickly and it wasn't always easy to keep up, so I'll apologies in advance for any omissions, errors and inaccuracies.

The very first question selected for answering was the three sub-questions re Junctions/Interchanges which I submitted (see post #8210). I'll post the response to this separately in a little while.

Next standout was the final question: Will the road be motorway or "standard DC" ? Jari Howard answered this very clearly. The decision on whether the road will be motorway or protected road will be taken later, in 2024, in consultation with TII and the Department. But he was very clear that (1) the road will have the same cross section throughout, two lanes with hard shoulder (per Concept A illustration) and (2) it will have the same legal status, motorway or protected road, throughout, "Whole Way, All The Way" he said, and (3) all junctions will be grade separated dumbbells with slip roads. So gone is the risk of two bits of 120kmh motorway at either end with a length of 100kmh track in the middle.

Freight Hub. Both Mallow and Charleville under consideration as the location for this.

Transport hubs. A lot of work being put into this. In general, these will be located between the junctions and the nearby town/community. No "one size fits all" standard model, each will respond to local needs and circumstances. Detailed description as per the update. EV charging will be provided, however there are supply constraints in some locations and solutions are being looked at.

The Mallow Relief road isn't shown on the layered maps, but they are in regular contact with that project team (Tom has been a member of both and so there is a sharing of information). They will look at adding that road as a layer on the online map. The Mallow active travel solution is included on the maps. The Mallow N/M20 junction at Oliver's Cross will be non standard as it will interface with the N72, N73 and the Mallow Relief Road. Thinking is that the N72 and N73 will be interlinked by a local road as part of the junction.

Other Junctions (apart from terminal Junctions/Interchanges). There were questions in relation to almost every one of the junctions, placement, design etc. Per the above these will be be grade separated dumbbells with slip roads. Locations per the map updates.

Croom Junction - the rational behind the split junction was questioned. The decision is a result of the problems posed by a housing estate that would block the slip road if a single junction design was adopted. The split junctions will be interlinked by a local road running beside the active travel route to the west of it.

Rathduff was discussed a lot, in particular the reasons for the corridor being moved. Feedback was a major consideration, desire to reduce inconvenience, not to sever link between village and national school and move traffic away from the existing houses. Team believes that the offline route that is now going forward is a better solution all round.

Buttervent Junction: the link road from the town to the junction will be challenging, as it will need to cater for road traffic as well as active travel route, and need to take account of the fact that there are houses on both sides of the road.

Waterloo - Whitechurch: Will the existing road be retained or severed with dead ends. Definitely will be retained, and enhanced with active travel.

CPO timeline: 2025 is the expectation

Contract: One 80km contract is possibly a bit big. 30/40km regarded as a good size for a contract, so possibly/probably two contracts, possibly running concurrently.

Active Travel: Jari was quite emphatic about the need for this. Currently, in rural areas, cycling is not an option. Active travel facilities are not just for the men in lycra zooming on racing bikes from Cork to Limerick. It's all about allowing locals all along the way to walk the dog, hop up on the bike to buy a pint of milk, use it for leisure and local journeys. He finished with the phase "We really need to do this" and left a lasting impression that this is not just lip service, but the AT just like the Transport and Freight Hubs are part and parcel of the solution.

Is land in the 200m corridor sterile as regards planning. Jari recommended that anybody with thoughts of planning, especially extensions, renovation and farm buildings get in contact with the project team and arrange a pre planning consultation. No guarantees, but they are certainly willing to engage.

Charleville got a fair bit of discussion, various points: (1) junction link road is immediately north of the Lidl distribution centre (2) 1,000 trucks a day passing through and the intention is to remove this through traffic, declassify the through road, reduce speed limits, reduce carriageway width, improve safety, add pedestrian crossings, add landscaping. A lot going on within CCC to de-risk Charleville and project team are in contact.

Tolls. No decision at this point. TII Project Guidelines require that alternative financing is considered. Decision will be made in conjunction with the department and TII. Project team are conscious of the experience of Fermoy and Portaloise where toll dodgers are allegedly bringing traffic back up to pre bypass levels.

Expectations re ABP. Submission goes to ABP as part of Phase 4 and realistically the ABP process is likely to take at least 12 months given near certainty of an Oral hearing. Everybody is aware of the issues associated with ABP at present; the hope is that these will have been resolved and ABP will be operating under its new name and on its new footing by the time the submission goes in. Actual time is outside the control of the project team.

Existing Rail Line: Is any part of the existing Cork-Dublin rail line being moved - No. General intention is that historic rail bridges will be maintained.

Construction disruption on Online Sections. team are very aware of the issues, especially near Croom and Blarney. The team have experience of this from the Nenagh and M7 upgrades

Land take: Will this actually be 200m. In general it should average 100m, especially where the road is running at ground level. Where the road is elevated, near junction and other structures etc. the land take will be more, and in some cases, e.g. following consultations with landowners, mad deviate slightly from the published corridor.

Will the road and associated structures allow for the delivery of wind turbines etc. Yes, per TII guidelines.

Jari concluded by mentioning the second Webinar, scheduled for 7pm on Wednesday 6th December 2023. The link is on the M/N20 website and in my post above. I would definitely recommend it to anybody who is interested and who has an hour or so to spare. Also be aware that you are free to submit questions in advance, anonymously if you wish. easiest way to do this is by e-mail to  info@corklimerick.ie or using the form on the website.

Finally, if anybody else was on the call and notes any errors or omissions, please let me know within the next 24 hours and I'll edit the above.

Hibernicis

With regard to the three questions which I submitted (see post #8210) the answers given were as follows:

M20/M7/N18 interchange – will this be upgraded to handle the additional traffic and to eliminate current shortcomings ?

This existing junction is not in scope - the project ends in the vicinity of the junction of the M/N20 and the M21. However the project team are aware that people in the office are looking at this junction, specifically with a view to improving safety and efficiency.

M20/M21 interchange – what format will this interchange take, a full free flow junction allowing all possible movements, in particular M20N to M21S and M21N to M20S or a restricted trumpet style interchange similar to the M7/M9 merge/diverge and the M7/M8 merge/diverge or a roundabout of some sort ?

This is being planned as a free flow junction for all movements apart from one. This is the M21N to M20S, which will be via the existing over bridge at Attyflynn.

M20 Blackpool interchange/termination – what is under consideration here to cater for the smooth, safe and efficient arrival of a large volume of high speed traffic in the vicinity of Blackpool ? Will provision be made for future interconnection with the road formerly known as the Cork Northern Ring Road and/or any future extension of the N/M40 North and West and/or any Cork Northern Distributor Road ?

The scope of the N/M20 project ends just south of Blarney and so will interface with the existing dual carriageway running into Blackpool. The other projects mentioned are all at early phases, however Project Team are conscious of these projects and will coordinate with these teams.

Limerick74

Very impressive summary, many thanks for that.

Hibernicis

Final Comments on the webinar.

Questions were tackled head on and answered succinctly and factually. There wasn't one iota of political bs, or any of the usual ducking and weaving and non-information you expect at such events. It was actually quite refreshing. It leaves you with the feeling that the project is in good hands, for now at any rate. The big decisions are still ahead of us.

Feedback and Consultation. If Jari mentioned the need for feedback once, he mentioned it twenty times. He urged anyone with concerns, questions, suggestions etc to get in contact. They want feedback which they regard as critically useful data on which to base decisions. He was only once step away from [pleading with people to get in contact. Examples given were any landowners with any concerns about CPOs, isolated islands following land acquisition, access rights, Community reps with issues around safety, access, enduring linkage between areas, and anyone else with any questions or suggestions. Feedback and requests for one on one consultations can be sent either by e-mail to info@corklimerick.ie or using the form on the website

So now is your opportunity to get your spoke in for anybody that has any strongly held views. The window is still open, but it's closing as every day passes.

marno21

First of all, @Hibernicis, take a bow that is quite the ball of information you have provided us.

Charleville got a fair bit of discussion, various points: (1) junction link road is immediately north of the Lidl distribution centre (2) 1,000 trucks a day passing through and the intention is to remove this through traffic, declassify the through road, reduce speed limits, reduce carriageway width, improve safety, add pedestrian crossings, add landscaping. A lot going on within CCC to de-risk Charleville and project team are in contact.

I've posted a good bit about Charleville on this thread, and the number of fatalities in recent years is making it stand out as you say.

I know it's a) not a good idea in road design terms and b) not popular in modern Irish motorway design culture but Charleville is a prime case of a town which may need the two junction treatment. I am familiar with using the R515 from the west to access the N20 towards Limerick, and a large volume of traffic from a large swathe of North West Cork uses the same routing, with quite a few trucks on the route too. I was always baffled why there wasn't at least a set of north facing slips provided at Charleville Golf Club, where the R515/N20 intersect. Such a move would remove a lot of north heading traffic from the town altogether, especially the narrow Smiths Lane R515 into the town, where there is a school also.

Were the following approach taken, with possibly some link roads required, the majority of traffic would be gone from the town and would not use the existing N20 to access the new motorway

O'Rourke's Cross: Access to R518, Bruree & Kilmallock, along with traffic from Charleville heading North

Golf Club/R515: Access for traffic from Newmarket/Kanturk/Newtown etc, along with traffic from the western side of the town

Ballyhea: Access for town traffic heading south, access to Lidl distribution centre etc

There is already an existing town bypass route along Brooks Road to the east of the town, which could be upgraded to allow Kerry/R515 traffic to bypass the town heading south. Said traffic heading north can access Limerick Road near Centra/Applegreen and avoid Main Street also.

One possible fudge could be a link road between the Golf Club and the Ballyhea junction, but it seems a needlessly expensive alternative to a few slip roads where the N20 and R515 intersect.

marno21

Also fantastic to see it'll be Type 1 DC throughout. Assuming it'll be motorway restrictions unless there is good reason not to have them (I can't think of any except enviromentalist placation)

Tolls. No decision at this point. TII Project Guidelines require that alternative financing is considered. Decision will be made in conjunction with the department and TII. Project team are conscious of the experience of Fermoy and Portaloise where toll dodgers are allegedly bringing traffic back up to pre bypass levels.

By the time this is built, I see no reason why the entire route could not be tolled with distance based tolling. Say for example 40c for every 10km used. There are a limited amount of junctions on the route so it's not an enormous amount of tolling points required. Similar to how it's done on the M4 or M7 motorways in New South Wales. There would be no incentive then to avoid one particular section such as a river crossing as in Fermoy/Waterford/Drogheda.

pajoguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436343#Comment_121436343

Your last point about the possible fudge may be in their thinking. Along the east of the new road following the active travel line. similar to croom they dont show this on map as a link road but was clarified last night a link rd would be built west of the new rd in croom to link the 2 junctions. probably like the 2010 plan.

Chris_5339762

Very interesting and they seem to be on the ball for answering questions directly, and without fluff.

Good to hear the the M20/M21 junction will be freeflow (mostly) and will have all movements catered for - unlike M7/8 and M7/9. The use of the current road for the M21N to M20S movement is clever.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435278#Comment_121435278

Northern bypass too. Both are needed

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436982#Comment_121436982

Surely it'll be an M7/M8 or M7/M9 spec junction with a M20N -> M21W slip added and the tricky movement accommodated by the existing road as above.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437158#Comment_121437158

Yeah thats pretty much what I mean, a fairly smart solution all around.

Bass Reeves

Was lustrning to U thinknit wa Conor Faughner on the radio on Wednesday I think. He gave a statistic that not only is the Cork Limerick the most dangerous regarding fatalities as well you are four rides more likely to be seriously injured if you are in an accident on that road.

It's 25 years since it was first proposed as well.

spacetweek

And 15 years since this thread started, in 2008!

spacetweek

I just finished in the second webinar. Here are my notes.

The 200-metre corridor will be reduced to the exact route next year.

Next year there will be a project update in Q2 by June, with a further update by end Nov 2024

Later in 2024 the final fenceline will be shown.

All landowners should have been contacted by now. Based on the landowning registry, 2000 letters were written to the owners in the 500-metre corridor. It's acknowledged that some residents (e.g. renters) who are not in the register may have been missed.

The active travel measures will be provided by the scheme not separately by Cork County Council. It is not intended that horses will be allowed on these routes.

At Rathduff (and other villages) measures to be taken on the old road include carriageway narrowing and footpath widening or addition where missing.

The existing N20 will be used as the offline sustainable travel route as much as possible.

This approach was used throughout the scheme (also for the mainline) in the name of sustainability.

At the northern end the tie in to the existing M20 is constrained by the Limerick-Foynes railway line which is being reactivated. This is one of the reasons an N21E to M20S movement is not being provided. Instead you will exit at Attflin, do a U-turn then head M20W then M20S.

A question I asked too late, and which I've emailed them about instead is: Will the north end M20 junction have the M20 as the mainline and Limerick traffic heading for Adare must exit? (Right now it's the opposite).

Limerick74

I’d guess the Limerick to Kerry motorway will have priority and the new NM20 will tie into it like the M8 merges into the M7

alias no.9

Playing devils advocate on the connection from the R515, currently it's common enough for traffic to leave the N72 at Ballymaquirk and join the N20 at Charleville, I've done it many times myself.

Perhaps they're deliberately making this an even sh!ttier experience than it is now to make the N72 to N20 the more desirable route, a little bit of a nudge to take traffic off the R roads and yes I know exactly what parts of the N72 are like.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121464394#Comment_121464394

I would think so purely because making the M20 the mainline would be much more work - also the point at which the M20 will diverge I'm going to guess will actually be on the new of Adare bypass M21, so fecking about with that would require all sort of work.

spacetweek

"A question I asked too late, and which I've emailed them about instead is: Will the north end M20 junction have the M20 as the mainline and Limerick traffic heading for Adare must exit? (Right now it's the opposite)."

They answered me but misunderstood and just told me how to get from M21W-M20S via Attyflin.

I drew out the diagrams for M20E-M20S mainline and M20E-M21W mainline and yes it's more bridges to build M20E-M20S mainline. So they'll build a TOTSO here and flow M20E west onto M21. You'll have to exit to continue on M20 to Cork. A certain percentage of motorists will miss this turn off!

Hibernicis

So basically when heading South you’ll have to turn off the M20 to remain on it……

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489123#Comment_121489123

Cork people should be well used to this from the M8 junction. It shouldn’t be an issue if signed properly

And the Adare interchange will only be 4km or so west of here should someone make an error

hans aus dtschl

Seems unintuitive to me that the second city is always a "turn off" of the main alignment which goes to another smaller town or city.

But it shouldn't be a major issue.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489543#Comment_121489543

The M8 is a different road, you expect to turn off on to it. The M20 is the same road number.

pajoguy

The M21 will be built first so I suppose its easier tie into that mainline than reconfigure the M21 for the new junction when M20 is built. It would be nice if that junction could be set up flyover/underpass etc when M21 is being built to simplify the tie in of the M20 when it being built.

Chris_5339762

Also we have to turn off the M20 to go to Cork anyway as it is. So this one won't be a major adjustment.

source

The easiest option would be to rename the current section of M20 to M21 and have that continuous, with a turn off to the M20.

marno21

The main road to Ireland's 2nd, 3rd and 5th cities carries the route number of the road to the 3rd city.

The main road to Ireland's 4th city carries the route number of of the road to the 24th largest settlement.

It's all symbolism at the end of the day. It's a small issue in the grand scheme of things actually getting this road built (and the M21 it'll tie into) is the bigger hurdle.

Mrs Dempsey

Some say that the M20, when built, will not reach Ireland's second city - the M1 does that at its northern end!

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121489543#Comment_121489543

The M7 is the through road, so it makes sense that the M7 numbering remains with the mainline and the M8 which branches off adopts a new number.

The road exiting Limerick is (currently at any rate) the M20 and if what spaceweek is saying is correct, it will suddenly and instantaneously become the M21, with the M20 to be picked up on another alignment. I know the Brits do this, but then their exceptionalism encourages daft anomalies. I know of no other instance of this on this county's motorway network, other than the M1(J1)/M50(J3) which can be explained by the vague aspiration for the M50 to ultimately be a full circle orbital.

In any event, as per your post #8249 I couldn't care less if the call it the M666 or the M999, once they get on and build and open the thing.